Affinity in T1. Filling out the core.

[Wollblad]

Like the first versions of type 1 Madness, you are relying too heavy on the type 2 version of the deck. There is though one thing that needs to be kept in mind from type 2: this is an aggro deck. In my experience, this deck is also at its best of in type 1 when you can go aggro. That's why I have dropped Diciples, and thereby black as a color. The most important aspect is that it gives you a more stable mana base.

Workshop is definatly worth including. It gives acceleration, but formost it enables you to run Arcbound Crushers. Not great in type 2, but a real gigant in type 1 thanks to all moxen. Workshops also makes Tangle Wire more playable. Last, this deck can to nothing before sideboard against Tendrils decks. But if you run Workshops, you can also run Trinisphere in sideboard. They slow you down but will probably win you the game. In type 2 you use Blinkmoth Nexus as a way to store affinity counters safe from mass removal. In type 1, Mishra's Factory will probably be better. But is it good enough? Hardly, in type 1 you don't have the extra time it takes to put the counters on the factories. Artifact lands are generally bad, much because of Null Rod. In the States, I know you have many proxy-tournaments, but over here it is very uncommon. Thus half the field run Null Rod. As a result, at most I would run 4 Darksteel Citatel. The mana base in total becomes:
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Draksteel Citadel
2 fetch lands
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
Last notice on the mana base: I don't understand why people are using Glimmervoid. Are you so affraid of taking dammage that you cannot use City of Brass. A Hurkyl's Recall will stop the deck, but using Glimmervoids will eliminate all possibiliteis to replay all threats.

For the creature base, I have already mentioned Arcbound Crushers. Arcbound Ravager is also vital. To asnwere waSP's question: Arbound Workers dies from Skullclamp and grow your other creatures. You will have plenty mana of anyhow. But Frogmite is too weak for type 1, and Enforcer too just too slow. Genesis Chamber as better synnergi with Arcbound Crusher and generates targets for Skullclamp. Then I also run a Trike. Great to load counters onto an fire off if you opponent tries some kind off mass removal. And then there are Welders. Welders make broken things on there own, even more so with Gensis Chamber. I can see no motivation why not to run them MD. In total, my creature base looks like:
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravanger
3 Arcbound Crusher
4 Goblin Welder
1 Triskelion
2 Genesis Chamber

As already noticed, the deck needs something to slow the opponent down and Tangle Wire solves this partly, but not if your opponent starts and drops a Chalice for one or two. I have opted to include Mogg Salvage in main to deal with Null Rods and Chalice. Four Volcanics and two fetches usually find me a Mountain when needed. I cannot see the point of using draw sevens in a deck like this. If not drawn early, they will probably give the game away due to lack of disruption. The deck is better of to focus more on the Skullclamp engine which I have done by using Genesis Chamber. Thoughtcast is a great complement. Thirst is also OK, but it can be a bit hard to find 3 mana to spare. Here are my card drawing and utility cards:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
4 Skullclamp
2 Mogg Salvage
3 Thoughtcast
4 Tangle Wire

I have done some testing which have brought me to this deck list, but it probably needs some refinement. I would like to run 4 Arcbound Crushers, 3 Mogg Salvage, 4 Thoughcast and 3 Genesis Chamber, but there just isn't room enough and I'm not sure that I have made the right choices what to give priority and what to exclude.

[Vegeta2711]

I... honestly can't agree with any of that.



Disicple is one of the best cards in the deck and I constantly kill people with it. Unless dealt with immediately, even w/o Ravager on average it deals 4-5 points of damage. With Ravager it's more like 9-11, I don't see how a card that drains half your opponents life is really bad here.

The most important aspect is that it gives you a more stable mana base.

I've never had issues as far as colored mana goes, maybe getting a certain number of mana total against some decks, but I never had many problems with 'stability'.

The real problem with arguing against anything else in your deck, is it's not Affinity at all. The only Affinity thing your running is Thoughtcast, your build is far more like the german combo arcbound decks, except then you seemed to of cut the combo part.   Though I do question Goblin Welder, as they really don't have anything good to bring back except maybe Wire or Clamps.

If not drawn early, they will probably give the game away due to lack of disruption

Don't know if your expecting a late-game or what, but usually they're going to be cast turn 2 or 3 and your going to dump your hand on the table right after casting the Draw-7.

I don't understand why people are using Glimmervoid. Are you so affraid of taking dammage that you cannot use City of Brass.

It's a 5 color no drawback land. I don't see a real issue with it and I haven't seen a Hurkyll's used against me in the entire time I've been playing the deck.

[bebe]

I have to agree that Disciples belong. We have been testing the deck locally. In fact I spoke to Wu this weekend about this very arch type. There certainly are problems with Affinity in Type 1 but removing the Discdiples is not the answer. We have tested Therapies and Mana Leaks ( easy to cast early) in the build and still it seems to be inconsistent at best. As an aggro variant it performs well but suffers as most aggro decks do if you cannot finish your opponent off quickly. Certainly it has no answers for combo and at  the very least the Disciples can speed up the kill and give the deck a combo like feel as nyou gert from FCG.  

Again, like Vegeta, testing has not seen problems with the mana base. We aqctually use a few Dark Rits as well. Glimmervoids have worked fine.

I must say though that my personal build includes two Atogs as Ravangers 5-6. I also have been trying a few Shrapnel Blasts as finishers. I think you need to finish your opponent off as quickly as possible with this deck. I tried out the Therapy Duress as stated above but was not impressed with the results. I do run one Mind Twist though.

[Wollblad]

your build is far more like the german combo arcbound decks, except then you seemed to of cut the combo part.  Though I do question Goblin Welder, as they really don't have anything good to bring back except maybe Wire or Clamps.

The first part here is righ on target. The Arcbound part is superior to the affinity aspect. The is most consistent when you focus on growing your creatures and hit with them. Goblin Welder recurse Memory Jar but most important is that they Welder down tokens from Genesis Chamber and up for example a Crusher. The Chamber triggers, gives me a new token wich gives me a counter on the Crusher and a target to Skullklamp. In all this Disciple is good, but if you play Disciples, you wont get to this point as often as you otherwise do. Welders, Chamber and Arcbound creatures are part of a combination, Disciples 'just' deal damage.

Don't know if your expecting a late-game or what

With Wires and the inconsistency of the deck that has been mentioned in so many posts before mine, yes I do. At least so late that my opponent can win after I have played a draw seven.

I haven't seen a Hurkyll's used against me in the entire time I've been playing the deck

This is an experince of different meta games. Here Hurkyl's Recall is very common. Pernicious Deed is also played in abundace. But if you don't expect any of them, please run Glimmervoid. I just cannot see why to take a risk when it can be avoided.

I've never had issues as far as colored mana goes, maybe getting a certain number of mana total against some decks, but I never had many problems with 'stability'.

I agree I was a bit vague here. I need to find Mountains to be able to play Mogg Slavage which has prooven to be a great weapon against Chalice and Null Rod. Exception is against Suicide, but that matchup is usually won anyhow.

I know that I have deviated from the affinity part, but this is the best I think can be made out of the type 2 affinity deck. I cannot say that I find it good enogh. I wouldn't play with it in a tournament today.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I tested Crusher and the more Arcboundy style with this deck, but neither was to my liking. Disciples are simply too good. Also, by cutting Black you also lose Duress/Therapy and Demonic Tutor and even Dark Ritual if you're running it (personally I don't, but in a budget build, they belong). You're also weakening your draw base (which is absolutely CRITICAL in this deck) by making the spells less castable (Workshops). A 2/2 for 0 is fine in Type 1, as is a 4/4 for 2 or 3. If you test the more affility centred builds, you'll notice that you can usually dump your entire hand and drawn another 5-7 cards by turn 3.

I'm testing the Wires later this week. I cut Atogs because they're not woth cutting draw spells for. I agree that there needs to be an answer to Null Rod and Deed.

[MuzzonoAmi]

As much as I hate double posting, I do have conslusive results from my testing. Tangle Wire is out, Therapy is in. The Wires don't really do much other than slow you down, and since I've been getting consistent turn 3-4 wins without them (turns 6-7 with) I'm much more comfortable with the Therapies than with the Wires. What I really want is another Tutor or another draw-7. At the moment, I'm leaning Vampiric Tutor. Any other ideas?

[Vegeta2711]

I've nearly given up on any posted builds of Affinity, my old Wire builds I liked a lot, but just didn't have any room for MD anwsers and not enough brute power to avoid running them. I also can't get Duress or Therapy working well in the deck, so I gave up on the heavier black builds as well.

At this point I'm trying to fit Oxidize and Pyrite Spellbomb MD. I know I either want some real MD anwsers or FoW now.

[bebe]

The deck could use a few spoils of the Vault perhaps or Tainted Pacts. It is combo-aggro.

[Vegeta2711]

Spoils? Seriously? Why exactly...?

I mean I guess tutoring for a Clamp, Ravager or Disciple could be kind of cool. But I mean not only does it require black mana of all things, it takes a good chunk of life and isn't doing anything to your opponent. (Between all the draw cards, how many more 'lalala finding stuff' cards do we need?)

[bebe]

f you are playing it as a combo a Disciple or Ravanger can be game over. You are playing black anyway. In Type 1 a  win  a turn earlier can be crucial. I just think the Disciple build has to be looked at as a combo deck that beats you with an aggresive style of play. Not quite like Tog but similar in approach. Loss of life is not that big a factor when searching for four ofs.

[jpmeyer]

Here's what I've been working with:

        4 Glimmervoid
        3 Vault of Whispers
        3 Great Furnace
        2 Seat of the Synod
        1 Tolarian Academy

        4 Skullclamp
        1 Mana Vault
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald

        4 Ornithopter
        4 Arcbound Worker
        4 Disciple of the Vault
        4 Arcbound Ravager
        4 Frogmite
        4 Myr Enforcer

        4 Shrapnel Blast
        1 Windfall
        1 Timetwister
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Wheel of Fortune
        1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB:  4 Overload
SB:  4 Vendetta
SB:  4 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB:  4 Goblin Welder (don't know which of these to cut yet)

I was thinking the other day about Null Rod.  Null Rod is really just played in two decks: Fish and Madness.  Both of these decks ultimately have the same problem that they can't beat large creatures.  Therefore, Null Rod almost doesn't even matter unless it comes out turn, and you have a far, far greater chance of playing a turn 1 Ravager or Enforcer than they do of playing a turn 1 Null Rod.  Ravager trumps anything that their decks can put out, and Enforcer trumps anything Fish can do (and with a token, makes it impossible for Madness to trade.)

This is also why I think that Ornithopters and Workers are really important.  They let you get the combo-y kills like Genesis Chamber, but unlike Chamber they are very helpful rather than being liabilities against Null Rod aggro.  You can swing with an Enforcer and hold back with Worker and if you chump you buy a turn of life, possibly bring your Enforcer/Frogmite/Ravager out of the killable range of the other deck, and possibly shorten your clock as well.

The Goblin Welders in the SB are also to help against Null Rod aggro by making it even harder for them to be able to deal with your men, both by playing hell with stack tricks (with really ridiculous ones being like block your guy with Worker, damage on the stack, response switch for another Modular guy who is now 2/2) and by allowing you to keep your Enforcers around.

[MuzzonoAmi]

How have the Sharapnel Blasts and Ornithopters been for you? They're the biggest differences between your build and mine, and I haven't really found either helpful. Those are the slots I'm running Duress and Cabal Therapy in, which have been absolute gold against decks like Germbus and Hulk. My sideboard is still quite fluid, but I'm currently running 4 Overload, 4 Engineered Plague, 3 Tormod's Crypt, and 4 Broodstars.

[waSP]

JP, how is Genesis Chamber a liability against Null Rod aggro?  It makes your Disciples INCREDIBLE, almost completely tying up their attacks.  They lose life for ANY artifacts that leave play.  I found it to be extremely good against Fish and I haven't had a chance to test heavily against Madness.  

I will definitely see if the Worker is better in that slot though.  
I would think Worker would be better when trying to race someone, giving the bonus AND drawing the cards, something that Genesis Chamber doesn't do.  
Double Genesis Chamber is a lot stronger than double Arcbound Worker.
Also, they come down earlier, fueling the Affinity of Frogmite and Enforcer.

Don't you just want Crop Rotation really bad?  I feel like its worth dropping a couple of Great Furnaces and Vaults of Whispers for the Crop Rotate -> Academy play.  I don't think I've ever lost a game where Academy has seen play.

I tried playing around with a B/U Therapy/Clamp build that played in the MaDragon vein, combo with a creature base.  Lots of Dark Rituals made for a combo'y feel, which combined with Tendrils gave a combo win.  The build was too inconsistent and I have since scrapped it for a more conventional aggro build with FoW.

[jpmeyer]

Let's say you're trying to race a flying Aquamoeba with your Myr Enforcer.  We're also assuming that he has Null Rod already, since if he doesn't you probably would've already blown him out.  If this opponent Madness's out say, a Rootwalla, he's got another threat coming and now he also has a chump blocker from his Myr which should enable him to win the race.  You on the other hand can't take advantage of your Genesis Chamber anywhere nearly as well since you're restricted to just your Frogmites and Enforcers (since Ornitophters can't attack for damage,) you can't block (and therefore chump,) and you can't activate Skullclamp or Ravager.

[waSP]

We're assuming he got his Null Rod turn 2, no?  If that's true, the Aquamoeba scenario is less likely.  He spent turn 1 casting his Rootwalla, which traded with my Frogmite.  So he spends turn 2 playing Null Rod.  I try to force (he has the counter backup I assume).  So now he has a disadvantageous position (he probably pitched to 'moeba to his force).  I spent my first two turns playing out my threats and seizing a tempo advantage.  It's not as terrible a situation as it looks.

I must admit, your mana is much more susceptible to Null Rod.

[jpmeyer]

The first problem is that Rootwalla kills Frogmite, not trades with it.  So if you were dumb and chump blocked, even if he does Force back when he casts Null Rod (pitching his Aquamoeba,) he's won the game right here since you're locked down.

The situations that I'm looking at are like as Affinity, you're going turn 1, mana, Genesis Chamber and they respond with Rootwalla.  You spend your next turn casting 2 guys, and they cast Null Rod.  You've got an advantage right now, but those 2 tokens are all you're gonna get.  They can cast a Wild Mongrel or Aquamoeba now (getting a token) and unless you had a Ravager on turn 2 instead of say, an Enforcer, you can't make any kind of attacks into that without getting horribly unfavorable trades, but you also can't sit around since time is on their side.

If that Genesis Chamber was an Arcbound Worker, your turn 1 play could've been Worker, Frogmite (rather than just Chamber or just Frogmite) and now you've set up much stronger into your attack.  You can get first blood with your Frogmite and Worker and be in great shape for future attacks, because even if they cast Null Rod now they will be at 14 and facing down in all likelihood, 3 strong creatures rather than being at 20 life staring down a bunch of tokens.

Furthermore, if you don't run lots of artifact lands and don't run lots of cheap artifact creatures, you become very dependent on your Genesis Chamber to give you easy Skullclamp draws, higher artifact counts for Affinity, and more stuff to sacrifice to Ravager.

[waSP]

Against Madness, how much stuff do you need to sac to ravager.  It needs to be a 5/5.  In the long run, Disciple wins a lot more effectively than Ravager (unless you're playing 'zerk).

I assume I'm playing Skullclamp in my deck and I'm going to equip it on my Frogmite to be able trade with his Rootwalla.  The first turn play is almost NEVER Genesis Chamber.  Unless you have a terrible hand or a busted one, you lead with what you want them to counter, so as to make use of your counterspells, unmolested.

My mana does NOT get wrecked by Null Rod, yours does.  I can still cast my draw spells and more threats.  This is a big difference in our builds.  Ask the combo players what the difference between 9 lands and 5 lands is.

I have no idea how U/G Madness locks me down, I'm sorry.  Did he cast Smokestack?  He'll cast a few creatures and if he has Wonder, it'll be a little harder to race.  Hell, maybe he pitched Wonder to that Force, and I can race him with my Disciple.

Instead of running Ornithopter, I run Thoughtcast to compliment my FoW count.  So the 2 cards I would have gotten from sac'ing the 0/2 to Ravager I get earlier with a blue spell.  The Genesis Chamber allows me to "go off," while fitting in the strategy.  I'm going to test Arcbound Workers in those slots, to see if they do make it faster.  Initial results tell me that I need more acceleration to make the Workers better (Dark Ritual isn't going to be added because the deck taps for blue too much), so unless I notice a change in their function in the next couple of days, it'll be Chamber for me.

I think you have a very nice *aggressive* build of Affinity.  I don't think you should bombast a more controlling version with taunts and anecdotal evidence.  It just makes me want to fire back.

[Vegeta2711]

Request for this thread to be closed, because it's not serving any further purpose at this time.