[Deck] SkelAtog

[goober]

I haven't really posted much here but I had a thought and just want to throw it out there.

SkelAtog aka Probably not The Best Damned Deck in the Land
By Goober, even though most of the credit goes to everyone who wrote about Tog

Mana:
5 Fetchland
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropicial Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria.
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Mana Crypt

Spells:

3 Tog

Draw:
4 Skeletal Scrying
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral  
1 Gush

Permission:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
1 Mind Twist

Sweetness:
3 Cunning Wish
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mystical Tutor

SB:
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Coffin Purges
2 Shamans
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Oxidize
1 Firestorm  
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Berserk

Basicly This is a typical Tog build, with the Intuition/AK/Deep Anal drawing taken out.  I have found Skeletal Scrying to be a great source of card draw.  Intuition for AK will usually net you 3, then sometimes an additional 4 if you draw another AK.  Scrying nets you 3 usually, but it can
go much higher, and Scrying for 3 costs 4, where Intuition AK costs 5.  This also can be done off drains or crypts early for 5 or more which is always fun.  If they draw the other AK and do it for 4, they will have netter 7 for 7, but needed to draw an AK and an Intuition.  This can net 7
for 8/9 and it can be done off one.  Also the risk of Drawing just 1 or 2 AKs with no Intuitions is lessened.  Intuition #2 usually isn't usually helpful, unless you need a Force or Drain really bad.

Taking those out opened some nice slots for Deed #2, 2 more Duresses, Vampiric Tutor, and Gush.  I have always wanted Gush in Hulk for obvious reasons, and now it has room.  I am not sure about the Deed and Tutor. The tutor might want to be in the sideboard for when you really need a card.  I think these 2 are the most open for moving.  The Duresses are golden though I always love first turn duress, except against Welder.

Now for Sideboarding

Regular Hulk:
+ 1 Fact
+ 3 REB
- 1 Shaman
- 1 Crypt
- 2 Deed

Belcher:
+ 2 Shaman
- 1 Mind Twist
- 1 not sure  (I am thinking Pearl just because the colorless doesn't seem that important)

U/R gay:
+ 3 REB
+ 2 BEB
- 1 Shaman
- 3 Scrying (your life total is too important here for multiples)
- 1 Mana Crypt (due to life being important, scrying being gone, and the null rod)

FCG:
+ 2 BEB
+ 1 Fof
- 2 Scrying
- 1 Duress

Drain Slaver:
+ 2 Shaman
+ 2 REB
+ 2 BEB
- 4 Duress
- 1 Tog
- 1 Mana Crypt

Workshop Slaver:
+ 2 Shamans
+ 2 BEB
+ 1 Oxidize
- 4 Duress
- 1 Mind Twist

Draw7:
+ 3 REB
- 2 not sure (i'm working on it)
- 1 Mind Twist

Dragon:
+ 2 REB
+ 1 Purge
- 2 Deed
- 1 Shaman

These are all very tenative and need more testing.  All I can really do to test is some random games on Workstation, so I am sure there are some holes.  I am not sure if this is better than the Intuition AK version, but it is probably worth looking at.

[xrizzo]

I would think that value Scrying adds to this deck is countered by the removing cards from graveyard aspect of the deck...

This deck also has no way to gain life like Keeper or EBA - so the life loss combined with fetchlands may add up to enough that it hurts some matchups enough to swing over the 50-50 balance.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't know if Scrying is the way to go for Tog, although I like the additional space it brings to the deck. The problem I see with Scrying is that it doesn't allow Tog to Draw first and ask questions later like AK does. It also opens up additional weaknesses vs Aggro, a deck like this could really use a 4th Psychatog MD along with the 2nd Deed. U/g Madness or FCG will be all over that reduced life total.

I also think your MD looks a little weak. Why are you using Vampiric Tutor over Mystical Tutor? Your already at a premium for life in your deck and it doesn't pitch to FoW, which is a lot lower than HULK. I'd put Vampiric back into the SB where it belongs.

[Razvan]

Agains Welder, Duress can nail one of their critical Draw Spells. Let me tell you, Workshop decks lose a lot of strength if they don't resolve a draw spell or a threat early on.

As for the Scryings, I really can't decide if I like them in Tog. The Intuition/AK engine seems a bit more synergistic with the Tog, filling up the graveyard, and the point xrizzo makes about life... it could be a consideration.

Otherwise, it could be interesting.

[Kerz]

People say the dissynergy between Tog and 1 Scrying isn't there. This is true.
People say the dissynergy between Tog and FOUR SCRYINGS is too great for the deck to ever do anything. This is also true, sadly. Also, Tog likes to cast Yawgmoth's Will sometimes too.

This isn't happening. 2 Deed main isn't very cool either, seeing just Zerking the Tog over is more optimal.

[Thug]

One thing to be noted in the synergy between scrying and cunning wish. If you remove a drain and a fow somewhere in the game your wishes already get a lot better. And this does not mess up your wills (you should have enough cards to remove that won't affect your will anyway).

But even removing your Ancestrall can be quite decent since there's a good change you'll draw a wish, and you only have a single will, which you often don't want to burn yet. And the Ancestrall will get back to your grave after you've wished for and played it anyway.

And lifeloss in pretty irrelevant in the current meta, there are only few decks left that you need to race, in which every lifepoint is important. So you could see the adittion of scryings as a metagame choice.

I'm not saying scrying are good in tog, I have never tried it. But I just want to give it a fair change (instead of the card being burned down immediatly)

U/R gay:
+ 3 REB
+ 3 BEB
- 1 Shaman
- 4 Scrying (your life total is too important here for multiples)
- 1 Mana Crypt (due to life being important, scrying being gone, and the null rod)

FCG:
+ 3 BEB
+ 1 Fof
- 4 Scrying

I don't think cutting all four is a good idea, both these deck you often want to race, and you need cardraw for that.


Koen

[BreathWeapon]

The people who play 2 Deed main usually do it for a good reason. If you play in metagames with lots of Fish, FCG and U/g Madness, all unfavorable match ups for HULK, then that 2nd Deed is a gold mine. Steve may think that Deed is just an "oh shit button," but i've found it to be a vital inclusion for "the land of the real." It also creates extra space in the side board, which is a plus. Too many people are blowing off the 2nd MD Deed as a tactical misunderstanding of HULK, which is getting tired. Unless somebody has come up with a way to improve the Fish, FCG, and U/g Madness match ups with something else, i'll be packing Deed #2.

[goober]

I just forgot about Mystical, I agree it should replace the Vamp.

I added the extra Deed because the Scryings hurt the matchup vs aggro, and Deed strengthens them.  I think it is overall weaker, but the Deed has saved me often.  Draining an Enforcer into a Deed for 5 or so is always good fun.  While it is better to Zerk over the top of creatures, you can't always do it, so it is the OH Shit button which makes racing easier.

Scrying works fine with Will, you will have Drain, Force, Duress, Fetches, and Brainstorms to remove without hurting your Will.

Scrying's dissynergy with tog is there, but it is not that bad.  A Scrying for X adds X+.5 to your tog, while an AK adds 5/6.5 depending on if it is your first or second.  So a decent sized Scrying is about the same as casting an AK after Intuition.  But usually you just Berserk so the difference between 30/16 and 26/14 doesn't matter.  

I am very unsure of the sideboard, so I will be testing that a lot and updating when I can think of better options, or when I hear some.  I think I might leave in 2 Scryings against FCG and take out 1 duress, even though duress can nab the chain itself.  Just a thought

[walkingdude]

With 4 SS you are going to remove some very good cards form the game fairly often.  Maybe you should go up to 4 wishes then you would be able to get SS ancestral with impunity knowing that when you remove it you empower 4 instant speed regrows in your deck.

[xrizzo]

One thing to be noted in the synergy between scrying and cunning wish. If you remove a drain and a fow somewhere in the game your wishes already get a lot better. And this does not mess up your wills (you should have enough cards to remove that won't affect your will anyway).
Koen

If you have an early tog, you can also remove cards to make your wishes better.  It is not uncommon to wish for an early 2nd ancestral.  

It is true that by the numbers, Tog is hurt when you move from AK/int to Scrying... two things take a heavy hit: your life, and your graveyard.

Lets see what an early situation might look like:
With Ak/Int
2U for intuition (get 3 AKs) (+3 cards in yard, +0 in hand)
1U for AK (draw 3 cards) (+2 cards in hand, +1 in yard)

Total Mana investment: 5
Total Life investment: 0
Total new cards in hand: 2
Total Tog Growth: +5

With Scrying
3B for scrying (draw 3 cards) (+2 cards in hand, -2 cards from yard)

Total Mana investment: 4
Total Life investment: 3
Total new cards in hand: 2
Total Tog Growth: +2


I think these scenarios are close to what will happen on turn 2-3.  (tough to get much more than 4 mana and 3 cards in the yard for scrying)  You can see that although the Scrying has a more efficient mana cost, you are losing 3 life yourself, and taking away 3 tog damage as well.  (a 6 point swing)

Of course, later in the game, you can only AK one or two more times (the 2nd time through a Cwish) and that limits you somewhat - but Tog doesn't require many more cards in the yard to just win the game...

Scrying still seems more synergistic with Keeper or EBA.  I love the card - but this isn't the right fit.

[paradigm]

As the previous post pointed out, Scrying does not add to Tog's gameplan in terms of growing the Tog.

An analysis of the Tog and Control Slaver matchups shows the flaws of the four scrying (or any scrying) plan when played out.

In the Tog mirror, a lack of Accumulated Knowledge allows your opponent to cast theirs unimpeded - this is key here since their engine while out as strong - it usually goes for seven cards max sans Will, is faster. The lifeloss hurts not only versus aggro, but here as well. When one sinks to a point (from Fetches, Forces and Scrying) where a Tog need not be Berserked to be lethal, you've got a problem, and scrying can get you to that point.

The Scrying does not become stronger in this critical matchup because you can't use it too often, and it will not open up a much bigger hole in the midgame than the AK engine would - both in terms of tempo and immediate gain. It takes either an early Drain (which may not have enough cards in grave) or it becomes a midgame card - where it becomes less useful in game one. In game two, it cannot be Red Elemental Blasted - but there it doesn't open a big enough hole up for you to take advantage - any card advantage can be shot by an REB to a Tog, which although won't happen every game, is something you must keep in mind.

Against Shop (both versions - and combo) a side effect that becomes nasty is the fact that Scrying cannot be pitched to a Force of Will. Talking about Cunning Wish manipulation, you want to maximize the wishes by keeping them available for instant hate - especially in the Shop, FCG, and Dragon matchups. An extra Drain or even Ancestral cannot solve such decks the way the specific hosers can. You want to Maximize the Cunning Wish's potential throughout the match - if you need draw, that's what Fact or Fiction is there for, but otherwise the Wishes versatility shines through being able to get hosers and, of course, the finisher.

Remember also that Intuition can also be used for thin the deck of mana and to fetch Deep Analysis in the mirror - factors that cannot be overlooked, adding the tutors will slow the progress of the deck. Also, Scrying and Will is also unsynergistic in that a Scrying is not really a good cast off a Will, much less the card loss.

Bottom line:

Scrying still seems more synergistic with Keeper or EBA. I love the card - but this isn't the right fit.

[Covetous]

This may sound blasphemous, but what about including BOTH cards...

For instance, you could run only 2 intuitions (yeah, I know it's so passe but whatever) and no deep A.  Then you could run 2 scryings--that way you can drain into one turn 3-5 without worrying about not being able to draw cards against aggro for fear of life loss.  

This would make the deck look something like this:
Mana:
5 Fetchland
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropicial Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria.
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Mana Crypt

Spells:
3 Tog

Draw:
2 Skeletal Scrying
2 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral

Permission:
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Duress
1 Mind Twist

Sweetness:
3 Cunning Wish
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

This removes the 2nd MD deed, but I'm not convinced that it's necessary.  Yes, it can be the much-needed stabilizer, but it can also be the card you topdeck when you need to give tog +2/+2 to win right now.  However, this build seems to lack some synergy present in the 3 intuition/2 deep A builds.  But, it does have the power of scrying, which may make up for it.  Either way, 4 scryings is too much.  Even in GermBus, with 2-4 exalted angels to ease the life loss, they only run 3 MD scryings (plus one in the SB).  How can a no-lifegain Tog deck with less removal hope to run 4?

[jpmeyer]

The other problem (and this is also why FoF is better than Scrying) is because you cannot cast a large Scrying early because you don't have enough cards.  It's conceivable to cast a turn 1 Intuition and then a turn 2 AK for 3 cards, but it's much more difficult to get the 3 cards into your gravyard by turn 2 in order to cast a comparable Scrying.