Draw-7 Variant

[combo_dude]

I'm wondering whether draw-7 cards are inherently broken or not. Plus, I love combo cards, as can be guessed. So:

CARDNAME
XUU
Sorcery
Each player shuffles his or her graveyard and hand into their library. Then each player draws X plus four cards.

Is this an inherently broken mechanic, or not? If so, can it be recovered with a limit on X?

[combo_dude]

CURRENT VERSION:

CARDNAME
XUU
Sorcery
Each player shuffles his or her graveyard and hand into their library. Then each player draws X plus four cards.

*       *       *       *       *

Changes:

[Jacob Orlove]

So this gives both players 4 new cards for UU? That seems just too strong, especially if you play it early enough, with any kind of acceleration.

[combo_dude]

Good point. I want a draw-7 with an X CMC so that the player has to make a decision about how strongly to push it, as well as when to play it. Is there a CMC that will make this fair without straying into Temporal Cascade levels of over-costedness?

[Jacob Orlove]

The problem is that lowering the extra cards means that you can basically mindtwist them for cheap, while raising it can make the card too strong. How about something like this:

XUUU
Sorcery
Each player shuffles his or her graveyard and hand into their library. Then each player draws 2X cards.

[Guardian]

combo_dude:
Trust me, I tried numerous times to come up with a decent draw-7 card (see Kaervek's Revenge), and it's next to impossible to desing a decent draw-7 that isn't broken. They are either completely bad, either completely broken. These effects are so game breaking that to make up for that, you need a great drawback. Life loss is not relevant because when you start to cast these, you intend to win. This means they can't really be black, except when you have to sacrifice everything, but then, the dynami9c and the intent of the card changes. When they're blue, they are too good (pitch to FoW comes to mind).

So you either end up with a super drawback or a CC that is too high. Either way, nobody end up usind those. You mentioned Temporal Cascade. When you pay 9 mana, this effectively a Timetwister, but three times more expensive (from a mana standpoint:)).

So, you'll have to think a lot to make one that is decent but playable.

Jacob:
By 2X, you mean twice the mana you paid?
Also, since it's heavily costed, would there be a way to make it an instant? That's pushing it, but since it's so expensive, it would make the mana drawback more manageable.

[Jacob Orlove]

Yeah, I mean X + X cards.

[Shadow-Walker]

what if we made it:
2u
Instant
Play this only during an opponent's turn.
Each player discards his or her hand.  Then each player draws 7 cards.

[Jacob Orlove]

what if we made it:
2u
Instant
Play this only during an opponent's turn.
Each player discards his or her hand.  Then each player draws 7 cards.

That's still too strong, even if you make it "play this only when your opponent could play a sorcery" to avoid endstep brokenness.

[PucktheCat]

What about only during their upkeep?  That means they almost certainly get first crack at the cards (they won't be tapped out).  It is still probably broken though.

Leo

[Jacob Orlove]

I don't think any draw-7 for less than 4 mana will ever be anything other than broken. 2UU is the minimum cost here.

[Ephraim]

Would it be more or less powerful if it read:


Instant

Play ~this~ only during an opponent's upkeep.
Each player may discard any number of cards. Then each player draws cards equal to seven minus the number of cards in that player's hand.

That way, you can't force your opponent to discard their good stuff, but they can get rid of their crap and draw up to seven as well.

[Guardian]

Ephraim:
Your last suggestion is too powerful as it allows you to build an optimal hand by discarding unwanted lands and stuff like that. Even if you opponent gets to use his cards first, he won't get another turn, so he has to kill you right away when you cast this.

Also, this is too much one sided. Suppose you have a crappy hand of 7 and your opponent has a good hand of 7, you get to change all your cards for 3 mana, which only one is colored, and it is blue. Your opponent is likely to keep his cards because he thinks his hand is good.

And you can do horrible things turn one with this. Imagine going first land, mox, mox, pass. Cast this during upkeep and get ready for business next turn. First turn Timetwister can be very good, but you can stall. With this, you prepare your next turn, a winning turn with a fresh hand while your opponent has not even played a single card, even before is first draw phase.

Mind you, combo could very easily break this card. Like I've said before, draw-7 are NEVER remotely fair when they don't have some kind of drawback, which have to be very punishing (Kaervek's Revenge). I like Revenge because I designed it in the old forums, but the discussion lasted something like 3 or 4 pages, so I know what I'm talking about. Wait until Matt see this thread and you will hear the same thing as Jacob or me said: draw-7 are broken by nature or plainly suck.

[rvs]

draw-7 are broken by nature or plainly suck.

Oh so true.

I wish people would stop trying to print a new twister, walk or ancestral. They're broken. Sure, we love them, but that doesn't change their nature.

[Jebus]

Yeah, the only way you can make one that isn't stupid is to come up with one that is unplayable like Temporal Cascade or one that is on a creature like Dragon Mage.

You can't reach a middle ground.  Diminishing Returns is close to the middle ground, and even that is pretty much too good.

[dandan]

I think that it is possible to make a fair Draw 7 (see Kaervel's Revenge) but you have to look outside the CC. It is not possible to make a Draw 7 with a sensible CC unless you limit it in some other way. Diminishing Returns tried this but combo can still use it.

Some suggestions

Draw 7 cards or cards equal to the number of creatures in your graveyard, whichever is smaller. (Green/Black flavour)

You draw X cards your opponent draws up to Y cards where X is the smallest hand size and Y is the largest hand size. (Blue/Red)

Sorcery speed and you cannot win this turn

Enchantment that you gives you 7 cards next upkeep (but you discard your hand when you cast it) (another Greenish card but could be Blue)

Draw cards equal to the number of creatures you control (White/Green)

Opponent chooses your 7 cards!! (Jester's Mask style)

Fact or Fiction style splitting (must be Sorcery to keep the mana cost sensible, even then it would be high)

Sac a land to pay for each drawn card

It is very very hard to balance the huge effect so that the cost is not too high but not too low. Making the disadvantage hurt combo or be unworkable in combo is probably a good starting point though.

[Jacob Orlove]

Sorcery speed and you cannot win this turn

Wow, that's a neat idea.

[Ephraim]

It doesn't work, though. Even if it states that you can't win this turn, if you reduce your opponent's life to below zero, he'll lose as a state based effect, basically first thing on his turn.

[dandan]

It would work if you made it an Enchantment Draw 7 that gave your opponent(s) Platinum Angel-like protection. The Enchantment could have Fading, or not depending on how you feel!!

My point was simply that Draw 7s cannot be reasonably balanced using mana cost alone. However with some imagination it is possible although still very very difficult.

More Draw 7 drawbacks (obviously just off the top of my head)

Opponent gets free FoW

Opponent can draw from their Sideboard instead of from their library (prevents instant decking and also is a very interesting drawback)

Opponent can pay a huge cost to counter the Draw 7 (discard hand for example)

You can only use black mana to pay for Black spells, blue for Blue, etc until end of turn (hurts fast mana)

Opponent can chose their 7 cards!! (I like this idea!!)

All your spells cost 1 more until end of turn

Opponent can cast spells free until end of turn

[Shadow-Walker]

You cant cast spells this turn?