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Author Topic: Workshop/Drain Slavery attempt  (Read 2030 times)
Razvan
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« on: May 31, 2004, 03:23:13 pm »

This might be odd, actually, but I feel like it was a natural evolution.

I have been playing Workshop Slavery for a while now, and I noticed a few problems with it.

#1) Lack of Workshop brokenness in opening hand is bad.
#2) Overall, this deck doesn't have enough control to wrestle it away from the faster combo decks. You rely on getting your combo before them.
#3) Chalice of the Void is only good at X = 2.

#1 needs minimization, but it's not simple.

#2 might be a bit of a bias, since I went something like 1-19 against Bryan Finch's Dragon deck, even though, against a lot of other combo decks, I can work faster than they can.

#3 is what brings me here. Chalice for zero is utterly random, Chalice for 1 kills 9 of your cards, Chalice for 3 completely decimates your draw engine.

Chalice is way too random a card to have a good effect in this deck. Others might disagree, but this card is only really good at the 2-slot. So the question becomes whether it's worth it to have this card just for this particular scenario.

After making a lot of bad plays (playing spells with cc 1 or 3 after a particular chalice for 1 or 3), I was thinking that maybe it's not worth having it at that point.

This deck needs the welders and draw cards more than letting the opponent not have their 1 and 3 cc spells, even if you do not end up countering your own spells, having them in hand is pretty deadly. Without a welder in play, the Chalice is there to stay, so there is sometimes no possibility of recovery.

So Chalices are out for now. The question becomes what to replace it with. I realized that one card that could be tried in the deck was Mana Drain.

Yes, this would bring it to the point of being almost a Control Slaver deck with a weird mana base. This is true, except this is not necessarily a bad thing.

Let's see a list I recently tried:

11 Control

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 Mindslaver

14 Draw

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Memory Jar
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Windfall
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Ancestral Recall
0 Wheel of Fortune

7 Creatures

4 Goblin Welder
1 Memnarch
1 Pentavus
1 Triskelion

11 Artifact Mana

5 Moxen
2 Gilded Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

17 Lands

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
4 Shivan Reef
4 Island
1 Polluted Delta

15 Sideboard

3 Viashino Heretic
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wheel of Fortune

Problems with this.

Total workshop targets = -5 or -6

Taking out a Gilded Lotus or 2 (depending on build) and 4 Chalice of the Void reduces the amount of spells that can be cast using the Workshop. Now, we have still 2 Lotus, 3 Midslaver, 3-6 Critters (including sideboard), Memory Jar, as well as Mana Vault and Sol Ring.

Now, this might be environment dependent, but I see a lot of Trinisphere played around here, so it even helps cast your 0-cc stuff under such a situation. Meh.

Testing is still in it's infancy (I had a pretty serious problem this weekend where I almost got killed, thus it's a bit on hiatus), but I think this has the potential to combine the 2 builds. Not necessarily make it better than them, just a lot less vulnerable to either.

I am still thinking on how to tweak it.

Anyhow, one discussion still will cause a headache.

Windfall vs. Timetwister vs. Wheel of Fortune

In the end, the Wheel got dropped.

Wheel of Fortune vs. Windfall

This one is a bit tougher to explain, so bear with me. You only need to resolve one spell off this. Be it another draw spell, a slaver, a welder, or whatever, you need to resolve one spell. Drawing extra cards is nice, but since your opponent will draw them too, chances are that they will find a solution for your spell.

Also, you only have limited mana to work with. Spending 3 for the Draw-7 spell, and 1-7 for the threat will not leave you with much control to counter  the solution, even with a Mana Drain in hand. For this reason, I think the Windfall is superior. You draw fewer cards, but chances are you will find something you need, and your opponent might not find a solution. A windfall for 2-3 cards is not uncommon (when your hand is empty), and it's generally an extra Thirst for Knowledge in hand.

I felt a lot safer for everyone to draw 2-3-4 cards, instead of 7, as per Wheel.

That's what it comes down to. I am not sure if I got my point across, but yeah, that was that. Plus Windfall is blue.

Wheel of Fortune vs. Timetwister

This was another hard choice, and something as trivial as the Timetwister being blue won it.

Wheel has one major advantage. It gets stuff in graveyards, artifacts primarily (to weld in/out). Timetwister doesn't do that, but it also counters more graveyard reliant decks (Dragon, other Workshop decks). In the end, that is useful, and in my opinion, more useful.

Yes, Wheel gets slaver and big critters in the graveyard, and that's why I put it in the sideboard, if you REALLY need another outlet for them. This might prove to be a mistake in the long run. I shall see.
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JuJu
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« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2004, 04:54:49 pm »

Well there are a few things.
First did you ever think of Wheel vs. FoF? I don't run FoF in my build cause I can't pop it off a Gilded(I love these btw) and I think Draw Sevens are just so much more effective. Bringing me to another point.
Wouldn't run more Gilded Lotus' make Mana Drain easier to run? I kind of like the idea of combining the two decks together but there's one thing that keeps going through my head. "Is the deck trying to do too many things?" I think you're trying to do too many things IMO which makes this too different. how I see it is

Drain Slaver is Tog with different cards
Workshop Slaver is everything Stax should've been

and one thing I've been noticing is people running Shamans main, Iunno if you want to try this or not but think about it.
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« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2004, 07:45:00 pm »

Trying to combine two good decks to make a better one rarely works, and confuses the deck and it's gameplan. For example, the draw 7 argument should be moot because all three belong in Shop slaver, and adding Mana Drain only confuses its gameplan.

Quote
So Chalices are out for now. The question becomes what to replace it with. I realized that one card that could be tried in the deck was Mana Drain.

Yes, this would bring it to the point of being almost a Control Slaver deck with a weird mana base. This is true, except this is not necessarily a bad thing.


Mana Drain is a terrible option for the deck simply because it is so tempermental. Discussing the Gilded Lotus leading to easier Drains, if you have a Gilded out, you should be accelerating your draw and seize the beatdown role, not switch roles.

Your overall role is beatdown using Force to power through your threats (ideally - although there are must-counter spells), and your mana allowance every turn is meant to accelerate your spells out. Mana Drain also disrupts the use of Workshop. Again, bearing in mind that you're using Gilded to power your Draw engine or kill cards, a first turn Workshop means third turn Drain up, at which case you do not need the boost of Mana Drain mana. In addition you can't control the game without losing your tempo as the beatdown.

Consider your ideal. Turn two Mana Drain using the mana for TFK the next turn. Seems fine enough. However the idea here is that you're trying to pressure the control player through a barrage of threats. That's why you need the full array of three-mana Draw 7s in Workshop slaver - so you'll force one through - and essentially, that's all you need to get started. You're trying to force through the TFK on their turn to leave them vulnerable on yours. By waiting for a spell for ther reactive Mana Drain, you lose the oppurtunity to play two draw spells, and therefore, slow your own development.

Quote
#1) Lack of Workshop brokenness in opening hand is bad.
#2) Overall, this deck doesn't have enough control to wrestle it away from the faster combo decks. You rely on getting your combo before them.
#3) Chalice of the Void is only good at X = 2.

#1 needs minimization, but it's not simple.

#2 might be a bit of a bias, since I went something like 1-19 against Bryan Finch's Dragon deck, even though, against a lot of other combo decks, I can work faster than they can.

#3 is what brings me here. Chalice for zero is utterly random, Chalice for 1 kills 9 of your cards, Chalice for 3 completely decimates your draw engine.


I believe you are misinterpreting Chalice's strengths. Going first, Chalice for zero or one has its strengths. A Chalice for zero after you've had an oppurtunity to drop moxen is random - but is an option which slows the opponent severely, as well as skews the power level of a given hand.

However, should you not have that option, Chalice for one or three remains powerful. Right now, with the metagame giving strength to combo, Fish, Hulk, and both slavers, Chalice for one slows down their engine - and except for the combo matchups, allows you to go the beatdown route in a manner that hurts your opponent more than you.

Chalice for three stops your draw engine. Against Hulk, it essentially wins the game.

Your testing against Dragon shows that Dragon can easily play around Chalice for two, granted. But agaisnt Draw 7 and Two-land Belcher, getting an early Chalice goes a long way to buying you enough time to get a Slaver active - here you are not the beatdown at the onset of the match, you are the control, if you try to out-combo them, you will fail miserably.

The idea with Chalice is that you use it not as a prison-lock tool where you're trying to stop their win, but as disruption. As you're beginning to power out threats, dropping Chalice for zero or one does one of the following - it either slows their development, and thus, their ability to stop your threats, or it prevents their utility options (i.e. Brainstorm), thus also slowing their options for keeping up with your speed. You're not trying to use it as a I-win-the-game card - although that is certainly an option. Tossing is for a lower option doesn't win the game alright, but it's meant to slow them more than it slows you.\

By practicing using the Chalice purely as a disruption tool (unless a superior option presents itself - the idea is that you're not waiting for one to appear) to slow your opponent down, you will find that it becomes more useful if used correctly.

Also, addressing your sideboard.

Quote
3 Viashino Heretic
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Duplicant
1 Platinum Angel
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wheel of Fortune


You lack higher number of Red Elemental Blasts, Gorilla Shamans, and Trinisphere, which contribute to your woes against various decks. Many of these cards (Wheel, the creatures) are only there because the deck is so confused as to what it's trying to do that it must leave out ideal cards.
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defector
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« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2004, 08:04:37 pm »

I view chalice a little differently than you do, but I play slavery a little diferently, I guess.  Against 2 land belcher and fish, i side out slavers and welders and side in Platinum Angel and Collusus and trinisphere.  I will play beatdown here and let theslaver lock go.  Chalice for zero or 1 is huge here.  Against Tog chalice for three means I win unless they maindeck shaman whic means that they have to run red.  3 color tog simply dies, you don't need to resolve draw spells, just topdeck to pentavus and/or memnarch and beat them down.  If they have shaman then you have a critical counter war that generally decides the game barring an active slaver.  slavery has been a huge challenge for me because i feel that the deck gives itself easily to "misassignment of role equals game loss", so my appraoch may be unorthodox, but I feel I'm exploring along the right line.  Against r/g i side out the chalices and bring in angle, 3sphere.  I don't know if this helps, but it's the result of my testing/meta.  Conjunction of the two builds is intriguing but I feel it opens greater risk to null rod.dec and requires 4 G-lotus.
good luck,
defector

P.S. I don't like windfall but run it anyway, and I feel all other draw sevens are necessary.
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Liam
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« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2004, 09:45:13 pm »

If you're going to go add control elements into the deck, you have to realize you're slowing down your deck, in which case you have to concede that you can be raced and run removal.  I've toyed with a deck sort of like this, and I've found 4 cunning wish with a strong element of instant removal in the sideboard to be the most efficient (especially since I store my Skeletal Scrying, Fact or Fiction, Vampiric Tutor and a dose of random tech there as well).

I've mostly abandoned the deck, because it loses to 'tog and has a hard time with dedicated aggro (read: lots of creatures) while not really gaining alot in the other matchups.
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PucktheCat
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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2004, 10:20:06 pm »

The most obvious argument against this innovation hasn't been presented yet.  Mishra's Workshop doesn't produce U.

It seems to me that in the roughly 1 in 4 starting hands that will have both a Workshop and a Drain one or the other is effectively going to be prevented by simple lack of land drops from having an effect on the game until turn 3.

Basically, quite apart from any issues of how Drain interacts with the rest of the deck, its interaction with Workshop itself is bad enough to make the whole concept questionable.

Leo
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Liam
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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2004, 10:51:48 pm »

Quote from: PucktheCat
The most obvious argument against this innovation hasn't been presented yet.  Mishra's Workshop doesn't produce U.


While this sucks, the more major issue is the mana curve has no 4cc artifacts.  Missing the open UU second turn is tolerable if you can use all 4 mana.  The only exception is second turn gilded lotus with a mox or sol ring, which changes the equation again since it means you still have UU open on the second turn (well UUU but you'll never use all 3) and can also burn a Cunning Wish or TFK at your opponent's eot.

That being said, even in my version running 3 gilded loti, getting a workshop, a gilded lotus, and either a mox or sol ring by the second turn is not too likely, and that's the bluff-only version.  You need FOUR cards in 8-9 to be correct to have the drain ready too.  I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's not something you count on.

edit: forgot memory jar.  Second turn jar that you use 3rd turn isn't fun when you only have 3 mana you can use on stuff that isn't an artifact though, which means you're hoping you jar into a mindslaver for use on the fourth turn.
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Razvan
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« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2004, 11:07:16 pm »

Quote
are only there because the deck is so confused as to what it's trying to do that it must leave out ideal cards.


I don't think that is true. I don't think the deck is confused at all. I had 2 REB's, but I thought trying 1 REB, 1 Wheel.

Essentially, the deck is +4 Drain, -4 Chalice. It is not exactly a huge deviation from the norm. It's simply trying one control elemenet over another.

Of course, further testing will show how true this is, and I might discard this idea. However, I have been playing this for a long time (and modifying it accordingly), and I do think that Chalice, at least for now, is a lot less strong. We will see.

Okay, I am tired, so my apologies for not describing everything.

This is not a control slaver deck that added workshops, it's a workshop-slaver deck that uses Mana Drains. Against Tog, yes, the Chalices are gold. I am afraid that it is the only match-up where the Chalices are superior.

And yes, Tog is quite the strongest deck. Smile So maybe that should be enough.

And yes, the problems you all have described is what I was afraid off as well. I guess all that remains is more testing. Dammit.

Defector: a very interesting idea on the siding out the welders and slavers. I am not sure about the welders, but i can definately see modifying the deck... especially against Fish.

Hm...
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Wollblad
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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2004, 08:07:32 am »

When I played Wokshop Slaver, I was also feeling that something was missing and that Chalice was somewhat questionable. A common situation that explains my doubts about Workshop Slaver is that you get a starting hand like:
1 Workshop
1 Mox
1 Chalice
1 Vulcanic/Reef
1 expensive artifact (CC 6 or more)
1 Draw spells for 3 mana
1 FoW
You start and drop Chalice for two. Next turn you draw a card like the four last listed. Then you can only drop a land and say go, your Workshop is in this turn a missed land drop. A Mana Drain instead of Chalice would have forced you to drop your colored mana first turn and then, if you do not draw a land, play Workshop and say go which is even worse than the above mentioned senario. Workshop Slaver suffers in geneal from problems to utilize the Workshops and removing Chalice makes this problem even more severe.
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Mixing Mike
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« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2004, 01:31:37 pm »

How does your deck fully abuse the speed of Workshops?  And how can you get Mana Drain online with Workshops?  

[opinion] I would think they'd be locked down by the time Drain mana would be useful to you if you were fully tapping into the speed of Workshops. [/opinion]
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