[Question/Challenge] The B/R List

[ShoryuuReppaX]

While reading random magic posts around the net, I came across an interesting quote - "the B/R list should be a hall of fame for broken cards."

Reflecting on that quote, I realized that most people who calls for the unrestriction of certain cards only suggest the underpowered cards, such as Earthcraft, Mind Over Matter, Entomb, and Fork. Shouldn't the B/R list only contain cards that will seriously destroy the format?

I focus my discussion on the following cards: Dream Halls, Fact or Fiction, and Tinker. These cards are obviously extremely strong, there is no denying that. But are they strong enough to supplant today's format?

Dream Halls. This card was insane several years back. As far as I understand, the deck relies on casting draw spells that draws more than 3 cards for free so eventually your hand is enormous, allowing broken plays. How is this better than draw7.dec? I challenge people to create a deck using 4 Dream Halls that will completely destroy the format. Remember, the deck doesn't just have to be good. It has to screw up the format by eliminating an impressive number of competitive tier 1 and tier 2 decks.

Fact or Fiction. This card was restricted because BBS totally destroyed Rasko's old keeper deck. If there is another reason, I don't know it and would like to know it. Anyways, 4 FoF in BBS was killer back then. Does it still pwn everything that stands in its way? Or is there a more broken way to abuse it? Like the above, can you prove that FoF will distort the game?

Tinker. Tinker was so freaking strong that it allowed extended decks to overpower and outbroken T1 decks. It is arguably the strongest tutor in magic. That being said, I am curious about the full power of this card. Most likely, sticking a few more copies in draw7.dec will add to the consistency of the deck and make the deck just that much scarier. But still, is it THAT stupidly broken? Does it qualify under T1's Hall of Broken Fame? I would like to see a deck that abuses 4 tinkers and make a deck so degenerate nothing can stand in its way. But if such a deck can't be built, we really should question its position on the B/R list.

As a summary, I argue that the T1 B/R List should only embrace cards that totally negate existence of other decks. Do these three cards, Dream Halls, Fact or Fiction, and/or Tinker, qualify? At the very least, I wish my post will allow people to think about creative deck building.

[combo_dude]

I don't know about the first two (although I'm inclined to say no), but Tinker - NO WAY. Five Memory Jars are too good. You saw Long.dec in action; that gave you four YawgWill by running four Burning Wish. This is even worse in that it gives you five ways to get Memory Jar out, rather than two. Not a chance.

As a general rule, the B/R list should be a place for cards that distort the format too far. Not completely wreck it. For example, a card like Entomb didn't exactly push Dragon to complete dominance. But it still stays on the list - and barely anyone is trying to claim that it should be unrestricted. Likewise, Chrome Mox: nobody had managed to break it (I don't think it was even used in Long, where having an extra Mox would seem quite handy really), but it got restricted. And again, nobody is crying for its unrestriction. They should both get released years before Tinker.

[Toad]

Dreams Halls is like Mind Over Matter, but better. Search on the Internet for Zvi's Dream Halls deck (Type 2), also named "Turbospaz", for decklists.

Tinker is one of the best tutors ever. It's far better than Demonic Tutor in an artifact deck. Would you ever consider unrestricting Demonic Tutor?

Fact or Fiction has been weakened compared to what It used to be back when It was unrestricted an pushed MonoU to the top, but It's still an insane card. I'd run 3 in Keeper every day, It's often better than Skeletal Scrying as It allows to dig faster into the deck for answers and ups the blue cards count.

[baumann]

Totally off the top of my head:

TurboBaumann:
    4 Opportunity
    4 Sift
    18 Island
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Temporal Cascade
    1 Time Spiral
    1 Timetwister
    4 Tendrils of Agony
    4 Dream Halls
    4 Mana Severance
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    4 Force of Will
    4 Meditate
    1 Ancestral Recall

Manages a good lot of turn 2 kills, while the turn 1 kill is rarer. Still, the deck is definately crack (especially considering it was thrown together in 2 minutes  ).
/b

[Dr. Sylvan]

***SPEAK NOW UNTO THE TMD ORACLE***

I focus my discussion on the following cards: Dream Halls, Fact or Fiction, and Tinker.

TMD ORACLE: "Restrict: FoW
Unrestrict: 7 SoLoMoxen, Academy, Mind's Desire
Ban: Creatures

The DCI has been trying unsuccessfully to keep Vintage from becoming a format dominated by combo for years. Unfortunately, since it is against our policy to ban cards in Type One, we gave up and decided to go the other route. Take your medicine and like it."

----------------------------------------------------

oMg UnReStRiK7 7iNk3r fIfE JaRz IsNt 7|-|47 b0rk3n

[riggy]

Summary first.
Tinker shouldn't be unrestricted (at the current time) b/c it's casting cost isn't prohibitive and it's secondary cost will rarely factor in.

Dream Halls is potent, but I've not been exposed to much play against it so I can't say anything about it.

Fact or Fiction is probably safe to come off the B/R list though. It's cc is high, and it won't really be a 4-of in any current deck.


Breakdown of my thoughts.
Fact or Fiction:
Pros: feeds Togs and Welders, builds your Yawg Will, allows you to dig according to need, is an instant speed draw.
Cons: costs 3U, can screw you if your opponent has any solid amount of playskill.

The casting cost would be rather prohibitive for a lot of decks out there. It might start showing up as a 2-of but I don't see this as being a 4-of in any currently competitve deck.

Tinker:
Pros: finds anything, reasonably expect to cast first turn.
Cons: You have to sac something (typically something less important than what you're fetching).

I play one copy of Darksteel Colossus in my slaver home-brew. Whenever I get a first turn tinker, that's typically my target, and it will typically win me the game against any non-combo deck. As a random aside, I can see a Colussus deck with 4 Berserks and 4 tinkers going for consistent turn 2 and 3 kills.

[Mixing Mike]

Fact or Fiction is probably safe to come off the B/R list though. It's cc is high, and it won't really be a 4-of in any current deck.

Mana Drain exists.  Fact or Fiction will stay on the list until Drains get restricted.  Drains won't get restricted until after Workshops and Bazaars get the boot.  That'll happen after FoW is sent to the guillotine.

In other news, Bush is a great president.

Good greif....

[Kowal]

Wow.  Okay, here's what the problem is.

ONE.  There's ALWAYS a thread talking about unrestricting stuff.  It's always terrible.  This one's no exception.

TWO.  Tinker?  Are you insane?

Locked.[/color]

[Dr. Sylvan]

This thread is being locked. This usually happens for a few key reasons, mainly the following:

1. Posting a new thread when a similar one already exists.
2. Not putting enough post content in your posts. We need more than a decklist, especially if it's something new or obscure.
3. You do not have an adequate grasp of the format, enough to know what is good and what is bad.

To become an all-around better poster and player, please read this thread and the articles contained within it:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15089

Thanks for your cooperation.
-TMD Staff


KOWAL0WNED!!!1!
-- Toad