What to meddling mage for?

[ChazzyChaz]

Against most decks there is one optimal card to name when casting meddling mage.  Anyone who plays EBA (or other decks with mage) has this one card in their head before the match begins.  Usually an early, effectivly picked mage can parlay into a win.  This thread's purpose is to find out what is the optimal mage choice for each matchup.  Here are the picks i use:

Vs. Dragon: Animate dead.  This is the enchantment thats used the most however the matchup really requires multiple mages to ensure victory.  The next two choices would be Necromancy and then Dance of the Dead. Sometimes you can go for odds if you have countered one or two Animate deads already by naming Necromany or Dance.  This strategy can give them less outs if you pick correctly.

Vs. Both Slavers: Goblin Welder.  This is by far the best choice at anytime during the matchup.  The welder is key to their victory and by neutralizing it you stand a chance in this matchup.  This stops reoccuring slavers and the TFK super engine.  

4c Control: This poses a problem for the mage because if you are running EBA then many of your cards are going to be overlapping with theirs.  Some EBA versions run Skeletal Scrying and just a 4 angel 4 mage creature base.  This pick between scrying, angel and something else depends more on where you are in the game and the deck type because of the similarites between the two decks.

Vs. Draw 7: Tendrils of Agony.  The main plan for this matchup is to try and survive a turn or so to cast the mage for Tendrils.  You think Draw 7 was a nasty deck to begin with its twice as good going for spirit guide beatdown!  Of course first turn mage with accelerants is always the best route against this monster.

Belcher: Goblin Charbelcher.  This is by far the best matchup for meddling mage.  Against old belcher this would be game set match right there.  This changed with the addition of Welder.  Things are still on the bright side however.  Kill the welder or counter it unimpeded, or you can just set your next mage to welder and be done with it.

GAT: Quirion Dryad .  This basically comes down to which one the deck is likely to have more of.  You can stray from this path if you know that your opponent is running 3 togs (or more), as they are the better and more deadly creature.  This all changes if they have already dropped a Dryad.  If they have played one Dryad already then it is not a bad choice to drop mage for tog and swords the first dryad if you can.

Fish: Standstill/Grim lavamancer.  Here we come down to the optimal choice and the choice just to make sure the first mage survives.  Against any deck with some burn or removal will cause problems for a mage centered strategy.  The Standstill choice basically puts a monkey wrench into their set game plan.  It makes their creatures weaker because they won't be hitting you over multiple turns.  You will then have the option to either ignore them and just attack hard with angel, or you can get rid of the creatures and move on.  The grim lavamancer strategy works well when you know they are packing lava.  It is smart to pick lavamancer anytime but of course make sure they don't have any on the board b4 you cast. (duh).  Fire/Ice is not a good choice for the most part.  Use your counters or duress to get that because they are most likely not running 4 or any.  Standstill is the only sure choice if you have no information about the deck.

MaskNaught: Illusionary Mask.  This is the best choice only if they have not slapped down that kookie card already.  They only really need one to get going.  You can't name Phyrexian Dreadnought because mage only prevents players from playing cards from hand.  If they are running the deck with a survival engine, and they have already placed a mask pick survival as a sure choice.

Hulk Smash: Cunning Wish.  Between Cunning Wish and Psychatog Cunning Wish is the one that seems to be the best choice.  They need the wish to get the berserk, but obviously they can win without berserk.  The reason that you choose cunning wish is that it lets you take care of the tog with your swords and makes sure that your mage survives the day. Without the wish Hulks only form of creature kill is probably a lone deed if that.  For the most part you can ride your angels to the win from there.  

Food Chain Goblins: Goblin Recruiter.  Although you can go for the Food Chain in this matchup by cutting out the Recruiter you can kill two birds with one stone.  Without the Recruiter the Food Chain does nothing for the FCG player.  The strategey in this matchup is to get the mages out in droves named to recruiter because of the uncounterable Gempalm Incinerator.  What a jerk he can be.  By setting for recruiter you can also make sure the FCG player doesn't just forget about Food Chain an go for topdecking 40 goblins for the win.  

If there are anyother things that i have left out feel free to post your opinions.  Until then may all your mages hit and your swords farm freely.

-Chaz

[Razvan]

I generally agree, except I cannot see why you would call Standstill against Fish. Lavamancer is by far the more superior choice.

Against Dragon... that's a tough one, as they usually rifle through their library pretty quickly... the Animate's okay... but probably not enough. Hell, sometimes, even calling Duress isn't a bad idea...

[PucktheCat]

I have been thinking about this a bit recently as well.  Here are my thoughts:

Vs. Both Slavers: Goblin Welder.  This is by far the best choice at anytime during the matchup.  The welder is key to their victory and by neutralizing it you stand a chance in this matchup.  This stops reoccuring slavers and the TFK super engine.

This is probably right, but I think a backup plan is necessary because Goblin Welder often resolves before the Mage.  Is TFK the right call in that case?

4c Control: This poses a problem for the mage because if you are running EBA then many of your cards are going to be overlapping with theirs.  Some EBA versions run Skeletal Scrying and just a 4 angel 4 mage creature base.  This pick between scrying, angel and something else depends more on where you are in the game and the deck type because of the similarites between the two decks.

Naming Angel won't work, they will just Morph it out.  Second game, REB is probably correct - presuming you don't have any yourself.

Vs. Draw 7: Tendrils of Agony.  The main plan for this matchup is to try and survive a turn or so to cast the mage for Tendrils.  You think Draw 7 was a nasty deck to begin with its twice as good going for spirit guide beatdown!  Of course first turn mage with accelerants is always the best route against this monster.

Tendrils is obviously correct against versions that can't remove the Mage.  If you know they have a maindeck Chain of Vapors is it still correct?  How about post-sb when you can be sure they have several ways to get rid of the mage?  Would you name Diminishing Returns then?

Belcher: Goblin Charbelcher.  This is by far the best matchup for meddling mage.  Against old belcher this would be game set match right there.  This changed with the addition of Welder.  Things are still on the bright side however.  Kill the welder or counter it unimpeded, or you can just set your next mage to welder and be done with it.

Why not name Welder first and Charbelcher second?  The Welder is so much cheaper . . .

Fish: Standstill/Grim lavamancer.  Here we come down to the optimal choice and the choice just to make sure the first mage survives.  Against any deck with some burn or removal will cause problems for a mage centered strategy.  The Standstill choice basically puts a monkey wrench into their set game plan.  It makes their creatures weaker because they won't be hitting you over multiple turns.  You will then have the option to either ignore them and just attack hard with angel, or you can get rid of the creatures and move on.  The grim lavamancer strategy works well when you know they are packing lava.  It is smart to pick lavamancer anytime but of course make sure they don't have any on the board b4 you cast. (duh).  Fire/Ice is not a good choice for the most part.  Use your counters or duress to get that because they are most likely not running 4 or any.  Standstill is the only sure choice if you have no information about the deck.

Curiosity would be a good option to consider here.  It is at least as strong as Standstill.  Lavamancer protects the Mage, which is good.

Edit:  What in the hell do you do in the mirror?

Leo

[theorigamist]

Why not name Welder first and Charbelcher second? The Welder is so much cheaper . . .

Because about half of the deck is cheap/free mana, so Charbelcher will hit as quickly as Welder most of the time.  So it doesn't matter that Charbelcher costs more.

Edit:

Edit: What in the hell do you do in the mirror?

Name Mage.
Probably your best bet is to hit card drawing game 1, then side out Mages games 2 and 3.

[PucktheCat]

Why not name Welder first and Charbelcher second? The Welder is so much cheaper . . .

Because about half of the deck is cheap/free mana, so Charbelcher will hit as quickly as Welder most of the time.  So it doesn't matter that Charbelcher costs more.

But the deck effectively plays 6 welders with the Wishes.  If Charbelcher is the correct play that's cool.  I haven't tested this matchup, but Welder seemed worth considering.

Leo

[theorigamist]

If you take the time to name Welder, they're going to play a Belcher.  If you name Belcher first, when they've spent whatever resources already concentrating on putting out a Belcher, then you will buy a little time to prevent a Welder.  Also, even if the Welder does hit after you Mage naming Belcher, you have a turn's time to try to remove it, because of summoning sickness.

Belcher is almost certainly the right call.

[PucktheCat]

I guess I am convinced  

How universal would you say that call is?

For example, would the same hold true if you had Force backup?  How about if you had Force backup and their mana sources were mostly one shot things?  Would you stick with Charbelcher or go with Welder to get them to sac all their mana into a Charbelcher for you to counter?

Leo

[Kowal]

Most dragon lists I've seen recently run more Necromancy than Animate Dead.  It also has the most ability to screw with you in the late game, which is what it'd have to be if you're turning your shit sideways for a little dude.

[ProZachar]

Whatever you do, don't plan on stopping Fire/Ice.

Meddling Mage asks for (and "bans") a card name.  Fire is not a valid card name.  Ice is not a valid card name.  Fire/Ice ("Fire and Ice") is a valid card name.

However, when your opponent goes to Fire your dude, he's only playing the spell Fire.  A Meddling Mage set to "Fire/Ice" won't stop it.

[Jebus]

Whatever you do, don't plan on stopping Fire/Ice.

Meddling Mage asks for (and "bans") a card name.  Fire is not a valid card name.  Ice is not a valid card name.  Fire/Ice ("Fire and Ice") is a valid card name.

However, when your opponent goes to Fire your dude, he's only playing the spell Fire.  A Meddling Mage set to "Fire/Ice" won't stop it.

Incorrect.  The Mage still prevents you from playing the card Fire/Ice even though you can only play the spell Fire or Ice.

[Kowal]

I can confirm Jebus is right.  Anyway kids, get back on topic.  

[ProZachar]

Yeah, my bad.  I'll go eat my crow now.

Rune sez:

You name the full name of the card (Fire//Ice). You are then not allowed to
play that card. This includes both sides, Fire and Ice.

401.1. A card on the stack is a spell. As the first step of being played,
the card becomes a spell and goes on the stack from the zone it was played
from (usually the player's hand). (See rule 217.6, "Stack.") A copy of a
spell is also a spell, even if it has no card associated with it.

409.1a The player announces that he or she is playing the spell or activated
ability. It moves from the zone it's in to the stack and remains there until
it's countered or resolves. In the case of spells, the physical card goes
onto the stack. [...]

505.4. Although split cards have two playable halves, each split card is
only one card. For example, a player who has drawn or discarded a split card
has drawn or discarded one card, not two.

Playing any spell on the card is "playing the card". This is not allowed by
Meddling Mage, and you have an illegal action.

[The Atog Lord]

After playing a good bit against Meddling Mage with Control Slaver, I'm convinced that there are times when Thirst is the right card for the Mage to name. Yes, Welder often ends the game himself, and is often the best card to name.

However, there have been games I've lost because an early Mage named Thirst. Thirst draws into answers to the Mage, and further, without Thirst, Welder is often not amazing in the early game. For example, if a Control Slaver player opens with a Volcanic Island and passes the turn, it is often good to name Thirst on your turn two Mage.

To put it another way, as MoreFling said, which card is the right card to name depends on the situation.

[PucktheCat]

Another reason to consider naming TFK instead of Welder is that when you cast Mage second turn the chances are good that if they had a Welder they would have cast it first turn.  They might still have a Thirst though.  Obviously this doesn't apply later in the game, but later in the game you should be counting graveyards and examining the board anyway.

Also, in defense of the thread, one of the most common (and important) situations with Mage is casting it second turn when you haven't seen much other than a land from your opponent's deck.  That is when Mage can cripple your opponent's gameplan, but only if you have done the work ahead of time to know what the right play is.

Leo

[Toad]

I deleted a dozen of posts here discussing about were this thread should be moved. Last time I checked, Basic Members didn't have Moderator privileges, so let the Mods Staff do its job.
I'll move this back to Newbie.

-- Toad