Hybrid workshop aggro deck: UR Stacker/BSR/Slaver blend

[Covetous]

Ever since I obtained 4 Workshops, I have been trying to use them to their fullest ability.  I have (at various times) played TnT, mono-red stacker, UR stacker, welderMUD, UR stax, slavery, 7/10 and broodstarrunner, along with a janky for-fun mono-black type 1.5 workshop deck with the abyss.  Currently, everyone (or almost everyone) seems to say that Meandeck Slavery is the best workshop deck in most metagames.  I personally love this deck, but since I am an aggro player at heart, I wanted to try to find a playable workshop aggro deck.  This led me recently to BSR and 7/10, but I felt that each deck was lacking something.  7/10 has a lower threat density than BSR, so it would get smacked by decks packing substantial countermagic.  I tried to help this by running FoW in 7/10, but the result was lackluster.  Then I tried BSR, after playing against Jeff at Regionals (I went, but I didn't waste my time playing type 2), and decided that Lightning Greaves is the bomb, and it makes metalworker that much better.  

So, basically, I tried to make 7/10 with lightning greaves and metalworker along with stacker creatures to decrease the deck's dependence on bombs.  The theory was that control decks need to counter a first-turn juggernaut no matter what other threats you have in your hand.  So, by playing cheap fatties, you draw out countermagic, allowing your bombs to resolve.  Or, you just win by face-smashing using a 5/3, a 4/4 or several of each.  Plus, a metalworker can accelerate your 7/10 more than a gilded can.  Plus, welding out a su-chi for something else can accelerate your 7/10.  This deck was okay, but I decided that I didn't need THAT many fatties, so I tried to include mindslavers in place of the 7/10's and add in a pentavus, and the deck congealed into something broken.  The theory behind the deck is to have such a high threat-density that you overcome the counters a control player can throw at you.  Here's my list, which is (as the topic implies) a hybrid of Slavery, UR Stacker and BSR.
Beats (10):
4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi
1 Triskelion
1 Pentavus
Utility Creatures (8):
4 Goblin Welder
4 Metalworker
Combo pieces (5):
3 Lightning Greaves
2 Mindslaver
Card Draw and Broken Things (10):
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
Mana (27):
4 Volcanic Island
4 Fetchies
2 Island
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Ancient Tomb
7 Solomoxen
1 Vault
1 Crypt
1 Lotus Petal

So, the deck basically can use any one of the following game plans (or more than one):
1.  Drop a turn 1 fattie and beat face.
2.  Drop a metalworker and then:
     2a.  Drop multiple fatties turn 2
     2b.  Mindslaver the opponent ASAP to disrupt their mana development, counter base or board position
     2c.  Combo using a draw-7 and lightning greaves (i.e. like BSR)
3.  Drop threats until an opponent is out of counters, then Thirst for more threats or Tinker for something game-breaking.

I find that lightning greaves is a game-winner and amazingly awesome (thanks to Jeff for the idea from BSR).  I also like that Su-Chi has good synergy with Mindslaver (weld out su-chi and use the mana to slave).  Metalworker is awesome and allows broken explosive things to happen.  

Anyway, the major drawback that I see with this deck is the lack of MD disruption of any kind.  The SB has 4 chalice and 3-4 trinisphere to help with combo (the deck's worst matchup).  I decided to try the deck without disruption on the premise that if you drop enough threats, your opponent cannot deal with all of them and you will eventually win.  This may not be a correct premise, but I want to get feedback from people on how to improve this deck, or whether the deck is worth pursuing.  I have yet to extensively playtest versus a realistic type 1 gauntlet, but I wanted some suggestions.  This deck has the advantage over slaver that it is better vs. aggro and specifically better vs. Fish, as it has more fat and is less susceptible to Null Rod (juggernaut doesn't care about null rod when he's in the red zone).  Comments?

[paradigm]

Certainly an interesting  and creative concept. Huzzah for putting time into it.

However the major flaw within such a build is that it's confused - it does not know what it's trying to accomplish. But trying to do too much it will often be able to accomplish enough.

1. Drop a turn 1 fattie and beat face.
2. Drop a metalworker and then:
2a. Drop multiple fatties turn 2
2b. Mindslaver the opponent ASAP to disrupt their mana development, counter base or board position
2c. Combo using a draw-7 and lightning greaves (i.e. like BSR)
3. Drop threats until an opponent is out of counters, then Thirst for more threats or Tinker for something game-breaking.

The deck is not devoted to a solid gameplan - instead it tries to compensate by having several strong options.

Addressing the Workshop Slaver element - this requires a devotion towards the Gilded Lotus / Thirst for Knowledge gameplan in order to carry out the quick Slaver / Pentavus (or Memnarch but this is mute here). Having resort to such a plan prevents you from beating down - as it will often require your turn one mana investment to set up for the turn two Gilded or Thirst.

The deck will likely be forced to rely on the Stacker element, and without disruption, it becomes vulnerable to Togs, Artifact Mutations, and so forth. It cannot put on pressure without two key elements which this deck is forced to cut due to the hybrid build - Brainstorm and Force of Will.

Brainstorm provides more consistent draw - which Stacker and Workshop slaver both utilize fully in order to supplement the explosive start.

More importantly however, is the lack of Force of Will - the major issue with this is the vulnerability it leaves your deck with - not only can't you stop their threats (which, in the form of Racks, Artifact Mutations, and the like) are present, but you cannot protect your own from counters either. Stacker (JP Meyer's recent build as posted on Starcitygames.com) utilizes Mana Leak as a tool to back up your threats. Because you do not have the Survival of the Fittest engine to keep threats coming, a simple Force can blunt your plan quite strongly, buying enough time to catch up into the game. Force is simply relevant in any deck with blue nowadays.

Addressing Metalworker - the major problem with this idea is that it usually won't accelerate you fast enough - it was more suited to MUD builds which could drop higher costing lock pieces - when it comes to the early drops - if you can drop this turn one, with a shop, a 4-mana creature would usually be a better play - you simply have less to do with Metalworker mana than MUD, and thus, it's not as good to use - it will cause you to sink your first turn's investment of mana (when you want a threat, as you noted) and does not set up the Slaver gameplan (unless you have that early Slaver).

I believe that through furthur testing against control slaver and Hulk, that the inconsistency of the Metalworker will be revealed - remembering also that you have no Force to back it up - the ability for you to drop multiple threats with the mana (creature threats) will usually not come up - and if it does, it's a turn later on turn two as opposed to turn one). Another strength of the worker in MUD was its ability to work through a lock, whereas here it's a one shot that must come out turn one to be effective- in a deck where it would rather go turn one fatty, turn two fatty.

The argument comes into the fact that you have too many cards fighting for too few turn one mana - it's best, and more optimal to chose one route and stick with it - which allows you to accelerate your plan and maintain a higher level of consistency - for with this build, once you chose a gameplan, you have to commit to it lest your opponent be given any oppurtunity to reclaim control, and by having to cut Brainstorm and Force, among other elements, it is not optimized to do that (it can do so, but at a lower level - which will reveal it's flaws throughout a 6-8 round swiss and a 3 round top eight.) Perhaps not as much in individual games - but over a tournament where a X-1-1 record is needed, you must be able to achieve maximum efficiency and consistency.

Looking at the sideboard (4 Chalices and 3 Trinisphere) - it becomes difficult to maintain since you need Shamans against control slaver, graveyard hate for Dragon, Red Elemental Blasts, Flametongue Kavu, and so forth. Showing perhaps a sideboard plus a sideboard plan would also show that you would most likely find yourself cutting either the dead cards explained above, or one combo or the other (most likely the Slaver part) - otherwise it just won't fit. Against combo, your threats give them time to answer, and you cannot accelerate into a Slaver as easy nor can Force of Will - it'll come down to having a shop and a disruption element, or a chalice, which is where Force hurts most.

Please do not mistake this for an attack on you or your deck.
Innovation to the format is both necessary and desired by the type one community.

However also we want to optimize each deck to the highest level, and the way to do that here is to either chose Shop Slaver or Stacker and run with it, for it cannot to both in a 60 card frame.

Good luck with continued deckbuilding!

[Plainswalker]

Take a look here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9230&highlight= Samite Healer put this together a long time back so some stuff may be out of date, but it's pretty well constructed and similar to this. A small amount of disruption is going to be needed though either in Force of Will or some artifact lock piece like 3 Sphere. I mean you might get away with none, but your going to have to focus your game plan alot more if you want to do that then.

Edit:

I think he is aware of BroodStarRunner

thats what the BSR stands for in the title.

My bad  :lol: , but it's a good link for others who might say the same thing as in the BSR thread.

[nataz]

I think he is aware of BroodStarRunner

thats what the BSR stands for in the title.

[jazzykat]

I too have been feeling the need for something akin to meandeck slaver, but with more consistency.

I think your greaves are interesting, although you may be able to cut them and add some draw(thirst, brainstorm, FOF?),and the metalworkers too.

I am eager to see where this leads.

[Rico Suave]

The theory was that control decks need to counter a first-turn juggernaut no matter what other threats you have in your hand. So, by playing cheap fatties, you draw out countermagic, allowing your bombs to resolve.

Well, then why not maindeck Trinisphere and Chalice?  They do the same thing even better.

[Marton]

hmmm, this might sound crazy, but instead of going for brainstorms, perhaps you could try and use Scroll Rack instead. It's an artifact, and works with fetch lands. Sure, if you choose to go the Force of Will / brainstorm route, then obviously Scroll Rack does not have it's place.

Tell me what you think of it

-marton

[Covetous]

@paradigm--Thanks for the long and thoughtful reply.  I certainly agree that I would like to fit in FoW, Brainstorm or hopefully both.  But then, the deck would simply be UR Stacker, which I feel is less powerful than slavery.  The metalworkers are SO good in this deck.  That's the main idea I drew from Jeff's BSR (plus the greaves).  It is true that there are many important options for a turn 1 play--often playing a fatty is the better play.  But, the workers are generally important for a control deck to deal with because they can facilitate the dropping of multiple threats in the same turn, overwhelming the counters.  I often find myself using them for 6-10 mana, then welding them out for threats that got countered.  They are very effective at activating the slaver and when you get a draw-7 they become insane, especially with greaves.  If I could take out the metalworkers to fit in some MD disruption (probably 3sphere or chalice due to the low blue count), I would, but then this deck would just be a bad stacker deck with two random mindslavers.  The workers just seem to work so well with the rest of the deck--they activate mindslaver and cast many threats and are beautiful with the draw-7's.

I certainly have the same concerns as you that the deck is trying to do too much at the same time, but I generally consider it along these lines--the early, middle and late games have different game plans.  Early, you will try to drop a fatty and start beating face.  Middle, you will try to slave or draw-7 into more threats.  Late, you will try to get a permanent slaver lock.  Think of this deck as Stacker with slavers.  The stacker plan is the primary plan, and accomplishes some of the things that slavery cannot do--provide early pressure and fat blockers.  But, since the raw power of the slaver plan is so great, it can be used any time to wreck your opponent's board position.  Slaving your opponent with a su-chi and a juggernaut on the table means game over, and this happens often.  

@Rico--Trinisphere and Chalice are certainly good cards for this deck, but I can't find room in the MD--plus, a turn 1 juggernaut must be dealt with by your opponent or you will win in about 4 turns.  A turn 1 chalice gives the opponent more time to deal with it and will not directly end the game.  

@Marton--Scroll rack is an interesting idea, but this deck tends to empty its hand early, so that leaves little to rack with.  It is still an idea that bears consideration.

The sideboard of this deck is certainly the weakest aspect.  I haven't really had the opportunity to hone the SB at all, and at this point, I am just taking ideas from the SB tech of other similar decks.  Right now, I have:
7 chalice/3sphere (in some combination to be used vs. combo)
1 triskelion
1 duplicant
3 rack and ruin
3 blood moon/REB (not sure which)
I certainly would like to be able to take out the spheres and chalices to make more room for other cards, but I don't think that will be possible--this deck will get stomped by combo in general, and needs some sort of combo-disruption in the SB to even consider being able to win.  I have toyed with the idea of platinum angel in the board vs. dragon, but I decided against it--blood moon can be very effective in that matchup if it hits play.

[paradigm]

I certainly agree that I would like to fit in FoW, Brainstorm or hopefully both. But then, the deck would simply be UR Stacker, which I feel is less powerful than slavery.

The idea here is if the deck would simply be better and more consistent were it one or the other as opposed to both, and it appears to be that way - it would be better as Workshop Slavery (or Control Slavery, should you have Drains) - which would make the deck more focused and would allow things like maindeck Chalice, Force of Will, and Brainstorm.

Just a thought.

[Rico Suave]

@Rico--Trinisphere and Chalice are certainly good cards for this deck, but I can't find room in the MD--plus, a turn 1 juggernaut must be dealt with by your opponent or you will win in about 4 turns.  A turn 1 chalice gives the opponent more time to deal with it and will not directly end the game.  

A turn 1 Trinisphere lets you win right there. ;)

I would be inclined to cut Lightning Greaves.  Why?  Because Trinisphere fulfills a similar role to Greaves in that it protects your men.

[Covetous]

Tragically, playtesting forced me to admit that this deck needs disruption, and that by adding disruption you must cut one of the parts of the deck that make it different from a normal build of one specific deck--as in, if you add FoW, you probably need to cut the metalworkers and add in some brainstorms, probably by cutting the slavers and a few mana sources (lotus petal, one land).  Then the deck becomes UR stacker.  Or, you can cut the greaves and slavers for trinispheres, and the deck becomes like BFD, but with smaller and faster threats.  I have tested the Stacker route, but not the BFD-like route.  As others have described, stacker is a strong deck, but probably not as good as slavery because a juggernaut is not as threatening as a slaver.  I will look into the trinisphere and/or chalice route a little more because I like the idea of using metalworker to accelerate out huge fatties.  Thanks for the input.

[Bobduh]

Your deck runs no disruption maindeck, attempting to overwhelm the opponent with must-counters... but I think you could still fit in either 3spheres or chalices maindeck- they can be just as damaging and counter-drawing as a threat, and help to slow your opponent down for the rest of the game if they actually do hit, plus the distance you are slowed by a 3sphere or stopped by a chalice is negated by the manacurve-jump workshop and worker provide. This deck has a HUGE amount of acceleration- I think it'd be best to capitalize on that by dropping a 3sphere you can play around entirely. In your deck, it seems all low mana costs are very important, so I'd suggest the 4spheres/3chalices route.

[CCClark]

I play a deck very similar to this though mine is severely metagames for the heavy aggro enviroment (yes I know combo rules, but it's fun beating down beatdown).  

Anyway, the difference is

-3 Lightning Greaves
-2 Mindslaver  ( I agree this card rocks, just not in this style)
-1 Lotus petal
-1 Timetwister ( I don't like reseting my welders, just a personal thing)

+3 Chalice
+4 Trinisphere

It essentially comes out pretty much what people here have already mentioned.  I can just say I have played it and it dominates creature based decks and gives control a serious run for the money.  

Your big stopping points are hitting an actual powered combo or Keeper with no trinosphrere or chalice handy.    Those 2 cards make all the difference against the usual decks that would steamroll this.   I also found it's not real fond of a well built MUD.

Pretty much the Trinos and chalices are a must to jam in if you have decks such as these in your area.

[FreddieNDB]

I think I am going to playetest this deck and see what happens because I support hybrid decks. The deck more than likely needs a lot of work, but I think hybrid decks have a lot of potential.

Mad-Dragon has been a very succeful deck in my metagame and has pretty goodmatch ups with just about any deck. I was rather disappointed when it only briefly was brought up in TMD and then quickly scuttled. It seemed like many players wern't grasping the concept of the hybrid deck. Players were assuming that both the Madness and dragon portions of the deck were equally used so it was sub-par because both portions were less than optimal on their own. However, the way the deck plays actually makes it a very dangerous deck and one that allows very little margin of error against an opponent.

The deck goes for aggro beatdown first. Either you deal with the beatdown or die. Which then leaves you open to get comboed out by dragon.

The point I make is that Hybrid decks have to make a gameplan that goes first part of the deck and a backup of the second part of the deck.

I think this is what Covetous is trying to do. It goes for fatty beatdown and then drops the bomb.

Paridigm pointed out that the deck is tryign to do toomany things at once, but I believe that the deckreally should do portion of the deck at a time with the possibility of another threat in the air. This seriously puts the opponent into a tight position.

I hope that this hybrid deck is not thrown away by TMD as Mad-dragon was.

[snachos]

@Covetous:  I see that you realized that you need disruption.   I have took a good look at the decklist that you first posted and realized that it is very similar to BSR.  

This is what I have noticed about your changes:

you have taken out a trike for a pentavus in order to get an infinite mindslaver combo going.

you have replaced Tanglewires with thirst for knowledge

You have abandoned the 5 strip plan in favor of more blue sources and tombs

You have also replace Myr Enforcer with Su-Chi.  


Based on these changes I have a bunch of questions still in my head as well as my take on the issue.  

Your first change ( the addition of the pentavus at the expense of the trike) does two things.  It creates the possibility of an infinite combo that serves as a "win more" scenario as well as removes half of what little maindeck removal that you have in BSR.  

Secondly replacing Tanglewires with TFK gives you more search and a greater reliance on Blue at the expense of maindeck disruption.  After more testing you have admitted that you need maindeck disruption but overlooked where this deck has been and what it has traditionally used.  

Replacing Myr Enforcer with Su-chi is not necesarily a bad thing.  Myr Enforcer was in BSR because it gives it the chance to go insane dropping vast amounts of creatures for very little mana.  Su -Chi slows the deck down but also allows for welder tricks.  IMO it is strictly inferior for the type of deck you are striving for but it is not a bad or unplayable card by any means.

lastly you abandon of the 5 strip plan made sense at the time because you were more reliant on blue sources and no longer had tangle wire to make your strips more potent.  

I am not trying to promote BSR but i just saw so many similarities i couldn't help but chime in.  


I just want ot make  one comment about BSR and hybrid decks.  Even though it isn't officially a hybrid deck it acts just like one since it has multiple gameplans and routes to victory.  I do not think it will be very easy for you to succeed in making a hybrid deck between BSR and anything else because BSR's gameplan is already varied and erratic.  At least the version I play can play out three different ways.  By playing out your tangle wires, a single threat, and tinkering for mindslaver you can take a more controllish route.  Tinkering for memory jar and trying to cast it multiple times off metalworker relying on greaves to keep the combo going gives a comboish feel to the deck.  And last but certainly not least there is straight aggro plan of just dropping guys and going for the kill.  I would like to give more constructive criticism of your deck but i can't seem to find a solid gameplan within it that hasn't already been covered by BSR save the infinite mindslaver combo.

All i want to do is leave you with a question in your head ... How do you want your deck to win?

[Covetous]

After some more testing, I decided that trying to make an infinite slaver lock is unnecessary for the deck, and I decided to stick with the beatdown plan.  I also decided to put in trinispheres as disruption, as suggested.  
So, that left me with:
4 juggernaut
4 su-chi
4 goblin welder
4 metalworker
2 triskelion
2 sundering titan

4 trinisphere
4 thirst for knowledge
1 memory jar
1 timetwister
1 tinker
1 wheel of fortune
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk

7 solomoxen
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
4 workshops
2 ancient tomb
1 tolarian
4 volcanic island
1 island
1 strip mine
4 shivan reef

I'd like to fit the lightning greaves back in, but I'm not sure if that would help the deck.  I like using the metalworker to drop turn 2 titan, and I'm trying to decide if the deck needs 26 land, or if I can cut one.  The trinispheres really do help the deck a lot, and I'm glad they are in there.  I'm not sure if the 7/10's are necessary, but they certainly are game-winners when they hit, which is the entire point.

[snachos]

So far this looks like a solid deck with more potential locked away than meets the eye.  Lightning greaves can be an amazing card in this deck giving it a more explosive impact on the game powering out multiple fatties in a turn with the ability of being able to swing with them as well.  Looking at any decklist it is important to remember that numbers need not be set in stone.  With such a strong draw engine(Draw 7's combined with a few TFK's) you are able to cycle through a great portion of your deck with relative ease.  Since you have the draw 7's in there you probably won't need 4 TFK's.  Three should suffice.  Likewise having 2 Sundering Titans can be overkill.  You shouldn't need him every time for the victory so a tutorable copy should be fine.  Lastly, 4 trinispheres can often clog a hand seeing that having multiples serves you no better than one.  Try testing:

-1 Sundering Titan
-1 Trinisphere
-1 TFK
+3 Lightning Greaves

[Bobduh]

It still seems that you could use more disruption... I think you should drop the Slaver route entirely, and scrap the Thirsts for Tanglewires. Since the combo in your deck was clunky, that's already gone, and really all you need is a Metalworker untapped to play whatever you feel like... but now I'm pushing it back to BSR, since the next suggestion would be protecting and enhancing the 'workers with Lightning Greaves. You draw enough angry crap in your opening hand to smash nearly anyone's face, and the draw seems like it could be put to a better use, especially since your abnormally high mana source count allows you to simply hardcast all your fatties anyway.

[JDawg13]

I'm just wondering what everyone's thoughts on Synod Centurion are.  He seems like he's got a nice home in a deck like this, perhaps in place of, or in combination with, Su-Chi.  A nice 4/4 body with no drawback (in a deck of this nature, it's really negligible) seems like it'd be nice.  I know Su-Chi is great because of the potential to weld it out and cast another threat with the mana, but it seems like you have all the mana you need with Metalworker along with everything else.  Being able to skirt Su-Chi's drawback of making you burn for 2-4 (a Thirst cast after it dies is useful) when he dies seems like something I would look into.

[CCClark]

Another quick cute idea is throwing in a Darksteel Collosuss.  It rolls a few mainstream decks via an early tinker.   The Collosuss is normally useless in most metagames due to normal type 1 cards such as Swords and edicts; but if you ever notice people not playing with ways to get rid of it, it's just fun to plop one on them and watch them squirm.  

The metagame I play in is amazingly absent of slaver, keeper, and mono-black builds so I can get away w it.
I keep one in my slaver deck just for quick wins against decks I don't feel like playing against.  (ie Oshawa's null rods are so annoying)

[Covetous]

I certainly agree that lightning greaves is the bomb in this deck, and it hurt to take them out.  I'm really not sure what to take out for them, and most of the cards suggested to me are ones which I do not want to remove.  I think that Trinisphere has more game-winning potential than Greaves.  Having less than 4 trinispheres makes me sad because it drastically reduces the chances of getting one in your opening hand.  Removing a sundering titan also makes me sad because when you successfully turn 2 titan off a metalworker the opponent often decides to use what remains of their hand to pick up their permanents and shuffle their deck.  I have been experimenting with a deck focusing more on the titans, a la 7/10, but with metalworkers for acceleration and both chalice and 3sphere for disruption.  Removing the 4th thirst also would make me sad because you need to expect at least some of your draw to get countered, and thus you need the redundancy.  Having an extra thirst "clogging" your hand is less than a tragedy--it means you are winning, or will win soon.  And, of course, it's a good use for those extra 3spheres...Anyway at the very least, I would consider SB lightning greaves.

What it comes down to for me are the following questions:
1.  Are juggernauts and Su-chis better threats than something else?
2.  Is the 3sphere enough/good enough disruption?
3.  Is metalworker good enough acceleration?
4.  Are lightning greaves better than something else in this deck?

[Cross]

I think the trikes are better than the naughts, especially in the maine metagame. Trikes are deadly against fish, foodchain, and any another typical aggro deck. The naughts are easily chumped and killed, bolted, and gempalmed. Along the same lines the trinispheres kills aggro, especially if you can open with them. I think su-chi is, not only a classic and stylish card, something that has good synergy with the welder.
I'm interested in why you're interested in running the greaves. Are they truly necessary in the deck? Aren't the sundering titans good enough that they don't need to shove 7 damage down someones throat the first turn they come out? They already wreck most deck's mana bases, especially decks that are dual heavy. Also, considering the consistency that the deck should have with dropping early bombs, the mana used for dropping the greaves might be better allocated for getting fatties out.