[Cards] Morphling and Crucible in Keeper.

[Kasuras]

INTRO

I've been starting to play unpowered keeper for a short while, and it works quite well. I won't bore you with decklists of my keeper because no one is interested in budget keeper decks, and certainly not willing to hear "But it works in my metagame". Well, as a matter of fact: that is true. But this thread is not about unpowered keeper. Its about the addition of Crucible of worlds and the resurrection of morphling in keeper, powered that is.

THE CARD, 1.0: THE CARD

http://cards.mtgnews.com/Cards/FD/Crucible_of_Worlds.html

Crucible of Worlds - 3
Artifact - R
You may play lands from your graveyard as though they were in your hand.
Amidst the darkest ashes grow the strongest seeds.
Ron Spencer

The history of the card:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/186

THE CARD, 1.1: ANALYSING THE CARD

So its a card that makes you play lands from your graveyard as though they were in your hand, because that is what the card says. So lets take a look what the card can do in keeper.

The most important thing the Crucible can do for you is probably the ability to play fetchlands from your graveyard. That way, you can find all the land you need and will theoretically have a landdrop each turn. The fetch lands will also give you the chance of getting rid of mana screw, since you can find lands of the color you want. This will make it a lot easier to get the WW cost Exalted Angel needs.

Another very important point is the ability of killing lands each turn. This only requires a Strip mine/Wasteland and a Crucible. The positive point of this is obviously that you will have less problems with man lands. This is also another way of permanent control, which lacks since The Abyss, Moat and Humility left the list. Come to think of it: this card is basically a abyss for lands with a lower mana cost and one that is non-black. Its also possible to have more than one Crucible in turn, which is impossible with The Abyss. Not that will help you very much, but its still a point that is not non-relevant. And the most important part; The Abyss is also a card that makes you sacrifice creatures too, and Crucible is a card that is only working negative towards the opponent.

Crucible is also a card that makes you smile at other decks with Wasteland, since you can just return your lands while they lost one of theirs. Decks with the main objective of slaying lands might also have a tough job versus your Crucible. On the other hand; they can run it too, so this gives them an opportunity of bringing back lands each turn too. Perhaps an idea for the land destruction players among us?

And finally: the card has very much synergy with Balance. Since you can just sacrifice your lands and discard them, you can bring them back where the opponent cannot. This makes Balance even stronger than it already is.

This said: I think Crucible fits perfectly well in keeper.

THE DECK, 2.0: DECKLISTS AND ANALYSING THEM

Before we can play the Crucible in the deck, we have to find out what can be removed first. Since you don't want to run 61 cards, or if you already do; 62 cards.

Therefore I've assembled some recent keeper lists:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=148 (#1, 5, 7)
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=146 (#2)
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=145 (#4)
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=143 (#1, 3)
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=133 (#3, 6)
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16865

Total lists: 10

Note: thanks to www.morphling.de for having all the decklists online.
Note2: all lists are all after 25th April and before 20th June.

So lets take a look at the played cards, how many there were played and what the average number is:

# Name
(Mainboard)
17 Swords to Plowshares (1,7)
10 Balance (1)
15 Exalted Angel (1,5)
19 Decree of Justice (1,9)
2 Disenchant (0,2)
1 Humility (0,1)

40 Force of Will (4)
40 Mana Drain (4)
40 Brainstorm (4)
26 Cunning Wish (2,6)
10 Ancestral Recall (1)
9 Fact or Fiction (0,9)
10 Mystical Tutor (1)
10 Time Walk (1)
4 Accumulated Knowledge (0,4)
4 Morphling (0,4)

19 Skeletal Scrying (1,9)
10 Demonic Tutor (1)
10 Yawgmoth's Will (1)
10 Mind Twist (1)
1 Diabolic Edict (0,1)
1 Vampiric Tutor (0.1)

13 Gorilla Shaman (1,3)

10 Sol Ring (1)
10 Black Lotus (1)
10 Mox Jet (1)
10 Mox Sapphire (1)
10 Mox Ruby (1)
10 Mox Pearl (1)
5 Mox Emerald (0,5)
6 Isochron Scepter (0,6)

11 Fire/Ice (1,1)

42 Blue Fetch (Polluted delta + Flooded strand.) (4,2)
34 Tundra (3,2)
31 Underground Sea (3,1)
11 City of Brass (1,1)
23 Volcanic Island (2,3)
35 Wasteland (3,5)
10 Strip Mine
10 Library of Alexandria (1)
3 Island (0,3)
1 Plains (0,1)
3 Tolarian Academy (0,3)

Before I proceed to the next part of this post, some brief notes first. First of all; I know these numbers don't give a good example, but these figures are mostly meant to illustrate what is played in keeper at the moment. This gives me the opportunity of thinking of the "best" list at the moment. Best list is off course not possible since metagames differ. But the point still holds that this is the best way to illustrate which cards are played. Second note: I have chosen to put Delta and Strand together. This because the ratio of both is often chosen at random. This is the fact in all but one deck, but I've chosen to put them both in one for readability's sake. If anyone would like to have the exact ratio: count it yourselves or send me a pm and I will look it up for you. I hope no one has a problem with this.

THE DECK, 2.1: THE AVERAGE DECKLIST (Angel keeper)

If rounded like you normally would, this is the list you would get if you take the average of all lists:

Note: normally is that all numbers below ,5 are rounded down, and ,5 and higher are rounded up.

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
2 Exalted Angel
2 Decree of Justice

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk

2 Skeletal Scrying
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist

1 Gorilla Shaman

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Isochron Scepter

1 Fire/Ice

4 Blue Fetch (Polluted delta / Flooded strand.)
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 City of Brass
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

This list is one that has 60 cards. However, the mana base will probably not be correct. Neither will it be stable in all metagames. So netdecking this list will probably not result in a very good place in a tournament. This might be rather obvious, but you never know.

THE DECK, 2.2: LOOKING AT THE AVERAGE DECKLIST AND THE PLAYED CARDS

There are some things to say about the played cards, and which are the most popular. Some of these differences between decklists are minor but some are highly remarkable.

First of all, I'm very surprised that Decree of justice is played more than the Exalted Angel. I was thinking everyone was playing Exalted Angel by now instead of Decree, but the opposing seemed to be true. Humility on the other hand is losing a lot of terrain, so I think I can conclude that people are still holding on to the decree instead of playing mono angel beats.

The 2 or 3 Wish discussion seems to be far from over, but the 3 Wishes seem to get the upper hand and thus we can conclude toolbox sideboards are played more and more. I'm not so sure about what the best number is, but I am on the side of those who play 2 wishes. 3 Seems too much for me, but the number of Wishes still isn't the perfect one.

It is surprising Morphling showed up in two decks. I was thinking the Morphling was already put away, but this conclusion seemed to be wrong. As it looks, Morphling isn't abandoned yet but it is very much possible Morphling won't be seeing any tournament anymore soon.

The Skeletal Scrying is a card however that is recognized as a very good card drawer and was played at least 1 time in all of the lists. 2 Seems to be the best number, but the discussion of the right number is far from over.

I find it remarkable Gorilla Shaman is played only once in most of the decks. Does that mean the artifact based decks are descending again? I'm not so sure, but I think the answer is no. The same goes for Fire/Ice, which I expected to be played twice in most of the lists.

Another remarkable thing is the still played Isochron Scepter. I didn't think it would be played that much, due to the number of Null Rods still rising. I don't really know what to think of this. Tolarian Academy is another card that I didn't expect to end up in keeper that much, 3 of them played the Academy. Which I find quite much. Another card I don't really know what to think of.

THE DECK, 2.3: HOW MANY CRUCIBLES ARE NECESSARY?

As said in part 1.1, I think Crucible is a card that fits in keeper perfectly well. However, how many of them should be played?

Well, keeper is the deck of the cards that are played only once in the deck. This is mostly true because it uses that much of the restricted list, but cards that aren't on the restricted list are also often played once and sometimes 1 more. Examples are Gorilla Shaman, Fire/Ice, Swords to Plowshares, Islands and less recently: Humility, The Abyss and Moat. This is made possible because keeper has a lot of search and draw cards so you can find the right answer at the right time.

Because you have enough ways to search for the Crucible and you only need one, since the second won't let you play a second land or something. I believe the right number is just one. If destroyed, too bad. But your opponent had to waste a card on it and its very possible you had used the cards to end your mana/color-screw or stripped some of his lands before he found his answer. And don't forget you're also able to bring it back with a Yawgmoth's Will if destroyed.

THE DECK, 2.4: WHAT TO REMOVE FROM THE DECK FOR THE CRUCIBLE? (Angel Keeper)

Note: I will be using the standard list unless stated otherwise.

I believe the question of what to remove has a rather simple answer. I say: just remove a Scepter. Simply because the Scepter is way too conditional, where Crucible is not. I mean; you will always have a fetch in your graveyard, right? I think the Crucible also gives you more card advantage than the Scepter can, you also don't have to imprint a important card just to see it being removed. And last: Crucible still works if a Null rod or Damping matrix is in play.

This changes the Standard list as following:

-1 Isochron Scepter

+1 Crucible of Worlds

THE DECK, 2.5: STATISTICS Of THE LIST (Angel Keeper)

Let's take a look at the number of spells of color X:

White - 7
Blue - 19 + 1 = 20
Black - 5
Red - 1 + 1 = 2
Artifact - 8
Land - 19

And off course the number of spells that have a xx cost in it:

White - 2

THE DECK, 2.6: COMPARING THE STATISTICS AND THE DECKLIST (Angel Keeper)

So these previous statistics basically say that the main color is blue, that black and white are secondary colors and that red is a splash color. The number of white spells is higher than the number of black spells and you also need more white due to the 2 Exalteds that require WW.

I have chosen to remove a Mox Emerald to put in a 4th tundra to fix the mana problem. Mainly because you don't run green and because you already run sol ring. And as said: because you need the white mana.

Standard list:

-1 Mox Emerald

+1 Tundra

Note: now its a deck that is able to be netdecked. Well at least you can if you want.

THE DECK, 2.7: FINAL DECKLIST (Angel Keeper)

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
2 Exalted Angel
2 Decree of Justice

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk

2 Skeletal Scrying
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist 5

1 Gorilla Shaman

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Crucible of Worlds

1 Fire/Ice

4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 City of Brass
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

And I guess the sideboard differs in each metagame, so I'm not giving any sideboards.

OTHER POSSIBILITIES IN KEEPER, 3.0: ANALYSING POSSIBILITIES

Lots of people have already tried to break the crucible in decks which work with the Zuran Orb and Fastbond together with, off course, the Crucible. This combo gets you infinite life and infinite mana.

This combo is one that can be considered to be put into keeper, perhaps in a build that has Decree of justice as kill to get infinite soldiers. Keeper lists that only use Decree as a kill will use Zuran Orb also most of the time because they often need the life. Exalted Angel fixed this problem, but Zuran Orb is a card that shouldn't be forgotten since it still works. Crucible is another card that is easily added to the deck, just because its very good.

However: that is when the problem occurs: Fastbond. Its not that Fastbond isn't good enough to play; the problem lays in its greenness. Adding Fastbond would mean you have to play 5 color, which leads to having an unstable mana base or removal of wastelands. And wastelands are cards that work very good with the Crucible when a Fastbond and Zuran Orb are not available.

The other problem is that this combo is a 3-card combo, and all of them will be played once to keep the keeper constancy. Else it would just become Crucible.dec with more removal.

Therefore I'm afraid to conclude the Fastbond-Crucible-Zuran Orb doesn't have much chance of succeeding.

The other kill is Morphling. Often forgotten and not played much anymore because Decree and more recently Angel took over it's place. The problem with Morphling was that it was way too mana intensive, and that mana was required every turn instead of Decree which only asks for a lot of mana when cast. And that happens mostly at the opponent's end of turn or as a result of a Mana Drain on your side.

However, Crucible might fix that mana intensiveness. Since you can just play a land each turn. I really think the crucible might give Morphling keeper the boost it needed to get out of the obsolete section.

THE DECK, 4.0: DECKLISTS (Morphling Keeper)

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11190& (Rather outdated.)
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=148 (#2) (More recent)

THE DECK, 4.1: BASIC DECKLIST (Morphling Keeper)

So this is the core of the Morphling keeper deck, I think:

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
1 moat

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
2 Morphling

2 Skeletal Scrying
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mind Twist
1 the abyss

1 Gorilla Shaman

1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Zuran Orb

4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 City of Brass
2 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

THE DECK, 4.2: ANALYSING THE CARD CHOICES (Morphling Keeper)

Moat and The Abyss are chosen simply because of their synergy with Morphling. They also function as a permanent protection and thus the opponent must find an answer to it. Morphling is obvious because that's the kill card. And last: I chose Zuran Orb over Fire/Ice since you already have a lot of control with The Abyss and Moat.

The rest of the deck is the same as the Angel Keeper list. And is just, well, keeper.

THE DECK, 4.3: THE PROS AND CONS OF MORPHLING KEEPER

Note: I will only be comparing Morphling keeper to Angel keeper since they are both keeper.

The first pro is the more intensive use of Crucible than Angel keeper does, since Angel keeper is more a aggro version of keeper. However: is that a good thing? Since that would mean the deck is more relying on Crucible and gets a harder hit than Angel keeper would get if the Crucible is destroyed.

The other point is Morphling itself. Since Morphling can just block the Angel and survive. Morphling is also a card that wins by itself; it doesn't need that much protection Exalted Angel does since it can protect itself. The problem is that Morphling is a lot slower than Angel is, and that speed might be very important in some of the matchups. Exalted Angel also gets around Meddling Mage. And finally: Exalted Angel gets you life.

And finally: The Abyss and Moat. These 2 cards are really cards that matter. The Abyss is a card that works pretty good versus GaT, hulk and Angel Keeper. Since they have to sacrifice their kill conditions. Blasting away a Abyss is pretty hard since it costs 4 mana. The other card, Moat, is one that helps you versus random aggro decks and can even just make them scoop. And: Psychatog and Quirion Dryad don't fly either.

Conclusion: if you live in a meta with a lot of control, you might consider playing Morphling keeper instead of Angel keeper. If not: just play Angel keeper.

CONCLUSION, 5.0: FINAL CONCLUSION

First of all, I would like to state that I'm not advocating everyone to play Morphling keeper. I'm just saying it deserves another look when you face a lot of Germbus-like decks. Angel is better vs. Tog and aggro decks, but Morphling owns Angel when they face each other.

So far my third post on TMD, I hope you found it a good read and that this post will lead to some discussion about the use of Morphling in keeper. And most importantly: how do you feel about the addition of Crucible of Worlds in keeper?

Edit:

So netdecking this list will probably result in a very good place in a tournament. This might be rather obvious, but you never know.

Has been changed to:

So netdecking this list will probably not result in a very good place in a tournament. This might be rather obvious, but you never know.

Since it didn't make sense and was just wrong.

[Zherbus]

I'll quote myself here...

CoW as a sideboard option mainly for assisting in my meta of Fish and Landstill since it neuters alot of their strategy against 4cControl. I'll never add it as a maindeck option because against many of the faster decks in the format, you're beating yourself off while getting your face smashed by spells they've already resolved.

It's a good sideboard card, like FTK. There's too many decks in the format that don't care about CoW to make it a viable maindeck option.

As far as Morphling is concerned, it was played to win mirrors. It's not going to be good against the rest of the field in comparison. Look at the type 1 environment at a glance:

Tog (ANGEL)
DrainSlaver (NEITHER)          
WorkshopSlaver (NEITHER)  
FCG (ANGEL)
Fish (NEITHER)
Dragon (NEITHER)
Draw7 (NEITHER)
Mirror (MORPHLING)
GaT (ANGEL)

I guess it would have just been simpler to leave my statement without this list, but I wanted to illustrate my point better.

[AIcOPed]

I have been using the CoW/Fastbond/Zuran Orb for a few months now, and have no mana base problems. I added one fetch land, and removed a tundra, I added one tropical island for underground sea, and took out one wasteland for the second tropical island. My mana base is this:

5 fetch lands (4 flooded, strand 1 polluted delta)
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 tropical island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Library of alexandria
1 tolarian academy
5 mox
1 sol ring
1 Black lotus
3 Wastelands
1 Strip mine

I have almost never (other than being completely mana screwed) been color hosed. every color has at least nine mana sources that can produce that color first turn (mox,lotus,2lands{at least}, and 5 fetchlands)

The great part about the "hard to achieve combo" is that it is not required.  i agree that it should at least go in the SB of all keeper type decks, and should be considered for inclusion.

I have not tried this, but I would be interested to see, someone take a keeper deck and put in CoW and take out time walk and play a gauntlet before and after. I predict that the CoW version is better, assuming 4 fetchlands,4wastelands and a strip mine. I could be wrong.

Also w/ CoW in mind soldevi excavations becomes much better. I tried it out and eventually cut it for the 3rd tundra but either way seemed about the same.

[Matt]

Zuran Orb is terrible. It's so bad against control and combo and prison and slaver (assuming slaver is neither control nor prison) and that leaves...aggro? Yet modern aggro decks are not the Slighs of yesteryear; if they can't do 20 damage to you, then they'll just untap and do 12 more next turn. Zuran Orb beats burn, but aggro runs less burn and more threats, now.

That said I DO like Crucible-based control. I have a decklist, still in testing, but it seems to retain much of 4cc's strength, while adding a strong lock possibility.

I have never wanted Morphling back since I took it out - around the time Stax first got big.

[Zombie Shakespeare]

Morphling loses a lot of stock in the standard builds of 4cControl that are using a Damping Matrix or two in the sideboard. I played 4cControl versus the older Morphling/Future Sight/Grim Monlith combo build in a tournament last month and Damping Matrix turned his Morphling into a neutered blue Hill Giant.

[Dozer]

First of all, excellent work, Kasuras. I think your conclusions are correct and based on solid reason. Also, they echo my sentiments about the deck, so I like them by default.

I find it remarkable Gorilla Shaman is played only once in most of the decks. Does that mean the artifact based decks are descending again? I'm not so sure, but I think the answer is no. The same goes for Fire/Ice, which I expected to be played twice in most of the lists.

This is mostly a problem of space. You can only cut so many cards, and squeezing in a second Fire/Ice AND a second Shaman is impossible. Most builds I know play 2 Shaman, but only 1 Swords and 1 Fire/Ice as spot removal. The mix is extremely metagame dependent and probably the most often changing maindeck slot. The deck itself is very tight, even if it is as customizable as few other decks. Fitting in something redundant like a second Shaman or another Fire/Ice without cutting another key component is very difficult and requires careful adjustment.

However, I fully agree on the inclusion of Crucible, and I think that with a Crucible maindeck, the loss/absence of the second Shaman can be tolerated. Crucible, as you already mentioned, is a full scale disruption element, more versatile than the Shaman and works in the same matchups.

Dozer

[Matt]

Actually, I like using Crucible AND Shaman for a full-scale war on the opponent's mana. Shaman is one of the very best cards against the good decks - the ones you can't beat by brokenness or playskill alone.

[Jhaggs]

Nice thread.  I started a similliar thread on the topic of Crucible inside 4 color control about a month back:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17430

I think a lot of that thread's discussion is relevant for this thread as well.  While your final build differs from my 4cc build in a couple of areas, in my experience I have found a lot of sucess boarding CoW in for a Wasteland.  I feel that with 4 strip effects and being able to tutor for CoW is enough to get your disruption online.  Further with a resovled CoW, drawing into multiple strips really isn't wanted.  They are a virtually dead cards that become only colorless sources of mana with CoW in play:(

Dozer Writes:

However, I fully agree on the inclusion of Crucible, and I think that with a Crucible maindeck, the loss/absence of the second Shaman can be tolerated. Crucible, as you already mentioned, is a full scale disruption element, more versatile than the Shaman and works in the same matchups.

I have actually tested this alot and have different conclusions for certain matchups.  Currently, 2 shamans in the MD are very necessary as they serve duel puposes, disrupting lands and artifacts (obvisous).  Rarely in an artifact.dec matchup will you wish to see Crucible over Shaman.  An early shaman can spell doom quite often where as an early crucible doesn't have quite the same effect.  You have to ask the question of "Does cutting a Shaman for CoW make the deck stronger?"  I would argue that it doesn't, that in fact it actually hurts it.  I would look to dropping a  wasteland for CoW whenever you wanted to add this land hate artifact to the MD.

I think this situation can further illustrate that CoW will most likely end up being a SB option rather than a MD option.  Zherbus already went over this but just to reiterate, there are several matchups where CoW won't be as bombtastic as you need it to be.  The fish matchup is another story.

Right now I am trying to figure out if CoW can improve the Hulk matchup for 4cc.  It seems logical that this artifact maybe a way to hate out tropical islands.  Has anyone else been boarding in CoW against Hulk?

EDIT: Grammar

[Komatteru]

CoW could be interesting.  A lot of good arguments for and against it.  I'd never consider adding Zuran Orb for it though.  That would be terrible

The other kill is Morphling. Often forgotten and not played much anymore because Decree and more recently Angel took over it's place. The problem with Morphling was that it was way too mana intensive, and that mana was required every turn instead of Decree which only asks for a lot of mana when cast. And that happens mostly at the opponent's end of turn or as a result of a Mana Drain on your side.

First let me state my bias toward Morphling.  I first added Morphling to my type 1 deck when it came out and I said "hey, this looks kinda neat."  I paid $3 for my first Morphlings from a dealer who was considering moving them down to $2 because they weren't selling and he thought they were going to be "a dog."

If you think about it, it's not hugely more mana dependant than Angel.  You don't have to swing for 5 every turn (esp. if you can Time Walk) and it's usually going to be unnecessary to make it fly.  You could, in theory, go aggro with the Angel and dump it real early (3rd turn), but you would never do that.  It might be a turn slower, if you go want to go aggro (but aggro is against the point of 4cControl).  So how much mana are you going to have when you dump either the Angel or Morphling into play?  6 or 7 seems reasonable.  It's always a good argument between the two of them, and I think it's more a matter of personal preference.  I pack an Abyss, which can guarantee a win in game 1 against aggro or strange decks (I faced an Enchantress deck and dumped a 3rd turn abyss, so that pretty much screwed her).

The other point is Morphling itself. Since Morphling can just block the Angel and survive. Morphling is also a card that wins by itself; it doesn't need that much protection Exalted Angel does since it can protect itself.

That's why I give Morphling the nod over Angel.

Exalted Angel also gets around Meddling Mage.

In the one match-up at Origins where I saw Meddling Mage, he named 'Red Blast' first and then 'Balance' next.  I thought he would name Morphling, but those two were far more crippling than naming Morphling ever could have been.  If your opponent needs to name either Morphling or Exalted Angel, he's probably in trouble anyway.

Exalted Angel gets you life.

The life gain is neat, but really secondary.  Against aggro, it can be nice, but you should be able to counter or otherwise remove remaining threats that would kill you (if you can't get rid of them all, you're going to have problems anyway).  Against 'tog, they can wish for Berserk and you're done for anyway.  So the life gain really doesn't do that much for you. Except maybe allow you to fetch a bit more.  But if you need to gain life to fetch, you're probably the square root of screwed anyway.  Recall that Morphling has that untap ability that everyone forgets about.

The Abyss and Moat. These 2 cards are really cards that matter.  The other card, Moat, is one that helps you versus random aggro decks and can even just make them scoop. And: Psychatog and Quirion Dryad don't fly either.

I pack Abyss maindeck and Moat in the board.  They've been favorites of mine since I started playing and I agree that their usefulness has hardly diminished.  If anything, the Abyss has only gotten stronger (although it doesn't hit artifacts, and there's a lot of those running around these days).

Two more things: Morphling can be pitched to FoW in a pinch as long as you have another one in the deck.  That's less than ideal, but can save the game.

Angel also requires more reliance on white.  Blue is already at your heart, but what are you running from white other than Balance and StP (since not everyone includes Moat...or even StP).

[Kushluk]

It's not going to be good against the rest of the field in comparison. Look at the type 1 environment at a glance:

DrainSlaver (NEITHER)          
WorkshopSlaver (NEITHER)  

Minor point: Morphling can self-distruct. Angel cannot.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Morphling likes to suck up your mana and just doesn't seem right anymore,  I cannot bring myself to ever say he's good ever again.  Why would you want to play him when you could just simply play something 3x better.

Crucible I think can be a pretty good idea for a control based deck.  But where i'm seeing this card shine is in workshop decks, obviously you all know you can drop it turn 1, then assure that your workshop will stay safe, and you can wait for a wasteland/strip mine to go to down on the opponents mana base, it also works great if your playing stax or mud, and you can have their board on lock.  Yes alot of the time, especially late game, this card is overkill, BUT I do believe that it has a place in workshop decks, at least as a 1 of or a 2 of.  I think it's pestering, and can do a good job against control.  As for it in control, I think it is a little slow, and is ok for sideboarding, but like I said, it shines in workshop decks to me

[Komatteru]

The more I think about CoW, the more attractive it becomes.  I think it could really be a solid addition to the main deck of a 4c control.  I'm gonna try it in mine and see how it works out for me.

How exactly was this post supposed to add to the discussion?
-Jacob

[Toad]

So how much mana are you going to have when you dump either the Angel or Morphling into play?  6 or 7 seems reasonable.

Against the decks that does not pack burn, you can drop Exalted Angel by turn 3, even by turn 2 with a Mox. And if you can flip it by turn 4 or 5, you've won. No need to ramp up to 7 manas with the Angel.

I pack an Abyss, which can guarantee a win in game 1 against aggro or strange decks

The Abyss should not be an argument in favour of Morphling since The Abyss is really weak. It is by no means a win against Aggro game 1. Madness will blow Rootwallas while beating with 4/4 and 6/6 bodies. FCG can Combo off with Goblin Warchief. TNT, Modular and Stacker does not care about The Abyss. Etc... It's also weak against Tog and GAT (or Gro variants) and the mirror decks packing Angels. I mean, if you are able to resolve The Abyss, you could have as well resolved Yawgmoth's Will, right?

The other point is Morphling itself. Since Morphling can just block the Angel and survive. Morphling is also a card that wins by itself; it doesn't need that much protection Exalted Angel does since it can protect itself.

That's why I give Morphling the nod over Angel.

The Angel does not need protection. You are playing a Control deck right? Your opponent won't focus on your win condition, since they are already dead when you drop it. The most common removal in Type One is Balance, Edict, Smother and Swords to Plowshares. Balance and Edict hit both, Smother none. STP is only used in 4CC and 4CC does not want to see STP in the mirror. Last time I played the mirror on Apprentice, I won because my opponent kept his STP in while I boarded all mine out. STP would probably have been fine if I had dropped an Angel, but they were sitting useless in his hand when I Mindtwisted him.

Exalted Angel gets you life.

The life gain is neat, but really secondary.  Against aggro, it can be nice, but you should be able to counter or otherwise remove remaining threats that would kill you (if you can't get rid of them all, you're going to have problems anyway).  Against 'tog, they can wish for Berserk and you're done for anyway.  So the life gain really doesn't do that much for you. Except maybe allow you to fetch a bit more.  But if you need to gain life to fetch, you're probably the square root of screwed anyway.  Recall that Morphling has that untap ability that everyone forgets about.

Life gain is awesome. It's the reason why we are using Exalted Angel in 4CC. Fish or Gay/Red can't swarm you anymore if your Angel starts swinging. Burn based decks will cry havoc even if you hit them only once. Tog will have hard times to ramp over the Angel and its life gain. Etc... And the life gain allows the deck to pack 4 Skeletal Scrying, which is strong. Two weeks ago, I was testing against GAT. I stabilized the board position at 1 life. He had no threats, and I dropped my win condition. My hand consisted of 2 Skeletal Scrying, 1 Polluted Delta and 1 Force of Will at that point of the game. Remember, he was playing GAT. Morphling has hard times blocking a Quirion Dryad or a Psychatog, and I needed to drop lands, use my counters and draw cards to stay ahead. Guess why Angel won me that game?

[serracollector]

Very good number crunching.  I agree with most accept for the Morphling Theory.  GAT/Tog are too fast for Abyss/Moat even with Crucible, your chances of getting that WW are slim.  Also, I beleive that in you 4cc Angel build, between losing a life every turn to your CoW/Fetchlands and Skeletal Scrying (and Fastbond if you include it, but I don't think ZOrb should be in there, as it's just another way for a Slaver Player to screw u....well I guess fastbond with a CoW is also....anyway) that you should up the Angel Count to 3 and drop one of the Decree's.  Also, Sol Ring should be a Mana Crypt.  It means a faster Crucible/Fast Angel/Fast Scrying/FoF etc etc.  My 2 cents.  Good article.

[Komatteru]

GAT/Tog are too fast for Abyss/Moat even with Crucible, your chances of getting that WW are slim.

You disagree with the Morphling, so I guess that you prefer Angel.  But if your chances of getting that WW are slim, how can you win with the Angel?

[TrixR4Kidz]

Horrible post deleted.
--Toad

[Whatever Works]

GAT/Tog are too fast for Abyss/Moat even with Crucible, your chances of getting that WW are slim.

You disagree with the Morphling, so I guess that you prefer Angel.  But if your chances of getting that WW are slim, how can you win with the Angel?

Does this make any sense? Abyss/Moat have less to do with speed then with the fact that they were replaced with better cards. they lack speed, but how does this have anything to do with angel?

Angel is by far the better card in the deck, and morphling is only used in the mirror to avoid being a STP target. Has anyone ever seen Morphling ever played in a 4cControl deck in the USA?  It worked in Europe because 4cControl is a % of the field that is equivilent to the % of players play GAT before gush was restricted. Morphling is slower and just a much weaker play in all the other matchups especially (gat/tog/FCG)

Like Zerbus said Crucible of Worlds fits in the sideboard, and not in the maindeck, because its just useless vs. alot of decks in the format. Also adding fastbond/zorb/etc. is just an awful idea. the deck is 4cControl not a mix between EBA and a crappy combo deck. The deck is very very tight, and its hard to switch cards because slow few slots you can change (and improve upon). thats why the deck hasnt changed more then 2-5 cards since Zerbus published his version months ago.

[Necropotenza]

Crucible of Worlds
After 3 days playing 4cC in Vintage tourneys in Gen Con I can say that Crucible is worthy MD material as a one-of. If you resolve one early it usually is game breaking against all kind of decks, you can either search for lands with the fetch-lands or waste their non-basics. Against control decks it is really good from early to mid-game and it assures you a great advantage. To top it all it can serve as a way to nullify an early Crucible from a Workshop.dec player which is almost always game over for the 4cC player.

[Moxlotus]

Workshop decks play Crucible?  Which one?  I haven't seen any that do.  Also you have to remember that GenCon was last year and the meta was totally different.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think the basic summary is that crucible is good vs control and aggro/control, but useless vs combo and possibly too slow against aggro.  I think it should be sbed, not mded.

On morphling vs angel: angel is obviously superior in almost every matchup but the mirror, so if morphling has any place at all it would be as sbed mirror match tech.

[Komatteru]

Crucible of Worlds
After 3 days playing 4cC in Vintage tourneys in Gen Con I can say that Crucible is worthy MD material as a one-of. If you resolve one early it usually is game breaking against all kind of decks, you can either search for lands with the fetch-lands or waste their non-basics.

I agree.  I got a chance to play with it last night at a tourney in my 4cc deck and it is amazing.  What makes it so great is that it's a nonessential strategy that your opponent might not see coming.  I just kept wasting away until he had nothing, dropped a Decree, and pounded away.  It was so successful one game that my opponent boarded in Tormod's Crypt in the next (that's pretty ridiculous).  

I highly recommend all 4cc players giving one a spin.  I unfortunately didn't get a chance to test it against 'tog or the mirror, but I'd imagine it would be similarly devestating.

[MisterShark]

Two points to also remember when weighing Crucible's effectiveness:

-The Crucible enables one to pull a fetchie from the grave to act as a  
  shuffler following a Brainstorm.

-Deck thinning via re-used fetchies getting past dead late-game land
  draws when you really need to draw a win condition, etc..

[Toad]

Third point to also remember when weighing Crucible's effectiveness:

- Recurring Wastelands is useless against UG Madness, RG Madness, Vengeur Masque, 2-land Charbelcher, TPS, Food Chain Goblins, Gro-A-Tog, TNT, Stacker, etc...
I mean, It's only good when you managed to stop their first wave, but then you have already won so who cares?

Crucible of Worlds is a dead card in billions of matchups. This is Type One. Fundamental turn = 2, right?

[cssamerican]

Workshop decks play Crucible?  Which one?  I haven't seen any that do.  Also you have to remember that GenCon was last year and the meta was totally different.

MUD, they can drop a Trinisphere turn 1 then follow it up with a Crucible and a Wasteland turn 2. That was the most broken use of Crucible I have seen, and in that deck it is always seems to be a good card even if it isn't involved in a completely degenerate early play. However, 4cControl doesn't have the explosiveness for it to be a non-situational card, and in many matches it would just be a dead draw.

[Sextiger]

Crucible is at most a good metagame choice if your area consists of no combo and all multi color decks.  Resolving a 3 mana Sorcery Speed spell against combo that barely influences a match is not a good idea.  As previously stated, crucible will not affect decks like U/G Madness and FCG.  While you are destroying their land, they are recking you with their numerous low cost threats.  

Adding Crucible to 4C Control would more than often just add another dead card(such as Swords to Plowshares often is) that you would side out frequently.  Crucible as a sideboard card sounds quite promising though.

[MisterShark]

- Recurring Wastelands is useless against UG Madness, RG Madness, Vengeur Masque, 2-land Charbelcher, TPS, Food Chain Goblins, Gro-A-Tog, TNT, Stacker, etc...

Crucible of Worlds is a dead card in billions of matchups. This is Type One. Fundamental turn = 2, right?

Very true but against Fish, Landstill, EBA,   /  Void variants (for the meta's that still have those) it's pretty effective in removing all those man-lands and necessary colors.  Perhaps this sways the Crucible towards the sideboard more.

On a somewhat-related note, perhaps a thread should be started to examine the usefulness of Wastelands in the wake of all the uneffected archetypes that you've mentioned above.

[Komatteru]

Against Fish and Landstill, the Crucible proved to be a very valuable addition to my deck last night.  In addition to allowing you to waste away their man lands and duals, it allows you to recover from their wastelands, which is pretty huge.  We both started with two wastelands in our opening hands, but a 3rd turn crucible made his wastelands a non-factor.  I think I might have otherwise been in trouble that game instead of smoking him.  Granted, that's just a few games, which doesn't warrant the inclusion of a card, but this was only in one night of play (four rounds at that).

On a somewhat-related note, perhaps a thread should be started to examine the usefulness of Wastelands in the wake of all the uneffected archetypes that you've mentioned above.

I think that's a good thing to examine.  I think that Wasteland is still a great card and I don't think that so many people would pack 3-4 if it weren't.  See, everyone likes to rant about dead cards, but you need to consider the alternatives first.  What do you put in instead and does it help you in more matchups than what you want to take out?

Wasteland is a dead card against a lot of combo decks.  The only cards that matters then are Force of Will and Mana Drain (as long as you can get the 2 blue for it first), so there's nothing that's going to help you except playing with less cards, or worthless blue cards you can pitch to FoW.  Neither one of those two seems like a viable option.

Against stuff like TNT and Stacks, Wasteland isn't worthless, since taking out a Workshop can work out pretty well for you.  Against Madness, you can still use it to take out a Bazaar.  So, while the Wasteland's effectiveness might be diminished, it's not completely worthless (like it is against Belcher).

But what would you put in in place of the Crucible?  Then question becomes: how much would it help you not to have a Crucible?  If it's a dead card against all those matchups, would you put something in that is great against all those matchups?  Is there a card that's not already in your deck that helps you out in all machups?  I can't imagine there would be, since such a card should already be in there.  Again, it all comes down to the meta.  If there's a lot of combo, you might not even be playing 4cc anyway.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Wasteland itself does not need re-examining.  The fact that all it costs is a land drop and can also simply provide colourless mana means that it is rarely dead.  Plus, in some matches u need them or die(oh and just imagine facing down a turn 1 loa with no wastelands in your deck).  Also, wasteland is very effective against MUD or other shop decks because you can waste their workshop after they play turn 1 trinisphere, even though cruicible is for the most part too slow in those matchups.

[Zherbus]

This thread went downhill fast. If you want to discuss WASTELAND in 4cC, then the newbie forum is for you.[/color]