[Single Card Discussion] Force of Will: Saving T1?

[Komatteru]

I hope this is the appropriate forum, and I was unable to find a similar post in the first eight pages of a search.  I'm new to the forums here, and I'm trying to make an honest effort at becoming an asset to the community.

Anyway, I was doing some daydreaming at work the other day and thought about Force of Will.  We can all remember when FoW was still legal in T1.x, and how it spent the last year of its life in the format on the watch list--since it was ""wrecking" the format like how Skullclamp was ruining T2 until its recent banning.

However, I offer the following question for debate: is FoW saving T1 right now?  

Yes, saving, not ruining like it did to other formats while it was legal there (even though we really don't care about such things).  I think it is.  Imagine that FoW got banned, restricted (not to imply that either would ever happen), or never even existed. 4c control would be unviable and 'tog and Fish would both face a serious obstacle, if they would still even work.  FoW is the really the only thing that allows control type decks to survive against fast combo (like draw7 or dragon).  Even then, FoW doesn't guarantee a win by any means against such combo decks, as you still have to draw it and a blue card you can afford to pitch in your opening hand (unless you went first, dropped a mox, a land, and Time Walked, which isn't very dependable).  You can mulligan, but that gets iffy quickly.

Although that's just a short argument, I think that FoW is the most important card in the environment, as it allows several decks to be competitive.  I think one of the things we all like about T1 so much is that there are a lot of archtypes that are competitive, which creates for the complex metagame and push toward skill that we crave so much, allowing the environment to be much more exciting (unlike in T2 where there's always been like 3 types that can win).  Simply put, without FoW right now, several decks would stand no chance against combo without a god draw, which doesn't exactly create desire to play them.

What does everyone else think?

Maybe "saving" is too strong a word.  Let me rephrase: do you think that without FoW, T1 would be worse off?

[Jebus]

It seems to be common knowledge that FoW is part of the glue that holds Type 1 together.

[Dr. Sylvan]

This is indeed common knowledge, though it's good to understand why instead of just parroting Smmenen and other full members.

I'm not going to lock this on the off chance something worthwhile will be said, but because it is already conventional wisdom, I'm holding this with a hair-trigger.

Here's something I'd like to get some thoughts on, which could make this thread useful: Is Mana Drain another card that, like FoW, is the glue holding us from oblivion?

[Komatteru]

I apologize if it's common knowledge (and I thank you for not locking it), it's just that I've never heard anyone ever mention it.  I suppose that maybe that's so because it's taken as a given, so the need to speak of it is as trivial as why the Bill of Rights is important to the United States.

I don't think that Mana Drain is "glue holding us from oblivion" like FoW.  Drain speeds things up, as it forces the control player to play some spells instead of sitting around.  It's not an uncommon occurrence that a player ends up burning from Drain every now and then.  And if there were no such thing as Mana Drain, you could run regular counterspell.  The vanilla counterspell isn't going to see play with Drain around, but blue still has a boatload of weapons without the Drain.

Do I think that blue would suffer from the loss of Mana Drain? Quite so.  Do I think that blue would be uncompetitive without Mana Drain?  No.

[Addolorisi]

And if there were no such thing as Mana Drain, you could run regular counterspell.

But there are more than a few spells that are playable because of Drain, and the fact is that many decks rely on the tempo it provides them. Without Drain, those spells are no longer as good, and will see a lot less play. I have no clue what it would do to the format, nor any even remote guesses, so I'll just leave it at that for now.

[Ric_Flair]

One major reason why Force of Will is so good is because it essentially meets unfairness with unfairness.  As a zero casting cost counterspell Force of Will's effect is AMAZINGLY efficient in terms of tempo, which, given the speed of the format, can sometimes be the whole game (card advantage being too slow).  So Force of Will, in that situation at the beginning of the game, makes the uber broken player play TWO broken spells instead of just one.  After the first few turns Force of Will becomes less necessary and just REALLY REALLY good.  In essence, it blocks early brokenness and then later grants a HUGE tempo advantage.

However, I am not sure what this sort of thread adds, other than a chance to see people's theorizing at work.  I guess it is fine, just sorta silly, like a "Why money is good" forum.

[Methuselahn]

Maybe "saving" is too strong a word. Let me rephrase: do you think that without FoW, T1 would be worse off?

I'm not sure T1 would be worse off if the Force never existed.  I think you would see a format that is either dead or one with a very different restricted/banned list.  If FoW never existed, wouldn't the DCI continue to curb combo with restrictions?  I think the format would just adapt that way.   I think it is very difficult to hypothesize however.

[Jacob Orlove]

Even if this is staying open, it's a pretty basic discussion, so it really belongs in Newbie. Moved.

[Matt]

Without Force, bannings would be necessary to keep the format competetive. Hell, it walks a fine line between "playable metagame" and "broken, play deck X or lose" as it is.

[Machinus]

Perhaps, if FoW were any better, or if there were another card that was almost as good at doing what it does (misD is NOT even close), control could be too dominant, instead of just dominant like it is now. It is a fortunate state of affairs for the DCI, and even better for us players. This discussion is admittely very primitive, but it is important for players to understand just how delicately balanced the format is right now, if only so that there will be less bitching and moaning when someone finally does break something and the DCI gets to use their hammer once again. If you want to be optimistic, perhaps one day everyone will know how to use the search tool and can find valuable bits of information like this thread.

[cssamerican]

Here's something I'd like to get some thoughts on, which could make this thread useful: Is Mana Drain another card that, like FoW, is the glue holding us from oblivion?

I would say, YES! Counterspell doesn't even come close to being a replacement for Mana Drain. One of the main functions of Mana Drain is to accelerate a control deck, without that acceleration those decks become much weaker. In order for control to keep up with modern day combo decks like Dragon, it must be able to draw a lot of cards; however, if WotC prints a bunch of cost effective draw cards than combo will just add them to their arsenal. In turn, combo deck will just get stronger, and control will not be able to keep up. This is the interesting thing about Mana Drain, it allows control to run draw that combo can’t run. For instants, Deep Analysis would suck in combo decks because {U} mana and three life for a three-card gain sucks in combo decks; however, {U} and three life for a three-card gain isn’t too shabby for a control deck. I look at it this way, Force of Will controls early brokeness, and Mana Drain is what fuels control decks to be able to keep up in the mid-game. Otherwise combo decks like Dragon will out draw you every game, which will lead to them winning every game.

[Matt]

Mana Drain lets control beat combo that has inevitability. It's not enough these days to just counter that draw7, because they'll just play another, and another, and another if you don't hurry and beat them while you have the chance.

[dromar]

I think Mana Drain is good and important to control, but not at the level of FoW. You wanna win on turn one? No thanks, FoW.

I read an article recently (on SCG I think) that mentioned Mana Drain being a potential restrictee. I don't know how credible that article was, but personally I think that control would be able to rebuild itself if Mana Drain were restricted, although control might swing to the bottom of the food chain for a while. But then again, maybe it'll still do okay.

My question is this:
 The best counterspells in the game:
1. Force of Will
2. Mana Drain
3. ????

What's the third best counter? Where does the basic Counterspell fit in?

[Unearthly]

The only other counterspell that actually sees play in good decks is daze.  Misdirection and stifle are in that category too, if you want to count them.  However, these cards are far from staples like Force of Will and Mana Drain, but rather the last few cards to finish the deck up to 60 cards.

[Komatteru]

I read an article recently (on SCG I think) that mentioned Mana Drain being a potential restrictee.

That's been thrown around a lot.  I don't anyone puts too much stock in that rumor.  If they restrict the Drain, they should restrict Force of Will too, since it would ridiculous to restrict one card and allow something more powerful.  (Like how if they unrestricted Yawgmoth's Will, keeping Regrowth restricted would be retarded).

What's the third best counter? Where does the basic Counterspell fit in?

Maybe 4th behind Misdirection?

[twn_domn]

1.  Common Sense

Force of Will holds T1 together.  Otherwise, the format will just degenerate into a dice rolling game.  Tinker deck in 2003-2004 extended season shows the lack of powerful counter means no interaction and the combo decks just Wins.  

2.  Counter

1. Force of Will
2. Mana Drain
3. REB/Daze/MisD

[Machinus]

The "third counter" debate is about twelve centuries old, well beyond the memories of the humble non-time-traveling TMD user. The truth is, there is no third best counter. Wizards hasn't printed it yet, and if you know anything about 8th edition, the proverbial "bus" that we have all been waiting for is never going to come, and likely neither will our card. Once R&D figured this out, they saw the bus, decided to call the bus's bluff, and raised it one more card on the reserved list - counterspell itself. Counterspell is a 2cc hard counter, which is actually really good, but Mana Drain is just leagues ahead of it so people pass over it like its a Volcanic Hammer or a Grizzly Bear. If you need more than eight counters, you have to base your decision on what deck you are playing. Counterspell, Mana Leak, Memory Lapse, Prohibit, Daze, Misdirection and Circular Logic could all potentially have a strong place in a particular deck, but it depends entirely on what other cards are in the deck.


*Insert Hijack*

Top Ten worst counters NOT ranked

Vex
Arcane Denial
Dispersal Shield
Ertai's Meddling
Assert Authority
Grip of Amnesia
Rites of Refusal
Spelljack
Hindering Touch
Ixidor's Will


Honorable Mention

Psychic Trance - Technically not a counter, but craptastic anyway.

[johnstown713]

I was suprised to hear that there was an article regarding to restricting mana drain.  Aside from FoW it is the best counter that should never be restricted.  It is a good card in its own but in no way worthy of restiction.  It has its own little place in Type 1 just like FoW.

Johnstown713

[Ric_Flair]

The Mana Drain restriction thing is all pretty silly.  Here is the debate we had on the issue:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17970

Based on what was said here I think it is pretty clear that Mana Drain should not be restricted.  It is not too powerful or too dominant.  The only thing that makes it look like it should be even close is the number decks that use it, but there are non-power reasons why this is the case.  In short, Mana Drain's heavy presence is not due to being OVERLY powerful (though it is quite good) but due to other factors.  Mana Drain is actually good for the environment.

As for the third counter debate I think it is pretty clear that REB is the best third counter and has been since the beginning of the format.  There is no real debate over the issue.  It played a big role in Weissman's The Deck and has continually been used since then.  The only people making this a debate are people who have not paid close attention to the format.  Even at the height of their respective popularity, MisD and Mana Leak did not show up in the same amount that REB does.  REB is the third best counter, bar none.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

The fow thing is simple, without fow the format would dengenrate into all combo decks barring actual BANNINGS of combo cards that do not deal with ante or physical dexterity.  In other words, most of the time the winner of the die roll wins the game, or the game just isn't interesting because all of the cool cards are axed and the only types of decks left are prison and aggro.



About drain: YES drain is paramount.  No doubt about it that fow IS better(it is played in more decks because it is more versatile and less reactive), but drain is just as important in stopping combo from taking over the format.

Without it, control wouln't even be close to viable because combo would quickly overwhelm the control player's resources.  Drain mana allows 4cc to skeletal scry or Fof, and hulk to use intuition/ak.

Control would die, and only prison decks would be left to stop combo, and due to the lack of fow in prison's arsenal, it can do nothing when playing 2nd, and if it's 1st turn play is forced it can easily lose.

Combo decks would become the best decks, and thus most games would be akin to solitaire with the occasional fow response.  That's not a healty environment.

Drain is nearly as important to t1 as force of will is; without it the format dies.