Madness Wins Against Fish: Continues To Be Bad Deck

[Lyhrrus]

Right now Trinisphere wrecks Madness.  Strips wreck madness.  FCG plays piano on Madness.  Cruicible would be great in Madness except it has trouble ramping to 3 mana when running 22 sources.  I really feel there needs to be 23 (extra basic for added resiliency).

I remember Jacob saying something about Madness being able to regularly pump out 7 damage a turn.  That at best comes by turn 3, and usually turn 4-5.  Maybe I'm not playing the deck right, but I don't like to mull aggressively (into Null Rod or FoW unless it's combo, and even then FCG is just bad) with so few mana sources.

Logic sucks, period.  I have never had a game (yet) where I wanted Logic over Daze (the couple where Logic would have countered where Daze would not, I had already lost).  As JP said in the old U/G post, you need to use your mana aggressively, and can barely afford to leave more than U open, hence, why not use something free.  Madness is an aggro strategy, which is why it beats fish, but sucks overall.  20 life really is too much.

Stifle really needs to be played in Madness to both protect it's own sources and give it something more to do Turn 1 (better matchup against Combo as well).  I really can't see MisD being of much use right now (unless you're playing in a Sui/Sligh saturated meta).  Oxidize is also a possibility, though I think the chance of it being a dead draw precludes it from MD.  Maybe there's room for Echoing Truth though I doubt it since the 2 slot is pretty packed.   Possibly Chain of Vapor?

Also, looking at the Deep Anal slot, I was considering running Squee.  The amount of tempo traded for the additional two cards is counter-productive to Madness's aggro strategy.  Yes, I know it's -2 blue cards for Force, but Deep Anal doesn't come online until turn 3-4, when you usually want to be dropping more threats.  Also, in prolonged games, Squee becomes card advantage with tempo for Madness.  I haven't tested this out yet but will be.

Ground Seal is considered standard in the Sideboard of U/G Madness already.  The only other choice might be Tormod's Crypt, but that's not so hot with Null Rod (or the ability for welder to weld out Null Rod).  Depending on your meta:

Welder, Workshop, 7/10, etc:  Ground Seal, Crypt, Oxidize
Dragon: Ground Seal, Gaea's Blessing, Crypt
Tog: B2B, Stupefying Touch, Crypt
FCG: BEB
Fish: Oxidize, BEB? (yes, oxidize, takes out Factories and their eventual Crucible)
4CC: B2B

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Allow me to also chime in on the daze issue.  Yes, daze is way better than logic.  Allowing you to protect your outlet while tapping out fore more threats is amazing, and in my testing logic IS TOTAL CRAP.  

Don't cut deep alaysis, though, because it is the only draw engine the deck has as it is.  

The main strength of madness is this: mongrel is insane.  The deck has potential for great power but the lack of disrption and inconsistency combine with reliance upon a madness outlet to make it weak.  Daze helps this, somewhat, by protecting your outlet and disrupting your opponent.

The fact is, however, that there seems to be little reason to play madness over fish except to beat fish, and many of the reasons for this have been mentioned above.

[Lyhrrus]

I'll report back more as soon as I've tested, but in theory, Madness plays much more aggressively than Fish.  It doesn't want to spend a turn drawing cards, which are going to be pitched to maintain damage output.  It'd rather be dropping additional threats.  Squee allows that, especially with Aquamoeba.  The major con to dropping Deep Analysis is the drop in blue cards, which shouldn't hurt Madness too much.  I'm not too well versed in this theory, but I guess it falls under "virtual card advantage".

Deep Anal

Turn 2:  Madness Outlet
Turn 3:  Pitch Deep Anal, Flashback  +1 card overall
Turn 4:  Pitch card (possible Wurm or Rootwalla) +0 card overall
Turn 5:  Pitch card -1 card overall

Pros:  Pitches to Force of Will, can dig into additional threats

Squee

Turn 2:  Madness Outlet
Turn 3:  Pitch Squee, -1 card overall
Turn 4:  Return Squee, pitch Squee, -1 card overall
Turn 5:  Return Squee, pitch Squee, -1 card overall

So after 3 turns of pitching, Squee will become the better option (in terms of card advantage).  The hidden factor here is that you have more mana open Turn 3 to drop an additional threat whereas under the Deep Anal situation, it takes another full turn.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Squee is just something you pitch for damage.  It is useless if your outlet gets destroyed.  Deep draws you cards and lets you cast more threats and not run out of steam even if your outlet is destroyed.  The deck needs a draw engine; EVERY good deck has one (yes, even FCG has ringleader).Comparing squee when you have no draw engine with it (no bazaar/compulsion, etc) to a deep which actually DRAWS you cards makes no sense.  Squee isn't even a threat on it's own; it's just sub optimal in madness.

[kirdape3]

Madness just won a Twister here in Rochester - 47 players including yours truly.  Despite him not running a lot of cards that he'd want (like a fourth Null Rod between main and board) because he didn't have them all, the deck overmatched Fish, 4c, and beat a couple of Workshop decks silly.  It's pretty good still, and anybody that says otherwise is either not playing correctly or has an inferior version.

[Ferrismonk]

I was just wondering if anyone had tried running back to basics instead of Null Rod.  As a U/G player, It isn't too difficult to asdjust the mana base to not only prevent mana screw from your opponent, but also to screw the best decks out there.   If you are certain that you don't want the bazaar engine, B2B might not be a bad way to go.   It seals the nail in the coffin against Fish and 4cc.  It also helps against Dragon if you get it early enough and hurts TNT/Stax in a similar way to Null Rod by attacking thier mana base.

[Phantomz]

Null rod is needed maindeck and that's one of the key cards in madness. Back to Basics is in the sideboard and all you need to do it side it in afterwards. Back to Basics would be too slow against Dragon in my opinion.

I've been also finding the deck is slow(I'm playing the budget version) as other people have stated. I'm going to test out daze and see how that works out.

I'm also going to see if I can find that decklist that kirdape3 mentioned.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think this quote is form jacob: "madness or fish without null rod is called crap."  It's true.  Without rod combo and slaver just destroy you, and workshop decks have a walk in the park.  In the kind of meta we have today, cutting rod for ANYTHING is insane.

That definitely wasn't me. If I had to guess, I'd say it was a JP quote, but this is the first time I've seen it so don't quote me on that (heh).

-Jacob

[kirdape3]

Back to Basics is used in conjunction with Null Rod to lock down mana bases - but there are better cards for your board than that (like Gilded Drake, who defeats 7/10 and 4c).

[Ferrismonk]

@Gandalf_The_White_1
I guess I hadn't really thought of Slaver, I guess I can see why Null Rod is better then.  It's just a shame because back to basics wrecks people apart and I don't like my moxes staying tapped.  

@kirdape3
I agree that Gilded Drake is a must in the side, he's a house against 4cc.  He's also not bad against TNT.  I was wondering about B2B main instead of Null Rod because of the prevalence of decks with lots of non-basics, there is not really room for both, if you run B2B, you can't run Bazaar very effectively and if you run Null Rod, it hurts playing with all 7 SoLoMoxen.

On a related note, what about waterfront bouncer?  He's a madness outlet and he does great things when combined with the drake.  I've seen some people also using him against TNT to get rid of platinum angel.  Granted he's just another 1/1 dork, but I was wondering how he's been working for people.

-Travis-

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Null rod doesn't make moxes stay tapped, it just makes it so they cannot be tapped for mana.

There is no way this deck should be running a full set of power.  Just lotus and the 2 on-colour moxes are necessary for a powered version.  (somtimes not lotus, though, if you are worried about welders messing with your null rods)

Bouncer is slow at 2cc for a 1/1 and having to tap and pay mana to activate as an outlet.  The drake combo is also clunky and unessesary.

[Raven Fire]

Bouncer is slow at 2cc for a 1/1 and having to tap and pay mana to activate as an outlet.  The drake combo is also clunky and unessesary.

Yes, the Drake combo is jank (but funny in more casual games), but Bouncer on its own is a decent answer for Angels, Darksteels, etc.  It allows you to maintain a reasonable number of Madness outlets while dealing with oversized fat (putting them back in your opponent's hand is often better than putting them into their yard).  I use a couple in my sideboard for 4CC, Oathstill, and Tog matches.