Ephraim
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« on: January 20, 2004, 02:29:32 pm » |
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I've posted this deck before, as it is easily my favourite casual deck. I've been playing with it a lot lately and I've noticed a problem with the way it handles and I'm wondering if anybody could offer advice to improve the way it plays.
The basic principle of the deck is to get 4 creatures into the graveyard fast and then recycle the utility creatures as necessary to handle any threat the opponent lays on the table.
The Basis (4) 4 Oversold Cemetery
Creatures (28) 4 Sandbar Merfolk (utility) 3 Carrion Feeder 3 Ravenous Rats (utility) 4 Abyssal Gatekeeper (utility) 3 Mesmeric Fiend (utility) 3 Spiketail Hatchling (utility) 3 Man-o'-War (utility) 3 Raven Familiar (utility) 1 Stronghold Assassin 3 Highway Robber (utility) 1 Sengir Vampire
Artifacts (5) 2 Jinxed Idol 1 Lightning Coils 2 Skull Catapult
Mana Sources (20) 13 Swamp 5 Island 2 Tainted Isle
Creatures marked (utility) are sacrificed, sometimes recklessly, until an Oversold Cemetery hits the table. At that point, the deck should be in control, since it can recur an answer to any problem, every turn. Carrion Feeder, Stronghold Assassin, Jinxed Idol, and Skull Catapult provide outlets for sacrifices, as well as providing useful functions, themselves.
A note on the presence of 4 copies of Sandbar Merfolk and Abyssal Gatekeeper: I am never unhappy to see one or more Sandbar Merfolk in my opening hand. 3 Carrion Feeders aren't enough 1-drops, so having 4 Sandbar Merfolk gives me early cheap creatures, if I have no other 1-drops, plus quickly fills my graveyard and digs into my deck, if I do have other 1-drops. Abyssal Gatekeeper is the only utility creature in the deck that I benefit from having more than one copy in play. If I can chain two or more Abyssal Gatekeepers, the effect on my opponent's board development can be devastating.
A note on the inclusion of only 20 land: The mana curve of this deck isn't exactly low. However, there are enough 1- and 2-drops that the deck can be a little more patient about hitting its stronger cards (most notably Highway Robber and Skull Catapult). Furthermore, even if I find myself extremely mana screwed, discarding a card or two, while detrimental to my tempo, doesn't harm the deck in the long run, as I can just dig up the discarded creature later, when I hit an Oversold Cemetery.
A note on the presence of both Ravenous Rats and Mesmeric Fiend: It is not that I need 6 hand disruption cards throughout the game, but that Ravenous Rats is more useful in the early game, when I don't have a sacrifice outlet readily available, whereas Mesmeric Fiend is much better in the mid-late game, when I've got a Carrion Fiend or a Skull Catapult on the table.
The problem I'm currently running into is that Man-o'-War isn't doing anything. 4 Abyssal Gatekeepers, 2 Skull Catapults, 2 Jinxed Idols and 1 Stronghold Assassin can usually kill anything my opponent lays down. Therefore, bouncing creatures seldom provides me with any benefit whatsoever (the exception being when I bounce a chump to force the sacrifice of a bigger threat, which requires fairly specific circumstances). I'm looking for another utility creature to fill that position. Bottle Gnomes are under consideration, since they cost the same and have a function that is currently only filled (albeit extremely well) by Highway Robber. I am also toying with the possibility of Rootwater Diver and Crystal Chimes to protect my artifacts and enchantments, which are pretty vulnerable right now.
In summary, possible changes: -3 Man-o'-War +3 Bottle Gnomes
-3 Man-o'-War -1 Sandbar Merfolk -1 Sengir Vampire +3 Rootwater Diver +2 Crystal Chimes
If anybody else could suggest replacements for the Man-o'-Wars, I'd appreciate it. Aside from the Man-o'-Wars, one of the Sandbar Merfolk may go if and only if the suggested replacement is a 1-drop. The Sengir Vampire is also expendable as he's really only a cool fatty that fills up a spare slot in the deck.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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Dj Nohayritmo
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« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2004, 06:58:58 pm » |
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Maybe you could consider Oath of Ghouls, its a lot better against creatureless decks, and also you could run Buried Alive to search for the creatures that you really need in the midgame (I would suggest you to run 2).
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Ephraim
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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2004, 10:56:36 pm » |
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Oath of Ghouls is neat, but I don't think it's quite what this deck is looking for. I agree, it's awesome against creatureless decks. However, this deck was designed for casual play and I assure you, everybody around here is using plenty of creatures. That said, while I'd be a ferocious powerhouse in the early game, with Oath of Ghouls, I'd get worse and worse as the game proceeds. Since I have a tendency to maintain between 6 and 8 creatures in the graveyard and I am usually killing everything that hits the table, once I take control, there's a definite point where I will no longer be able to recur, and then this deck comes to a screeching halt. Now, you might be saying that I should have won, by that point, and you're probably right. But if I haven't, then the Oversold Cemeteries will allow me to continue my inexorible march to victory while the Oaths of Ghouls will sit there and leave me wishing for an answer. (not to mention that I already have 4 Oversold Cemeteries and 0 Oaths of Ghouls)
As for Buried Alive, I've gone back and forth on whether to include it a lot. Just about every time I spread this deck out on my bed and look it over for revisions, Buried Alive is right there in the things I might want to include. However, I keep coming to the conclusion that I want to keep the creature density as high as possible. I very seldom run into the situation where the particular creature I need just isn't showing up and when I do, the rest of the deck can usually stall until I get it. That's one of the main reasons that Raven Familiar is in here - to help me dig frantically when the card I need is buried somewhere.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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Ephraim
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The Casual Adept
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2004, 07:32:38 pm » |
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Jolting Merfolk is too expensive and since I can't stack Fading propertly to get the creature back right away, I won't use Jolting Merfolk.
The price is right on Bottle Gnomes, but it just doesn't add needed functionality to the deck.
However, Wizard Replica is just what I need. The price is right, it flies, it has high toughness, and it sacrifices for a useful effect. Man-o'-War is out, Wizard Replica is in.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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Ephraim
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2004, 01:00:06 am » |
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I finally broke down and decided to try Buried Alive in this deck. The results were understandably amazing. Of all my decks, I think this one has the best chance of making the move to competive play, so I've been working on a fantasy build on MWS. Except for the old-fashioned dual lands, I've got the rest of the cards necessary to build this deck, as-is.
Creatures (27) 4 Blood Pet 4 Carrion Feeder 2 Abyssal Gatekeeper 2 Mesmeric Fiend 2 Cloud of Fairies 2 Spiketail Hatchling 2 Wizard Replica 2 Nantuko Husk 2 Raven Familiar 1 Dross Harvester 2 Death's Head Buzzard 2 Highway Robber
Non-creature Permanents (8) 2 Jinxed Idol 4 Oversold Cemetery 2 Skull Catapult
"Tutors" (5) 2 Lim-Dul's Vault 3 Buried Alive
Land (20) 12 Swamp 4 Tainted Isle 4 Underground Sea
I had more one-of's and some three-of's during testing, so this exact build hasn't been tested yet. I was running into problems where my one-of's were getting Swords'd, and I didn't have another copy to tutor out, and my three-of's were clogging up my hand/graveyard. Hopefully this build will be a little more consistent.
Right now, I am considering splashing green to get a little bit more utility. The changes are looking like: -8 Swamp -2 Spiketail Hatchling -2 Cloud of Fairies
+4 Tainted Wood +4 Bayou +2 Urborg Elf +2 Viridian Zealot
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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Pinky
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2004, 02:56:54 am » |
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Doesn't Skullclamp fit this deck perfectly? It allows you to put creatures in your graveyard and draw extra cards.
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Ephraim
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2004, 03:08:35 am » |
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I hadn't thought of Skullclamp. I've always focused so much on doing stuff with the creatures in the deck that I didn't give much thought to other stuff I could add. I'll give Skullclamp a try, in place of Raven Familiar, since I only ever use the bird as a card drawing engine, anyhow. My only concern would be with having creatures available to pitch to the Skullclamp. With the bird, it gets me a card, then goes away on its own. With the Skullclamp, I have to provide a sacrifice, which is sometimes scarce, since the deck already has a lot of outlets for sacrificing creatures.
On the other hand, I might replace Skull Catapult. The Catapult is very useful, but with a casting cost of 4, it's a hindrance to this deck being competetive. Plus, that would be a swap of one sacrifice outlet for another.
I'll probably test with both changes, anyhow. I can make my decision when I've got a little more data under my belt.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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Ephraim
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2004, 09:19:37 pm » |
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Okay, I'm sure y'all are sick to death of hearing about this stupid deck, but I've been toying with it since the last post and have made some big revisions. For one, I've decided not to take the deck into serious, competetive play. Testing online showed that it just wasn't good enough. That meant I could better tune the deck to deal with a casual environment - creature heavy, no sideboards.
Creatures (23) 2 Druid Lyrist 2 Scavenger Folk 2 Spore Frog 2 Veteran Explorer 4 Carrion Feeder 2 Abyssal Gatekeeper 2 Mesmeric Fiend 2 Raven Familiar 1 Dross Harvester 1 Stronghold Assassin 2 Highway Robber 1 Duplicant
Artifacts (7) 2 Skullclamp 2 Jinxed Idol 1 Lightning Coils 2 Skull Catapult
Spells (10) 3 Worldly Tutor 4 Oversold Cemetery 3 Buried Alive
Land (20) 9 Swamp 7 Forest 4 Island
At the moment, Duplicant, Stronghold Assassin, and Lightning Coils are under testing. I performed some edits just today that left me with 3 unfilled slots. I'm pretty sure I like Stronghold Assassin and Lightning Coils has done well in the past. Duplicant was just what caught my eye when I was looking for something to put in the last slot.
Since the last time I posted, I've increased the green component and decreased the blue component a great deal. Wizard Replica and Spiketail Hatchling just weren't providing enough control for me to make any difference. Scavenger Folk and Druid Lyrist give me more utility, have better synergy with Skullclamp and Oversold Cemetery, and are also one-drops (having 14 one-drops in the deck now has really helped my early game.) Veteran Explorer replaced Urborg Elf, which briefly held a spot in the deck to smooth my mana out. Veteran Explorer has the same synergy benefits as the Scavenger Folk and Druid Lyrist and does a better job of smoothing my mana. Spore Frog is a totally new addition. After seeing it totally lock up games in Genesis-based decks, I added it and it has worked miracles against decks that depend on attacks to win.
I've since removed Lim-Dul's Vault or Diabolic Intent or any of the other things I was once using to search. Buried Alive and Worldy Tutor do all the searching I need. If the deck-thinning of Buried Alive and Veteran Explorer don't get me to an Oversold Cemetery, they're not particularly more likely to get me to a tutor.
Despite using Skullclamp, I've also kept Raven Familiar (now the only Blue card in the deck). It allows me not only to draw, but to restock, rifles through the deck faster than Skullclamp, and also has nice synergy with Skullclamp, since it offs itself during my next upkeep.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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hispls
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« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2004, 12:42:20 pm » |
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This type of strategy was the world champion deck a number of years ago (Brian Seldon I think) Anyway I have the gold bordered version of it somewhere, it is so fun. It's engine is survival of the fittest and reoccurring nightmare (sp?) Anyway there is only like one or two of each utility creature plus mana acceleration. It runs reanimating a fatty for the kill (verdant force or spirit of the night) triskellion might be nice too in this style cause you're not worried about casting cost, and it is very multitasking. . It ran mostly creatures with coming into play abitys like wall of roots, nekrataal, some falcon that dusts enchantments, etc, etc. If you care I can hunt around and try to find the decklist for it. It might give you some good ideas.
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"In the end I decided that degenerate decks were actually part of the fun. People would assemble them, play with them until they got bored ... and then retire the deck...a Magic version of putting the champion out to stud"--R. Garfield (1994)
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Ephraim
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The Casual Adept
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2004, 11:09:29 pm » |
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I've seen the decklist somewhere. I've actually concluded that Survival of the Fittest isn't quite what I'm looking for. I realized that late in the game, Oversold Cemetery provides me with plenty of creatures to cast. Early in the game, when I need creatures, I don't want to be discarding them. Worldly Tutor serves better in this situation.
Also, Recurring Nightmare, while an excellent way to get a fatty into play, is less efficient at getting small creatures on the board. Although I need 4 creatures in the graveyard for Oversold Cemetery to do its work, it requires nothing behind the initial investment. That means if I get multiple Cemeteries on the table, I can very early recur multiple creatures.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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Ephraim
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Posts: 2938
The Casual Adept
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« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2004, 11:01:54 am » |
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Well, this deck has continued to evolve. It's finally gotten to the point where all of the "utility" cards are just singletons. I thin the deck enough, draw enough, and search well enough that they don't really need to be anything else. I still fear Swords to Plowshares, but less-so, because most of my stuff can readily be sacrificed to save it from RFG.
Because this is a casual deck, some of the card choices (specifically Abyssal Gatekeeper and Cackling fiend) remain in the deck to help things out in multiplayer.
I have also recently distinguished between creatures that are purely for utility - silver bullets, if you will (which show up as singletons) and creatures that, while serving utility functions, also help the deck in general, which leads to them being included as multiple copies.
Non-Utility Creatures (13) 4 Veteran Explorer 4 Carrion Feeder 3 Raven Familiar 2 Juggernaut
Utility Creatures (9) 1 Spore Frog 1 Druid Lyrist 1 Scavenger Folk 1 Abyssal Gatekeeper 1 Mesmeric Fiend 1 Hanna, Ship's Navigator 1 Highway Robber 1 Faceless Butcher 1 Cackling Fiend
Artifacts (6) 2 Skullclamp 2 Genesis Chamber 2 Skull Catapult
Spells (10) 2 Worldly Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 4 Oversold Cemetery 3 Buried Alive
Land (22) 2 Plains 4 Island 7 Forest 9 Swamp
Veteran Explorer turned out to be this deck's most explosive first turn play. Everybody loves killing him, so getting him to the graveyard isn't usually difficult. He provides critical mana-smoothing and strong acceleration. Testing has proven to me that this deck makes better use of these factors than opponents. Even with 8 and 9 mana on the board, I can regularly find a use for all of it. Equipping Veteran Explorer with Skullclamp is amazing.
I was previously using Duplicant to effect pest control, but I had overlooked Faceless Butcher. I already regularly engage in Mesmeric Fiend tricks. I now add Faceless Butcher tricks to the deck's reppetoire.
I removed Jinxed Idol, which was infinitely fun, but which just wasn't doing as much as it used to. Genesis Chamber provides me with chump blockers and Skullclamp targets. Since many of my creatures don't stick around very long, even if this provides me with only one or two grey men, it really helps shore up my defense. Because I often play one or more creatures each turn, it has the capacity to generate many more than one or two grey men.
The addition of White and Hanna, Ship's Navigator was recent and tentative. I pride myself on this deck being able to handle every situation that can be thrown at it. When it was pointed out to me that a simple Disenchant can shut me down cold, I decided the problem needed to be addressed. While adding a fourth colour to the deck is risky, experience with the Veteran Explorer makes me confident I will seldom have much problem with the mana.
With the addition of White, I am also considering adding Benevolent Unicorn. Stupid Red Burn can provide this deck with trouble, since it circumvents much of the deck's table-control aspects. The Unicorn could provide me with a few critical turns in which to stablize.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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Ephraim
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2004, 10:04:13 am » |
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Post Fifth Dawn Pet Cemetery UpdateFifth Dawn didn't add too much to my toolbox. However, metagame considerations have caused certain aspects of this deck to change (yes, even casual arenas have metagames!) Furthermore, as slots have cleared up in the deck, I've been able to add marginal cards to my toolbox to shore up lesser weaknesses with which I could not previously concern myself. Utility Creatures (14)1 Spore Frog 2 Mesmeric Fiend 1 Vedalken Mastermind 1 Gravegouger 1 Hunting Moa 1 Eternal Witness 1 Juggernaut 1 Anger 1 Nantuko Vigilante 2 Faceless Butcher 1 Highway Robber 1 Triskelion Non-Utility Creaures (11)4 Carrion Feeder 4 Veteran Explorer 3 Raven Familiar Tutors (6)2 Worldly Tutor 1 Demonic Tutor 3 Buried Alive Other Spells (8)2 Skullclamp 2 Skull Catapult 4 Oversold Cemetery Land (21)10 Forest 7 Swamp 3 Island 1 Mountain *** Druid Lyrist and Scavenger Folk were recently replaced by Nantuko Vigilante. This is a change that was made due to metagame considerations. The Vigilante is far more expensive than either of the other two. However, it does serve the same purpose as both of them in a single card. There are a couple of reasons I switched to it. One, if I have enough mana, whether I have Anger in the graveyard or not, I can use it the turn I cast it. Two, Planar Void has become a common answer in my area, in response to reanimators and decks like mine growing in popularity. Having to sacrifice the Druid Lyrist to deal with Planar Void resulted in me losing the ability to deal with future enchantments. Using a single card that doesn't remove itself from the game in dealing with Planar Void is critically important. I removed the last Abyssal Gatekeeper (the deck's namesake) in favour of a second Faceless Butcher. The Butcher just offers me more control of the board - and is a popular target for removal from the game. Also, being able to tutor for a second copy prior to getting an Oversold Cemetery into play has often saved my bacon. With the arrival of Fifth Dawn, I was able to scrap the terribly inefficient Hanna, Ship's Navigator from my deck and run the much more efficient Eternal Witness. Being able to rescue artifacts and enchantments makes the deck much more resillient to hate. Ocassionally, it's nice to dig up a Demonic Tutor for another use, as well. Cackling Fiend is also out. A second copy of Mesmeric Fiend fills that position much better. The Fiend was in the deck to handle the occasional multi-player game that this deck sees, but I found that even in multi-player games, I'm better off taking a specific card from one opponent than allowing each opponent to discard their worst card. Genesis Chamber's time in the deck was very brief. It didn't take long for me to realize that for all the grey men it provided me, it also gave my opponents a good way to weather the board control I was directing at them. Any time that Genesis Chamber would clearly help me more than an opponent, I should already be in a position to win, already. (ie: a win more card.) With 4 Veteran Explorers, it was becoming clear to me that I didn't need 22 lands. 21 lands are sufficient, with a shift toward green dominance. There are more black than green cards in the deck, but with Veteran Explorer, it is critically important that I get an early Forest. I also concluded that I didn't need two copies of Juggernaut. One is enough. These changes leave five open slots in the deck. Anger: I've toyed with the idea of including Anger for quite a while, but I didn't always have room in the deck for him. Also, with the deck being centered on control, haste was often of marginal benefit. He's been useful enough, though, and the requirement of having a Mountain in play hasn't typically been of any great concern. He makes my beaters (Juggernaut and Triskelion) a bit more efficient Triskelion: He's proven himself very worthy. He makes killer board control versus weenies and is also a formidable beater. Clamping a Triskelion after removing all of his counters is also very nice. On the occasions when I've had Triskelion, Oversold Cemetery, Skull Catapult, and Anger all up and running, I've had the impressive experience of casting Triskelion, attacking with it (4 damage), removing all three counters (3 damage), then throwing it with the catapult (2 damage) for a total of 9 damage, for the low cost of  . Vedalken Mastermind: I hadn't spotted this one in the spoiler, so he didn't get the same sort of proxy-testing that Eternal Witness did. Again, because of Planar Void, I wanted to see if I could get some recursion out of my stuff without it needing to go through my graveyard. His  {U} mana cost is a little bit daunting, but being able to save any of my permanents is a nice function. Time will tell whether his inclusion's worthwhile. Gravegouger: As previously noted, graveyard-based decks are seeing quite a bit of play in my area lately. This guy's my answer to them. Hunting Moa: I had a slot still available and I noticed a good interaction with Carrion Feeder. The Feeders can already be a beating, if I can have them survive long enough to get a lot of counters. If I've gone into a long game and my opponent has a lot of life, Hunting Moa can make the inevitable win arrive a bit faster (nobody scoops in casual.) In this deck, it essentially read: Hunting Moa  {G} Sorcery Put three +1/+1 counters on target Carrion Feeder.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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Ephraim
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Posts: 2938
The Casual Adept
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2004, 10:12:11 pm » |
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I've made a small, but significant update to the deck. Vedlaken Mastermind was too mana-intensive for the deck, so it was removed. I also discovered that in any situation where I might want a large beater, Triskelion or Carrion Feeder did the job, which made Juggernaut superfluous. This left two slots, which I filled with Spawning Pit. Having more sacrifice outlets isn't a bad thing. Having more options as to what to do with my sacrifices is also very good. The numbers on Spawning Pit are similar to those for Carrion Feeder. For each two sacrifices, I get two additional points of creature damage. Which outlet is more useful depends on whether I am in greater need of one large beater or of several small beaters.
Summary: -1 Juggernaut -1 Vedalken Mastermind
+2 Spawning Pit
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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Dream_Merchant
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« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2004, 05:56:08 am » |
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How about hermit druid instead of buried alive. He should be able to do roughly the same but also netting you a land in hand. But then perhaps you should up the eternal witness count to retrieve possible oversold cemetaries sent to the yard. Instead of skull catapult try using Krovikan Horror. I run two of them in my survival build and believe me they are good. Also try running symbiotic elf over hunting moa. Sure it costs 1 more mana but it doesnt have echo, thus giving you the option of having it around for longer and it doesnt need another creature for its ability.
well if you want to screw your mana a bit try adding white for devout witness she is not only a permanent artifactoenchantment blaster but she also comes with discard effect.
I see you run cheap creatures mostly. Hows your hand size. I haven't really playtested the deck but if you see that you are working with very little cards by mid game try running oath of scholars instead of raven familiars. ( althought the familiars are creatures etc etc.. anyway your choice, just ideas. )
instead of spore frog, spike weaver? sure he is mana heavy but a lot better. also interaction with triskelion. ( forgive me i keep on thinking of conspiracy theories with carrion feeders counters and weavers, feeders, trisks, forgotten ancients etcetc another deck )
well thats some stuff from the top of my head. good luck , seems like a fun deck!
EDIT: I see you dont run Sacrifice (TM) Ancestral Recall, Yavimaya Elder. I don't know though with your land count probably veteran explorer is a better idea.
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dandan
More Vintage than Adept
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2004, 07:14:22 am » |
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I would like to second that Krovikan Horror suggestion. I run it in my highlander UG Survival deck and he is usually one of the first creatures I Survival for. I also find Plaguebearer and that 1/1 Echo creature killer useful. Oath is far too strong not to include. With Green Hermit Druid and Wall of Roots seem too good not to use and Yavimaya Elder is probably worth altering your mana base for. Krosan Tusker cycles, gets you a land and puts a fat body in the graveyard.
If you must run Blue then Dreams of the Dead is probably one of the most savage graveyard recursions spells ever. It has very bad synergy with Oversold Cemetry but if you are using Mastermind (I'm not a fan of his) then you might consider Dreams too.
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Playing bad cards since 1995
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Dream_Merchant
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« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2004, 09:11:56 am » |
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i dont think the deck can support plaguebearer, unless you are whiping 1CC non black creatures with 3 mana or 2CC with 5. bone shredder is good no doubt, but with so much sac the faceless butcher is just better. basically he becomes a recursive 2BB StP without lifegain which is better then a 2B terror anyday.
wall of roots and krosan tusker good ideas. Dreams of the Dead.... oh gawd. yeah 4 copies of eon hub and 4 copies of stifle+isochron scepter NOW. terrible card. how come you think its any good? if you feel like shooting things at people there is Dawn of the Dead or Corpse Dance and they're in color.
regarding question of oath of ghouls vs oversold cemetary. it all depends on your metagame. if people are not playing creatures oath ++, otherwise cemetary since you dont want others abusing your thing.
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Ephraim
Adepts
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Posts: 2938
The Casual Adept
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« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2004, 09:32:06 am » |
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Krovikan Horror: This is definitely something worth testing. Since it is a creature, it has far more synergy with the rest of the deck that Skull Catapult. I am somewhat concerned about the fact that it deals less damage than Skull Catapult, though. Although it is probably better once I've stablized the board, since it is a 2/2 beater as well as a source of direct damage, it is also probably worse during the period during which I am trying to stablize the board, since it requires more sacrifices to deal the same amount of damage. I will certainly test with it, but is important to note that I have less concern for having overwhelming power after I've taken control of the board than for having irresistable influence, which yields control of the board.
Plaguebearer and Bone Shredder are interesting, but are limited. The number of slots I have available for creature kill are few. To make the absolute best use of those slots, it is of critical importance that I am able to kill black creatures as well. This led to the inclusion of Faceless Butcher, which has the added bonus of removing the creature from the game entirely. Although it costs more, it has great synergy with the rest of the deck. In fact, once I discovered Nightmare Tricks, the focus of the deck shifted subtly to ensure that I should always be able to use them. The dependence on a sacrifice outlet is seldom an issue anymore. I have considered using Bone Shredder in the past, I finally concluded that the added consistency of two Faceless Butchers was worthwhile.
Hermit Druid: I might test with this, but truthfully, he scares the hell out of me. Granted, I have plenty of basic lands in the deck, so he is liable not to do too much damage, but the chances for him to do irrevocable harm are there. While he may get a lot of creatures into the graveyard, it is also important to note that he may not get the specific creatures I want into my graveyard. Since I have just one copy of many creatures, once I've begun to roll, Buried Alive allows me to search for the three tools that I think I will need most. It is not uncommon for me to fetch Anger, Triskelion, and Spore Frog. All three of those are singletons, which would very hard to locate reliably with Hermit Druid.
Dreams of the Dead: Absolutely not. This deck relies on being able to recur its creatures perpetually in order to win. I live in constant fear that somebody will be able to remove my stuff from the game. I'm not about to help them do so, myself.
Devout Witness: I've tried adding white to the deck and it screws the mana base something fierce. Maybe if I weren't running Anger + Mountain, I could squeeze in a couple of Plains. It would be nice to have something more efficient than Nantuko Vigilante with which to work. On the other hand, she works nicely with Anger. Unfortunately, even with Veteran Explorer, it can be difficult to get all the basic land types I need, as it is. Without multiple Explorers, I can end up without a Mountain in play, already. Adding a fourth colour to the deck, that I actually intend to use to cast spells always has been a risky maneuver and is one that I'm wary of using in the future.
Spike Weaver: It's been a long time since I last considered Spike Weaver, but I think that it's time I tested with it again. The last time I tried it was before green became the deck's dominant colour. At that time, the double-green in his mana cost scared me away. However, I would like to test options that would allow me to get out of a lock in which I must recur my Spore Frog every turn to prevent creature damage, thereby preventing me from recurring something else that might help me to regain control of the board.
Symbiotic Elf: I might; I might not. That spot is really just filler until I find some other utility function that some creature could fill. Hunting Moa does have better synergy with Triskelion and Spike Weaver, though. In fact, since I'm going to be testing with Spike Weaver (and I expect to be pleased with the results), that might just be the deciding factor in which creature to use here.
Oath of Scholars: To be truthful, I seldom have a small hand. Once an Oversold Cemetery comes online, I'm likely to recur something every turn, which can tie up my mana, preventing me from casting something new. In the midgame, I don't usually drop below four cards and in the late game I'm often discarding things that I called up with the Cemetery, but didn't have the mana to cast. Also, as you observed, the Raven Familars are creatures. They're useful fodder for any of my sacrifice outlets, since I never want the creature to be alive by my next upkeep. If I have nothing in particular to do, I can always recur a Familiar and dig a little bit deeper into the deck. It's also nice to have flying blockers, on occasion.
Oath of Ghouls: I've addressed this in the past. I kill a lot of stuff with this deck. Some of it's with the Faceless Butcher, but some is in combat and some's with the Triskelion. In the mid- and lategames, just when I want to be recurring stuff the most, Oath of Ghouls peters out on me.
Yavimaya Elder: It is not worth restructuring the mana base to include it. Some of this deck's strongest plays involve a first turn Veteran Explorer. (Turn 1: Veteran Explorer, Turn 2: Skullclamp) I operate on the principle that I don't mind my opponent getting additional land, since in nine games out of ten, I will be able to make much better use of that mana than my opponent. I recently played in a game in which I chained multiple Veteran Explorers until I had twelve lands on the table. My opponent had a similar number and was quickly to the point where he could use no more than five each turn. On the other hand, I was regularly able to use ten or more, each turn. Needless to say, victory was shortly mine. The power of getting the lands directly into play cannot be overstated.
Krosan Tusker: This suffers from the same drawbacks as Yavimaya Elder. Veteran Explorer is simply better at getting the lands where I need them to be. Although he is a strong creature, in that regard he suffers the same drawback as Juggernaut: that being that I don't need an additional fat body. Carrion Feeder and Triskelion are plenty mighty.
Wall of Roots: Once again, just not as good as Veteran Explorer. It generates only one colour of mana, doesn't generate it very quickly, can't attack in a pinch, and doesn't die when Skullclamped.
Oath of Druids: Powerful or not, it does not have desirable synergy with my deck. In the mid- and lategames, I am very likely to have many creatures on the table, with my opponents having few. Giving my opponents additional means of getting creatures into play at that point is not beneficial. In the early game, this may be helpful, but even then, I'm quickly setting the stage to establish board dominance. Although this would be a powerful tool if I felt I had difficulty getting ahead in the creature count, early in the game, I doubt it would be as grotesquely powerful as you describe.
Survival of the Fittest: (preemptive strike) I've tested with it before and in some cases it was exceptionally strong and in others mediocre (early in the game, I'd rather have Worldly Tutor). At any rate, when it was good, it was so good that none of my friends wanted to play against this deck anymore, which isn't any fun at all.
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Did you know that Red is the color or art and music and passion? Combine that with Green, the color of nature, spiritualism, and community and you get a hippie commune of drum circles, dreamcatchers, and recreational drug use. Let's see that win a Pro Tour.
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Dream_Merchant
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« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2004, 10:12:50 am » |
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Re: Survival LOL true indeed, banned in extended, must be careful in casual happened to me too many times and sometimes i was the one leaving i tend to stay away from that thing unless its there to fuel some really some funky deck aka Return of the Vampires, Rise of the Dragons
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dandan
More Vintage than Adept
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More Vintage than Adept
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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2004, 04:01:26 am » |
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I suggested Dreams of the Dead because the original deck used Blue but with few good reasons. Dreams is a very strong Blue reanimator, I hope I don't need to point out that the threat of instant speed creatures is often enough and if you get the sort of mana you claim (which seems reasonable) then you have enough for several alpha-strikes with the cream of your graveyard. I mentioned the bad synergy with the Cemetery and readily acknowledge that the card might not be right for this particular deck but IMHO Dreams is one of the most-underrated cards in casual Magic. Think of it as running a (weak) YawgWin in addition to the Gaea's Blessings (Dreams and Cemetery).
Krovikan Horror is good for the reason you mentioned but should go into the deck for the one you didn't, he comes back from the graveyard on his own. The weakness in your deck is when you don't have a Cemetery out and the Horror helps there. He also makes Survival much stronger.
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Playing bad cards since 1995
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