[Single Card Discussion] Tsabo's Web

[Hyperion]

Tsabo's Web

Artifact
When Tsabo's Web comes into play, draw a card.
Lands with an activated ability that doesn't produce mana don't untap during their controllers' untap steps.

With Gay/R and other variants seeing as much play as they do, I think this card should see a likewise spike in play. One of Fish’s strengths is that many of its lands serve multiple purposes, which consequently have activated abilities that get shut down by the Web:

*Mishra’s Factory and Faerie Conclave
*Wasteland, Strip Mine if they’re tapped as Web resolves
*Library of Alexandria
*and post-board, Maze of Ith, should the Fish player bring it in.

Counting the striplands, that’s ~50% (!!) of the typical Fish mana base that’s affected by Tsabo’s Web…and even not counting those, about a third. Null Rod has a similar effect on many decks’ mana bases. Fish uses Null Rod to a devastating effect against many decks, why not return the favor?

After about a dozen games’ testing I am a believer in this card—almost every time it resolved, I won. Given how easy it is to cast, that it’s never dead because it cantrips, and the potential for massive card advantage—this appears to be a severaly underplayed card in the current metagame. Virtually any non-combo deck that needs a boost against Fish  could look into dedicating a couple SB spaces for Tsabo’s Web—Hulk, Slaver, GAT,  4cControl, Workshop aggro decks…I don’t have experience with *all* of these decks but it seems as though most if not all could potentially benefit from running it.

[Justinsane]

I have played gay/r against tsabos web and i would say it is a good SB plan for tog.  I have won with tsabos web in play but it is difficult.  The thing is it takes up 2 or 3 spots in the tog Sb.  If i know the tog player is bringing in tsabos web i can bring in vandal or R&R.  It doesnt just win the game, but i think it is good.

[urza_insane]

This card certainly has potential, not just against fish either! It hits Bazaar (I love killing $120 cards with $2 cards   ). The only restraint is that it is very metagame dependant, but if you see lots of fish or bazaar's there would be no reason I wouldn't side at least 3. Cantrips are always fun! I wonder how much this will be seen at the SCG tourny after PTW's finish? Only time will tell.

[Matt]

Interestingly, Web will also shut off fetchlands if they manage to become tapped somehow.

[Magi]

Root Maze in itself is a beating against fetchies. Web is just overkill.

[rozetta]

Tsabo's Web in conjunction with Sundering Titan is akin to ass-raping the Fish player with their own rolled-up Null Rods. With this colourful thought in mind, I'd think it'd be a good call for decks like NeoStax and 7/10 Split, too, sideboard space permitting. Expect to see this card rise in use for everyone who doesn't enjoy being beaten by decks with Standstills.

[Hyperion]

rozetta, your assertions are well founded - Sundering Titan.dec was exactly the deck I was testing it with last night ! . Yes, in conjunction with Titan, Web is devastating. I was finding that the pre-board matchup was sometimes difficult because of Null Rod and Strip effects so was looking for a card to hedge the matchup in my favor after boarding. I tried bringing in combinations of several cards and Tsabo's Web was by far the most effective. It didn't occur to me until after I started playing post-SB games that one of it's major strengths (in this matchup) was that it handled Maze of Ith nicely.

The one thing to be wary of when playing it in Workshop decks is that it's sometimes at odds with playing Chalice at X = 2, which is a common number to set it at in the Fish matchup...but it's effect is so powerful that I think it's worth it. Oftentimes, if I led with Chalice it would get Forced anyway.

[MisterShark]

With 4cControl I think I prefer Crucible of Worlds over Tsabo's Web:

 - It handles the aforementioned manlands, etc , with Wasteland/          
   Stripmine synergy.
 - Provides deck thinning/shuffling with fetchies.

Yeah, it costs one more mana and doesn't cantrip, but the draw-quality enhancement that it provides via repetitive fetchie deck-thinning outweighs the single cantrip.

But please don't allow my mere mention of Crucible to steer this thread off-course; let's stay focused on the Web.  I only mean to suggest that we might disqualify 4cControl as a  viable Tsabo's Web recipient.

[Stupid_Newb]

Landstill, Fish, Dragon, Oshawa Stompy. Four popular decks that the Web really hurts. I can definately see uses for it in the sideboard of many decks.

[everythingitouchdies]

The web only messes dragon if dragon is digging for a combo piece. It doesnt stop the combo as the bazaar comes back in untapped, but the bazaar deck that it stumps is r/g madness. I have had it played against me in both of those match ups, in Dragon I didnt care and in madness I was frantically hoping to draw a naturalize that could have been better spent somewhere else were it not for that obnoxious little web.

I have been a fan of tsabo's web for a while, its nice to welder in and out for some card drawing as well.

[The Atog Lord]

This card seems like it would really hurt a deck like Landstill. That deck's plan is often to drop a Standstill with no threats in play, and then start attacking with lands. Dropping a turn two Web would shut down that plan.

[WildWillieWonderboy]

Landstill just pops the disk, Dragon as previously mentioned isn't bothered by it that much and Oshawa can use survival and mongrel. The Web is definately great against Fish, but so are blood moon and back to basics and they're also good against other decks. Of course, certain decks can't run these cards against fish because they are just as heavy or heavier in non-basics and that's where this card would be good.

In general, I disagree with the use of hate.

[theorigamist]

This card seems like it would really hurt a deck like Landstill. That deck's plan is often to drop a Standstill with no threats in play, and then start attacking with lands. Dropping a turn two Web would shut down that plan.

This wouldn't really work.  If you drop Web before they drop Standstill, they'll wait until they find Disk and they'll kill the Web.  If you drop Web after they drop Standstill, they'll find Disk faster.  If the Landstill player drops Standstill with Web on the table, then they just made a huge play error.

Dragon as previously mentioned isn't bothered by it that much and Oshawa can use survival and mongrel.

If Dragon is going off, not much bothers them.  But if you're looking for a way to prevent or slow them going off, then Web is still a decent option, especially for a Stax/prison deck that's going to get a better lock a couple turns down the road.

[BreathWeapon]

I have to concur that Blood Moon is simply a better option vs Fish in 7/10, because it works against all Control Decks. As far as Tog goes, Tsabo's Web would be competing for other hate such as Ground Seals, Purges or Shamans. Web is also severely overrated against Bazaar of Baghdad. Even Crucible of Worlds seems like a better option than the Web for Tog vs Fish. The card just seems to be overly specific towards 1 match up.

[Stupid_Newb]

I just did a little testing with the Web. Against Dragon, I was wrong. It really doesn't do too much. Against Landstill, if you're able to drop one early enough and make them wait for a Disc, your opponent will be in trouble. Especially if you have a way to shut down the Disc (Null Rod, Oxidize, Stifle). The last matchup I did a little testing with was Fish. As others have already said, it seriously screws up Fish's manabase. It's very hard to lose if you're able to drop and protect a Web against Fish.

Bottom Line: If I were able to make it to the SCG P9 Tournament this weekend, you could bet on me bringing 4 x Tsabo's Web in my sideboard.

[Hyperion]

Before I respond to other people, I should mention that I purposefully left Bazaar out of my opening post as a reason to consider siding Tsabo's Web. I meant this thread to be a discussion about siding it for Fish only...and perhaps Landstill too, but the former appears to be seeing much more play than the latter at the moment.

With 4cControl I think I prefer Crucible of Worlds over Tsabo's Web.

You may be right about its inclusion being questionable in Keeper, which already has Strip effects - Crucible or no. I agree that it probably isn't as useful there as in other decks.

The Web is definately great against Fish, but so are blood moon and back to basics and they're also good against other decks. Of course, certain decks can't run these cards against fish because they are just as heavy or heavier in non-basics and that's where this card would be good.

I want to reiterate the point I made in my opening post about this being a potential SB candidate in Hulk, GAT, and Keeper - all of which can't really run Blood Moon or Back to Basics without shooting themselves in the foot.

Also, regarding its use against Landstill - yes, it can be Disked away. But if they are using manlands to build up their mana base in the opening turns then Web might prevent them from ever reaching the 4-mana flashpoint in time for it to matter. And even then, it's alread replaced itself! That's what's so great about this card!

have to concur that Blood Moon is simply a better option vs Fish in 7/10, because it works against all Control Decks. As far as Tog goes, Tsabo's Web would be competing for other hate such as Ground Seals, Purges or Shamans. Web is also severely overrated against Bazaar of Baghdad. Even Crucible of Worlds seems like a better option than the Web for Tog vs Fish. The card just seems to be overly specific towards 1 match up.

In my experience with Sundering Titan.dec, ramping up to three non-Workshop mana is sometimes difficult to achieve even without my mana base under constant attack. It already puts a lot of stress on the mana base to support TFK, draw7's, and Tinker, because you either need to resolve Gilded Lotus or hope your Moxen/multilands stay in play.  In my testing against Fish I have found this weakness even more apparent because now Null Rod is a factor and you can't even be certain your multilands will stay in play.

I don't think Tsabo's Web and Blood Moon have to be mutually exclusive in the 7/10 sideboard in general. But for castability issues alone, I think Tsabo's Web should get the nod against Fish. Personally, I don't think Blood Moon is that great in 7/10 anyway because there are no basics, so many critical blue spells, and ramping up to 6-8 mana is much harder than 4 (as in TNT)...meaning that if you don't have Gilded Lotus you're shooting yourself in the foot too much for it to be worth it.

Yes, it is a card very narrow in focus - but Fish is such a prevalent archetype in many metagames that devoting a couple slots in the sideboard to it seems reasonable to me if the deck you're playing needs a boost in this matchup.

[Godot]

Have you tested any of the other possible anti-fish SB cards?  How much does Tsabos Web help the matchup compared to something like Caltrops?  Does the comparative ease of getting a Web into play outweigh the more powerful effect of a Caltrops?

[BreathWeapon]

Are you giving your 7/10 vs Fish perspective from the FoW/Brainstorm perspective or the Trinisphere +2 Tombs/+1 Lotus Petal angle? I'm playing B, so our perspectives of the Fish match up may be very different. I think BM is stronger in 7/10 than you give it credit for, but I agree that Web isn't necessarily competing for the same space as Moon. I also think that Web could conflict with Chalice@2, but threat density vs Fish is probably more important than the lack of synergy between the 2 cards.

Back to the Control Decks,

4cc seems to be having success with 2xCrucible in the SB vs Fish, and I'm disinclined to replace them with Web on account of that.

I could see the card in GAT, because its manabase has a hell of a time vs Fish. It may very well be THE deck that needs to overkill the Fish match up from the SB.

As far as HULK goes, I think it depends on which match up is more Common and Desperate; Fish, Dragon, Slavery, Draw7 and Belcher. Most HULK SBs, that I've seen, use 3 Open slots to hate on the above decks. These slots being; Purges, Seals and Shamans. The cool thing about the above 3 cards is, that they affect multiple match ups fairly well. Shamans double up vs Combo and Shops. Seals/Purges cover Dragons, Shops and Belcher to an extent. So, Web seems like the weakest choice of the 3, only affecting Fish. Thus, the presence of Web would demand an extremely high number of Fish decks to justify its place in the SB. The question then becomes, do you see more Fish in the critical rounds of the tournament than Dragon/Slavery/Belcher/Draw 7 combined?

[PucktheCat]

I can say from experiance that Web is better than Caltrops against Fish.  The typical Fish list has more creatures that are shut down by Caltrops, but most of them have potent abilities that don't require attacking anyway (Spiketail, Shaman, even Cloud cycles).  The creatures that are stopped by Caltrops aren't the deck's big beaters anyway.

Web stops the largest creatures in the deck (Mishra's Factory) and takes out a good chunk of their mana base while doing so.  It is also cheaper and cantrips.

Leo

[rozetta]

Tsabo's Web was actually used a few years ago in Keeper sideboards for fish-heavy metagames (back when fish was not yet that popular). I seem to remember Zherbus and a few others mentioning it. I think the fact that it's a cheap artifact cantrip is a huge motivating factor in using it, especially if your deck has trouble with fish (which a good deal of decks do).

I have to agree with the statement that hate cards suck. However, the deck being hated against is one of those which actually runs hate cards main, so I think it's perfectly legitimate to return the favour in this case (i.e. be a complete bastard).

[TrixR4Kidz]

Tsabo's web is decent sideboard idea, I mean it does cantrip as it comes into play which is really good, It hoses out fish, and landstill (the obsoleteness of landstill) and it stops bazaars, but even dragon has ways around that, I think it's good, but not good enough to take up one of those valuable sideboard spots that are just growing more and more valuable.  If your gonna side against fish, you might as well just side a pleaguespitter or caltraps or even more fire/ices, The web I think is more of a "cool" card, then a "OMG" card....

[Methuselahn]

Since this seems more like a gay/r bashing thread than a pro-web thread, I'll point out the fact that the Spanish Gencon tournies posted by Gabe have 25 crucibles in them total.  Also note zero fishy decks.  I'm not sure if these decks are just not popular or what, but workshop->crucible is so good vs the mana denial strategies of fish.  Coupled with the fact that Crucible isn't just a hate card in shop decks with strips.  Of course you cant deny the other elements that work against gay/r such as their own strips and spheres, etc.  

Would you need to run Tsabo's Web in your own deck if you see Crucibles in your meta?

[Hyperion]

Are you giving your 7/10 vs Fish perspective from the FoW/Brainstorm perspective or the Trinisphere +2 Tombs/+1 Lotus Petal angle? I'm playing B, so our perspectives of the Fish match up may be very different.

If it's relevant to the issue of Tsabo's Web (I'm not sure how it is yet but I'll wait for you to respond), I was testing wtih MD Trinispheres but not Forces.

The question then becomes, do you see more Fish in the critical rounds of the tournament than Dragon/Slavery/Belcher/Draw 7 combined?

That depends on the metagame in question, which I think is what you were getting at. That's a weak response on my part and I know it but I can't do any better except to say that you can almost *always* bet on seeing Fish at a tournament (and perhaps even play multiple Fish players during the course of a tournament) whereas the presence of the others is less certain.

It would be presumptious to say that Tsabo's Web should always be in the Hulk player's SB; my intention with this discussion was to heighten peoples' awareness of the card so that they might give it due consideration. In decks with more flexibility in their SBs or decks that really do need a big boost against Fish, the answer may be more direct.

Tsabo's web is decent sideboard idea, I mean it does cantrip as it comes into play which is really good, It hoses out fish, and landstill (the obsoleteness of landstill) and it stops bazaars, but even dragon has ways around that, I think it's good, but not good enough to take up one of those valuable sideboard spots that are just growing more and more valuable. If your gonna side against fish, you might as well just side a pleaguespitter or caltraps or even more fire/ices, The web I think is more of a "cool" card, then a "OMG" card....

Those cards that you suggest in place of Web don't address one of the other important reasons for bringing in Tsabo's Web: if Maze of Ith is a factor. Yeah, you can tap it down once with Fire/Ice or turn Plaguespitter into a 20-turn clock I suppose...

The point I've been trying to hammer home is that Tsabo's Web is the most efficient countermeasure to the Fish deck, even if it doesn't shut down one aspect of the deck as well as other cards. It may not be better creature removal spell than Plague Spitter or Fire/Ice at times, and isn't a better mana hoser than Blood or Back to Basics under many circumstances. But with Tsabo's Web you get some of both of those against Fish for a low casting cost and immediate return on your investment. If that isn't an "OMG" card I don't know what it is.

[fuego527]

Would you need to run Tsabo's Web in your own deck if you see Crucibles in your meta?

Is your point here that if your meta includes CoW that other people (the ones with the Crucibles) will defeat fish decks for you, and you, therefore, will not encounter such decks?

If I did interpret your question correctly, then I pose this question to you.

Would you need to run Oxidize in your own deck if you see Null Rods in your meta?

[Methuselahn]

Would you need to run Oxidize in your own deck if you see Null Rods in your meta?

While I see your point here, I think I'll just say that it is all in figuring out your meta.  Crucible of Worlds is more of a strategy in itself (thus meta defining), while Null Rod is hate.  My example of the Barcelona meta indicates alot of crucibles and no fish decks, I wanted to point this out and try and extrapolate a trend that may or may not appear in various metas.

I'll also point out that Tsabo's Web is much more narrow in function than Oxidize.

[fuego527]

Ah, I get what you were saying.
I did not understand that there was correlation between your statements and that question.  I definately agree that if your meta is heavy in a deck/decks which runs strategies (CoW) that are antithetical to another deck (fish) AND that fact is well-known to a high percentage of the players (meaning that these players would be less inclined to play said deck) that running narrow hate cards (Tsabo's Web) in your SB against those decks would be a poor call.