white in fish?

[M.Solymossy]

Hey everyone.  Today my question is, does White have it's place in a workshop heavy metagame (milwaukee)?

The decklist i started playing is straight from the budget forum

GayR

Fishies
4x Cloud of Faeries
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Spiketail Hatchling
3x Voidmage Prodigy

Draw
4x Strandstill
4x Curiosity

Countermagic
4x Force of Will
3x Misdirection
3x Stifle

Utility
4x Fire/ice

Mana
4x Polluted Delta
4x Volcanic Island
4x Island
3x Faerie Conclave
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
1x Strip mine

personally though, i didn't like some of the card choices though after playtesting versus 3 different shop based welder decks and 2 drain based as well as tog, fcg, belcher, and dragon:

2x Grim Lavamancer
i personally thought that drawing more than one of these guys was a complete waste, because i normally would empty my graveyard too fast to really get a great deal of use out of him, making him just another small creature for 1 mana.  

4x Spiketail Hatchling
some people will think i am VERY extremely lacking in the common sence department for not liking the hatchling, but in playtesting it just didn't fit into my flavor.  More often than not, they would have extra mana available to pay it by second turn, and often by first.  
 
3x Voidmage Prodigy
i didn't playtest much with these guys, they are powerful, and by the time i get to milwaukee i may include 2 of these guys, but for now i didn't see much purpose with the added control that white gives me.

4x Fire/ice  
NO NULL RODS?   um.... this is getting exchanged in part for rods.
 
1x Faerie Conclave
i few 3 as too many conclaves, simply in part as they come into play tapped, and with the added white, i normally see myself beating people with  my factories before my conclaves, but 2 go in because they have flying.


So after modifying A LOT i have come up with this:


the patriot  

creatures  14
4x Cloud of Faeries
2x Grim Lavamancer
4x flying men  
2x Exalted Angel
2x gorilla shaman

Draw  8
4x Strandstill
4x Curiosity

Countermagic  12
4x Force of Will
2x Misdirection
2x Stifle
4x counterspell

Utility  6
3x null rod  
3x swords to plowshares

Mana
4x flooded strand  
4x tundra
3x volcanic island
2x Faerie Conclave
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
1x Strip mine
1 lotus petal


my reasonings came down to:

2x Exalted Angel
       In playtesting once this hit the field most decks just fell under it's awesomeness.  it's big and normally is morphed down 3rd turn followed by a standstill followed by unmorphing it for a BIG beast.

 2x gorilla shaman
       the tournament i'm planning to attend is 10 proxy.  I expect to see a LOT of moxen for this little guy to eat up

4x counterspell
       I own 4 7th edition foil counterspells, so i figured i'd put them to use.  no decks currently run counters, but i see them as another decent control spell.

3x null rod  
         same as gorilla shaman

3x swords to plowshares
         eat's togs, dragons, dryads, welders, 7/10s, juggernaughts, su-chi's, it canabalizes other fish, and sometimes can successfully eat a goblin in FCGs if they're not overkilling.



White also gives way to a much wider variety of sideboard.  the ONLY card i'm thinking that in playtesting seams to totally DICK over most type 1 decks is:

Funeral Pyre
---for one mana, at instant speed, you can remove anything out of your graveyard for a 1/1 flyer OR you can target something in their graveyard and they get it.  would you rather have that 7/10 or a 1/1?  how about them willing into an ancestral or a time walk?   what about dragon combo?   i have already funeral pyred the laquates out in responce to them casting animate before the dragon stack, forcing them to go infinity, drawing the game.

aura of silence

swords to plowshares

I personally think that playing white gives me the advantage over most people because they don't know what to expect from white. In playing against straight fish, i was able to compete with them 50/50 in games where exalted didn't hit the field and 90/10 in games when exalted did hit...   it's just too powerful to be ignored.


what are your thoughts?  will this slow me down or give me the edge?  would you guys who are VERY knowledgable in this format change any more of the choices?

[PucktheCat]

Here are my thoughts on this.

[Diakonov]

If I was going to add white, I would agree with Puck's logic.  Angel is definitely not something that fits in Fish, especially with the double white morph-up cost.

Personally, I think that adding any third color is wholly unnecessary.  The great thing about Fish is its consistency, which is being slightly disturbed by the addition of a third color.  If you are having trouble with artifacts or creatures, red should have a plethora of answers already (i.e. Viashino Heretic, R&R, Lightning Bolt, Fire/Ice, Lavamancer, Maze of Ith, etc.)

Sure, it might be tough to get rid of large non-artifact creatures, but every deck has its weaknesses.  You don't want to hurt your good matchups by spreading the deck strategy thin.

Also, I strongly recommend Daze.  It's incredible in this deck.

[PucktheCat]

You don't want to hurt your good matchups by spreading the deck strategy thin.

I see this statement made daily with regard to this deck and I just don't understand it.

Imagine the following changes to PTW’s list:

-2 Island
-1 Misdirection
-1 Stifle
+2 Tundra
+2 Swords to Plowshares

Here are the top few decks in the format:

Hulk
7-10
Gay/r
4cC
Draw 7

Against ALL of those except Draw 7 I would say Swords is better than Misdirection/Stifle.  Even control, which typically doesn't care about Swords, needs to worry about them against this deck because they are relying on fast creatures to stop the beatdown and win quickly.  Swords is a clear improvement over the other disruption options against almost every deck in the format.  The fact that it wrecks aggro is just a side benefit.

Add to this the fact that Swords clears up some room in the sideboard for more cards against good decks and I just don't see any support for your statement that the white splash hurts your good matchups.

If the best decks were running Blood Moon I could see how a white splash might hurt you against them, but the fact is they aren't.

Now this doesn’t take into account Meddling Mage vs. Voidmage, but if Swords is good enough to run white then I think the Meddling Mage vs. Voidmage debate is fairly irrelevant – they are pretty much interchangeable.

Leo

[M.Solymossy]

First off, thank you to the mods for moving this to the correct forum, except the fact that I don't like to be considered a Newbie.


Yeah I can see the issues with angel, but I really happen to like her in ANY deck.  It's the lifegain that totally f-'s people's plans.

Swords is AMAZING in this deck.  I might even mainboard 3 funeral pyre to get rid of those pesky mindslavers with the welder and get rid of those dragons/laquates', even some of the things that make HULK insanely broken  (yawgmoth's will into a second recall).   Also, i can remove my own stuff to add an extra beat.


What are some other cards that I can utilize?


secondly, would I rather AUTO-Counter ONE thing with Meddling mage,  or pay 2 and lose a creature to counter a thing of my choice with a voidmage?

the thing is, against combo, you can Mage things like Food Chain or against tog you can say Tog and then just Swords their dryad.     If you mage one of your opponent's bombs, they can't stifle it.  they can kill it though, a fire/ice, hell even a SHOCK if you play a complete newb.
at the same, they CAN stifle the voidmage, or kill it just as easily.

with voidmage you need UU available, and that's not something i like to do when i want to get in that extra 2 with a conclave. at the same, they CAN'T counter the voidmages ability with FOW or drain's or ect.  

question number 2:   the tournament is 10 proxy. should I proxy in a Library of alex (is it useful in fish?) and some on-color moxen?  I think just Null-rod without moxen, because if i null then any moxen will be a dead draw.  obvious choices are Walk and Ancestral, what about twister?
maybe sideboard moat against any non-fish aggro?

[PucktheCat]

The powered version of my deck would be:

-1 Meddling Mage
-1 Daze
-2 Island
+1 Ancestral Recall
+1 Time Walk
+1 Library of Alexandria
+1 Mox Sapphire

The Mox is good power for this deck.  When you don't draw or need to cast Null Rod it is excellent accleration.  Against many decks land, Mox, Null Rod is an excellent play, so don't worry too much about the interaction with Null Rod.  

Meddling Mage vs Voidmage isn't a clean cut issue in my opinion.  I think Mage is a bit better if you are good with him, but it isn't a big difference.

Leo

[Arvid]

The main reason to play white in Fish is, in my opinion, Meddling Mage. He's not technically a fish but he fits fine with the denial route, banning cards in combination with Stifle/Wasteland/Null Rod and countermagic.

Also, I think you should replace them vanilla Counterspells with Dazes.

[MerlinOfFincayra]

First off, drop 4x flying man for 4x spiketail hatchling. The thing about hatchling is that it never seems to be working because they always seem to have the extra mana, but you never see where it slows them down because they'd have to be retarded to play into a definate counter.

I'd have to agree with the others about exalted angel. It's not the kind of card you want in fish. Pull those out. In their place, you might try another grim lavamancer and gorilla shaman.

Normal counterspells in a fish deck? Drop all 4 of them. add 3 dazes. And add a stifle or misdirection or something. Your deck needs some tuning, but it's not a bad idea.

[Moxlotus]

So how are you going to keep 2 blue open for counterspell with manlands in the deck?

[M.Solymossy]

the same way i'd keep 2 blue open for voidmage

actually, im not exactly sure other than i normally don't even play the conclaves.  i might drop the 2 conclaves for 2 basic islands, and maybe even 1 of the factories...


im not a fan of daze, but i will playtest with it within the next two weeks.  maybe i will like it's synergy.

i'm thinking maybe 2 voidmage and 3 meddling mage, also...