Pimping FOW :)

[Nameless]

utter chaos

Yeah, that's the word I was looking for

I think we're reaching a concensus now. We both agree that there are rules concerning this,  and that the cards need to be 'judged', and the the proper person to do so is the judge. And I concede your point that judges cannot take unjustified action without repercussion.

The only (slight) differences of opinion we have appear to be:
- what a 'fair' amount of alteration would constitute, or in other words: what WE would allow if we were the judge (you: high tolerance vs. me: low tolerance)
- what action we would be willing to take (i.e. appealing/reporting the decision) if the judge rules negatively on our cards (you: action vs. me: no action)
- what we expect the outcome of this appeal would be (you: punishment by the DCI vs. me: no punishment by the DCI).

Since these differing viewpoints due to their nature (interpretation) really cannot be swayed by any amount of argumentation, and we seem to have gotten to the bottom of our differences, I suggest we drop the subject

Agreed and well spoken.  My view is based on what is fair for the tournament players, and based on the fact that the DCI, in general, wants players to feel they can compete in a fair environment and will take steps when needed to do so.

...

While a Judge's ruling may never be reversed after a tournament, and this is for good reason because it could cause utter chaos, they are still liable for misrepresentation of the spirit of the rules, and just generally doing a poor job.

Sure, but you sound like George W Bush now. Please explain me what you think the weapons of MD are?

I can demonstrate this as two local shops and another one several hours away practiced exactly this sort of behavior, among thier TOs and Judges.  The result?  Lifetime bans in two of the cases for all TOs and Judges involved.

I'm judging now for 8 years. I have heard all sorts of bullshit. This is another addition. Judges nor TO's ever get banned for disallowing cards. They were probably banned for a whole bunch of screw ups, one of them might have been disallowing foreign or altered cards.

Learn this lesson quickly:  ...

Seriously, George W is still hiring people for his campaign...

Jaap

Now as for this...

First off, I'll let you stop right there and pretend you didn't start trying to sling personal insults.  This is not a habbit you want to get into with me, or anyone for that matter.  I will say no more on this.

Second, you aren't as well informed as you think then.  While I may have exagurated the time frame for the banning, it is in fact quite true.  However, in defense of my statement, a ban of 6, 8, or more years may as well be a lifetime banning.  Additionally, to further clarify this:  The act itself wasn't a result of somebody disallowing a card, but rather in regards to DQ people for certain reasons well beyond the realm of a game, and where such actions were obviously the result of personal feelings and opinions, which had nothing to do with the tournament.  OK, so I did apply this example towards what I was saying, and in doing so I suppose that would constitute a 'lie' and for that I apologize the community.

The point though is that the DCI does care about TOs and Judges trying to be 'tournament tyrants' and they will take action.

[Bram]

First off, I'll let you stop right there and pretend you didn't start trying to sling personal insults.

C'mon....it was obviously a joke (much like Bush jr. himself .

Second, you aren't as well informed as you think then.

Jaapmans is a level four judge. I pretty much trust him on everything he sais regardiong DCI policy.

Additionally, to further clarify this: The act itself wasn't a result of somebody disallowing a card, but rather in regards to DQ people for certain reasons well beyond the realm of a game, and where such actions were obviously the result of personal feelings and opinions, which had nothing to do with the tournament.

That's exactly what Jaap said. On behalf of the community, I accept your apology It seems that, again just like in real life, none of us were really wrong or really right and it's all just a matter of opinion. Let's all quit while were ahead, shalle we?

[Magi]

no way, this must be settled.

*starts passing out spoons*

now EVERYONE FIGHT!!!

[virtual]

Cards used in a tournament may not have writing on their faces other than signatures or artistic modifications. Modifications may not obscure the artwork so as to make the card unrecognizable. If modifications to a card are deemed by the head judge to constitute outside notes or unsporting contact, the owner of the deck are subject to the appropriate provisions of the DCI Penalty Guidelines.

So, assuming the ink doesn't make the card marked by weight/etc. when in a sleeve, can we come up with a consensus on what the boundaries are for modifications?  Must more than 50% of the art must be recognizable? Is there a guideline similar to the rule on television that you can't show more than 3/4 of an ass.  

Furthermore, with alterations of this fashion, would it be better to have the text box completely altered, with none or very little of the picture affected.  That seems to be counter intuitive, but it seems to go well with the rules.  However, having your text box painted over with spawn on it and leaving the art the same doesn't seem quite as pimp as altering the art.  Is there any happy-medium that we can all come to for how to pimpify a card, but make everyone happy.  Or is the answer just:  Ask the TO, and have replacements if he doesn't like them.

-Virtual

[Pyromaniac]

The rules say that the card has to be recognizable from it's art. So you can modify it till it can't be reconized anymore.

There's no fixed percentage for that afaik, and I doubt there'll be one. Therefore a rule that covers it all can't be made either

[Kerz]

It has to be recognisable from card art only? So... you could color in the entire card exept the art- and it'd be legal?

[TracerBullet]

I'm very strongly of the belief that unless a player complains, there is no real reason for a HJ to disallow modified cards.  If somebody for some reason thought that my FoW was somehow distracting them, I'd change it out for the player, but I can tell you right now I've never had that happen and I've been playing Forces like these for over a year.  The truth of the matter is it's just not that big a deal, and anybody who makes it one is doing so without cause.

[jpmeyer]

To be fair, I couldn't tell what all of those cards were by looking at them.  It also does not help when you have non-English cards getting modified.

[Ric_Flair]

I am pretty sure that the DCI does not make rulings based on poll data, so what is the actual rule in the actual rulebook regarding this issue.  

As an aside, if I were making the rules I would say that a card would be legal if upon inspection an opponent can decipher what it is from 1) the art; 2) the name of the card; or 3) any other means so long as there is no dispute between the players as to what the card is.  

Of course marked cards (ie cards noticeable in a deck) would not be allowed.  

I think that real import is this: if me and my opponent know what the card is and it is not marked or an illegal copy (proxy, CE) then that is all that matters.

Still I am dying to know what the real rule is.

[Toad]

Still I am dying to know what the real rule is.

Head Judge decides. There is no other rule related with altered cards.

[CrazyCarl]

It also kind of depends on the environment in which the altered cards are being played in.  In a local tournament or a 5 proxy event they really shouldn't be a huge problem.  Now if it's in an event where the prize is a Lotus+ I -might- have a problem depending on how altered the card is(from a player's prospective).  The fact remains that while they may look cool, they are hard to recognize from just a glance, such as when you're looking at your opponent's graveyard from across the table.

Yes I know you can pick it up and by looking at it a bit longer you'll see what it is, but when I'm playing in a higher level event I don't want to waste the mental energy, regardless of how little it may take, to identify the cards.  So I might bring up the issue in such an event.  It sort of reminds me of shitty proxies in how you really have to look at them to have any clue what they are.

In a PTQ I highly doubt these kind of altered cards would fly.  The HJ could allow them yes, but I don't think most would.

[Nameless]

It also kind of depends on the environment in which the altered cards are being played in.  In a local tournament or a 5 proxy event they really shouldn't be a huge problem.  Now if it's in an event where the prize is a Lotus+ I -might- have a problem depending on how altered the card is(from a player's prospective).  The fact remains that while they may look cool, they are hard to recognize from just a glance, such as when you're looking at your opponent's graveyard from across the table.

Yes I know you can pick it up and by looking at it a bit longer you'll see what it is, but when I'm playing in a higher level event I don't want to waste the mental energy, regardless of how little it may take, to identify the cards.  So I might bring up the issue in such an event.  It sort of reminds me of shitty proxies in how you really have to look at them to have any clue what they are.

In a PTQ I highly doubt these kind of altered cards would fly.  The HJ could allow them yes, but I don't think most would.

I'd agree with this, in a sactioned event.  On the other hand, in any event using proxies it would take huge big brass balls to disallow any card just because it's altered.  If a guy I'm playing with can proxy a Workshop and I don't see why I can't have Spawn wreaking havok with my Force of Wills.

[Bram]

Since proxy events are unsanctioned by default, it's COMPLETELY up to the HJ what he wants to allow or not. Heck, he could even allow 'Mechs to be played alongside creatures.

[Toad]

"I blow your Psychatog with my Optimus Prime"

[Bram]

On a completely off-topic note: I actually did something similar once. I played with my Battletech deck against a casual Magic deck. My objective was to deck my opponent (BT victory condition) whereas I was 'given' 20 life which he was to reduce. I thought of this after seeing a Battletech promotional poster by WotC where an angel, some goblins and a necromancer were cowering behind some rock with an enormous Mad Cat menacing towards them with its autocannons primed and ready to fire. It looked so savage that I needed to try that. It actually worked, too, with some ad-hoc tweaking of the rules. I remember doing a missile roll targeting his Ghazban Ogre or something. It's so savage to fire missiles at dumb old magic creatures

[Magi]

On a completely off-topic note: I actually did something similar once. I played with my Battletech deck against a casual Magic deck. My objective was to deck my opponent (BT victory condition) whereas I was 'given' 20 life which he was to reduce. I thought of this after seeing a Battletech promotional poster by WotC where an angel, some goblins and a necromancer were cowering behind some rock with an enormous Mad Cat menacing towards them with its autocannons primed and ready to fire. It looked so savage that I needed to try that. It actually worked, too, with some ad-hoc tweaking of the rules. I remember doing a missile roll targeting his Ghazban Ogre or something. It's so savage to fire missiles at dumb old magic creatures

KandyKid and my friend Tyler used to do this all the time. Tyler had the Battletech deck, Adrian had the Magic deck. They made it work, I don't know how, but it was quite bizzare to watch.

[Dr. Sylvan]

It would be weird because (1) BT Mechs have speeds, which Magic's creatures don't, (2) BT Mechs have giant toughness but low attack numbers offset by the incomplete toughness-recovery each turn (only the first few points of toughness heals in the cleanup step), (3) in BT combat, you actually rolled initiative to see who assigns damage first.

Also, those cards had awesome art. <3 BattleTech.

[Bram]

Well, like I said, it required some ad-hoc rules tweaking.

Obviously, it was best against bad Aggro since (1) it doesn't care about its life toal (which is a good thing since I'm attacking that) and (2) my 'Mechs can basically block&live pretty much anything. I used initiative as a sort of 'first strike' thingy and attacked their lib with missiles

Man, it's probably been like 4 years since I last played the BT card game. I'm, even a little foggy on how exactly it worked. I wish I knew someone with a deck...