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Author Topic: "The Probably Vanishing Food Chain Goblins"  (Read 6821 times)
Nantuko Rice
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« on: July 21, 2004, 10:45:09 am »

I was reading through JP's article (the one where he tells us how he lost to suicide and "He reveals his other two cards in hand - two Guerilla Tactics.") when I saw near the end of the article "And the probably vanishing of FCG".

I was going to post this in a reply to his topic but everyone else seamed more focus on Chains of Meph.

Why FCG? Why? We hardly knew ye. Even with all the high place finishes in Europe and even here, why is FCG vanishing? Honestly, even with all the high finishes and prizes FCG got me , with "suboptimal" builds, I don't and wouldn't reccomend playing FCG anymore, or at least for now.
 
The Deck:
The only Aggro-Combo deck out there. Combo's out on turns 3-4 and doesn't die to null rod. Basically goblin beats with green for Food Chain.

FCG Card Choices:
I'm not touching the core cards, only weird cards that were in/not in my decks.

Mirri's Guile: Stop netdecking my Newington deck and stop running this card. This card was a joke! I wasn't suppose to place high and people weren't suppose to see my deck and copy it by the masses. No it's not secret tech or whatever, it's horrible. The Joke: Ok, you know how blue mages like to brainstorm and fetch? I thought it would be funny if I did that. So there you have it. Stop diluting the FCG builds and stop running this card. Please!

Goblin Tinkerer/Vandals: These are cards that I really like but very little room is available to squeeze them in. The tinkerer moreso than the vandal. These should be run more of in artifact heavy environments. If artifacts are not present, I would probably run one or two  tinkerer. He gets to eat alot of factories before peoplel earn that he's not a mox monkey. I tested these guys out (by cutting prospector slots) as a "null rod." Vandals could hit and eat moxes. Or at the worse case, force your opponent to keep his moxes in hand.

Goblin Sharpshooter: Landstil is still dead, Keeper is back running decrees, and there's more fish than ever. I ran none of these at Waterbury but they need to come back.

Gempalm Incinerator: For every welder there is an incinerator. Except there's fewer welders now but more fish. I would still run these as 4 of's as they cantrip and FCG has very little draw (and don't start talking about the Guile).

Prospector: Eh? Mini combo with a prospector out when you don't have a Food Chain? Pfffffft. I never even knew this thing existed (whoops) until after my big Waterbury tournament win. I've never even gone for this mini-combo and I still don't like it. Confused

FCG Matchup Analysis:

Aggro (Oshawa): Wins 95% of the time.

Workshop (Slaver and Aggro): Trinisphere doesn't hurt as bad as Sphere of Resistance did. Artifact Mutation and Rack and Ruins from the side.

Control (Keeper, Tog, GAT): Easier to beat Tog due to sideboard hate (crypt) and a lack of removal spells. Keeper has to much removal to answer Lackey. GAT is just to good. Sad

Combo (Draw7, Dragon): FCG usually loses to faster combo. FCG lacks the ability to draw into it's combo peices so FCG's combo needs to be in hand. The problem is those other combo decks run force and FCG doesn't. The random REB against Timetwister can win and Dragon sees Crypt.

Fish (that popular deck): Fish supposedly loses to pure aggro strategies. Maybe it loses to Oshawa but not FCG. FCG likes to get incredibly lucking in it's fish matchups where the Fish player overextends and plays Standstill while FCG still has tricks up it's sleeve. Fish, when played by the better players, should beat FCG nearly all the time (If you're playing my build of Fish with the 3 stifle, 3 fire, 3 daze).

The Decline and Success:
Some stuff already mentioned that I'll bring up again.

(1) Surprise. Back in the day, no one knew how to play against FCG. To beat FCG, all you have to do is one thing, play the deck yourself. Well, that's how you beat every deck actually. Understand how your opponent's deck works by playing it yourself. People would Mindslaver Tog and have Tog kill itself, but when people slavered FCG, they didn't know what to do. Now they do. FCG has lost it's surprise value.

(2) Aggro-Combo. Worked well when everyone played Oshawa, and even a little time after that due to it's surprise value.

(3) To many netdeckers. Stop netdecking my bad versions of FCG. I win because I am lucky. There are to many diluted versions of FCG.

(4) Player skills. Netdeckers... are stereotypically those that netdeck budget decks and play without playtesting and such. They also do not have as much playing skills as other players. If some of the "type 1 pro players" would start playing more FCG and less fish.

(5) Lack of Growth. Interestingly, Fish and FCG are in the same boat. I doubt there will be new cards printed that will go into Fish and FCG. Goblins have probably reached their power potential in Onslaught, I doubt Wizards R&D will answer my dream and print a new Goblin Piledriver with Pro Blue & White. However, Fish continues to be a success while FCG... hasn't been recently. Fish doesn't need the surprise value.

(6) Adaptability. Fish can play many different configurations of stifles and dazes and such. All of them screw up your opponent. FCG doesn't. FCG's build is very "locked" and there is very little room to change stuff. The only disruption it has are 5 strips. (Dwarven Blastminer and Blood Moon sucks.)

(7) Card Obtainability. With more people being attracted to type 1 and Onslaught being rotated out of standard, you would think FCG is the optimal deck to build. But it's not because FCG cards will always go in FCG. Fish's FoW can always go to another deck when you want to change. Every type 2 player who's going into type 1, I ask them "So what are you building?" I skim through their binder and see Biddings and Piledrivers and Clamps, and they always reply "Fish. Do you have any cloud of faeries?"  

(8) Decline of Aggro. Rise of control and aggro-control. (Basically a rise of better decks that can handle FCG).

FCG was like the typewriter. It beat the crap out of paper and pencil but then the computer comes along. Will FCG be back in the future? I hope so,  because Aggro decks are nice and simple to play. Who wants to sit there and think. Yuck.

===

And... those are some of my thoughts and yes I am aware I am a bad writer. If anyone wants, I'll post a list of my FCG (if I still played it) and I could post my Fish list too. However, I'm currently not playing any of those decks. I'm currently trying to learn how to play with a control deck. Apparently third turn morph with no counter backup whatsoever is a bad plan. It was a good plan when it was a warchief.
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wuaffiliate
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« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2004, 12:20:18 pm »

Look what you did!



EDIT: i am however surprised you learned alot about FCG since waterbury. congrats.
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« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2004, 12:56:15 pm »

that's freaking HOT!! :lol:
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2004, 02:03:01 pm »

Hey, I have a FCG-related question.

Can FCG handle arcane laboratory? How about Leonin Bladetrap? Which would be better sideboard?

It's a little off topic maybe, but the numerous FCG posts have recently vanished.
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2004, 02:04:57 pm »

FCG can just go beat down, playing one threat a turn should overrun the opponent quickly, since they are under the same effect.

SBing lab vs FCG would be a bad idea.
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TrixR4Kidz
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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2004, 06:30:12 pm »

one solution to food chain goblins that advanced me to the final four of a hadley tourny.............


Engineerd Plague, if you play black and are concerned about foodchain, play that, it immediately beats Goblins and by immediately I mean it
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2004, 06:34:46 pm »

Quote from: TrixR4Kidz
one solution to food chain goblins that advanced me to the final four of a hadley tourny.............


Engineerd Plague, if you play black and are concerned about foodchain, play that, it immediately beats Goblins and by immediately I mean it


Engineered Plague doesn't do anything to the smart FCG player. You need atleast 2 on the board to seal up the game.

A Warchief, 2 Piledrivers and another random Goblin with 2 toughness (Ringleaders or SGC will do) are more than enough to kill someone with.
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TrixR4Kidz
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2004, 06:43:56 pm »

Quote
a Warchief, 2 Piledrivers and another random Goblin with 2 toughness (Ringleaders or SGC will do) are more than enough to kill someone with.


ummmm right....so if you can't deal with goblins when you have a plague out, then you don't really deserve to win the game then.  So yea, plague eliminates half the deck, but it doesn't do anything to them.... RIGHTTTTT, cuz 1/1 warchiefs and 0/1 pildrivers are wicked good.....

I think it'd be a little ridiculous if you played plague and they drew nothing but 2 toughness goblins, and if you can't possibly find a kill condition to blow their gigantic warchief, or fire/ice it or anything relavant, then YOUR the bad player.
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2004, 07:28:47 pm »

Quote from: TrixR4Kidz
RIGHTTTTT, cuz 1/1 warchiefs and 0/1 pildrivers are wicked good.....

A 1/1 Warchief still gives haste.  A 0/0 Recruiter and 1/1 Ringleader still trigger.  And a 0/1 Piledriver still gets +2/+0 for each other goblin attacking with it.
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TrixR4Kidz
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2004, 07:56:59 pm »

Ok, I was just speaking from personal experience, winning against food chain using plague, also in the semi-finals in a fairly recent power tourny, I saw goblins get beat by plague there as well, It does alot of damage, yea it doesn't disable the entire deck? I don't really know what does disable the whole deck, but plague pretty much ends the game, playtest against someone who drops turn 1 plague, then soon after deal with an angel/tog/grim lavamancer?CLOUDOFFARIES? anything
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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2004, 08:12:48 pm »

Hmm it seems as though I'm in the same boat here...

I've been playing FCG since it wasn't FCG (yay Gobvantage) and I now find myself liking Fish and Combo more. However, I disagree with the myth that the Gobs have died... let's just say they're lingering along with its homies Stax, Oshawa, Slaver and Sui  Rolling Eyes I've been thinknig as well as to why FCG is less played, and much of it is due to the deck rotation once again... out of aggro based and into control based. Mirrodin's hidden strengths and borkenness has been exhausted and we're now reverting back to tradition. Another big part of it is that now good players know the deck well enough not to make bad counters. All as you've pointed out already.

In summation, don't lose hope. FCG is still highly playable - my friend piloted my deck to 1st place through a sea of Fish and 4cControl this past friday and and long as any smart player is behind the wheels, the deck can still perform in today's meta.
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« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2004, 08:20:22 pm »

FCG is a good deck because it can kill you more than one way.  With or without the Food Chains.  These days in terms of beatdown it seems people are going more and more into artifact mode.  I wouldn't be suprised if a straight goblin sligh deck placed highly in an upcoming tourny because no one expects it.  Right now there are just so many choices of decks to play out there.  I also know a lot of FCG players that went from goblins to stupid little fish.

Long live the goblins, oh wait I just remembered I hate them.

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Gandalf_The_White_1
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« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2004, 10:19:01 pm »

I agree with you about the mirri's guile thing.  I wish people would just listen to the golden rule: mana source, goblin, foodchain (or also possibly "broken," with wheel of fourtune being the 1 card in that category, but that is the exception that proves the rule)

Personally, I find tinkerers kind of slow.  I like vandal better just because it is cheaper.

The strength of FCG is similar to that of many t1 decks: that versatility granted bu a hybrid, like the aggro/control of fish and Gro and the combo/control of Hulk.  Pure aggro and pure control are now obselete.

The abiliy to FCG to combo out and just win, or have a reliable aggro backup strategy as well it what makes it so strong.  It's raw power allows it to do well running only minimal disruption (in form of strip lands, and perhaps incineraters).
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« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2004, 10:31:38 pm »

Quote from: Nantuko Rice

Easier to beat Tog due to sideboard hate (crypt) and a lack of removal spells.

In my experience, Crypt has been a suboptimal "hate" effect against Hulk. Grave hate rarely functionally stops the draw engine, and it's more hand size than grave size that makes Psychatog influential to the game state. In any case I would be much more inclined to look at REB before Crypt if Tog was the issue at hand.
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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2004, 12:53:59 am »

Tog isnt an issue.
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DEA
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2004, 08:38:29 am »

a one liner doesn't really explain why tog isn't a problem
let's put it another way : gay piledrivers love to shaft psychatogs up the arse :lol:
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2004, 11:54:11 am »

Quote from: DEA
a one liner doesn't really explain why tog isn't a problem
let's put it another way : gay piledrivers love to shaft psychatogs up the arse :lol:

Let's put it a better way.  Tog loses to Fish, so good players won't be playing Tog for a while.
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2004, 12:15:55 pm »

A one liner does work here, because FCG has a favourable match vs Tog if the FCG player does not completely SUCK.
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2004, 02:30:10 pm »

I'll just sum it up real fast.
Decks you shouldn't need to worry about:
U/G Madness
Tog
Non-control/artifact Aggro of all kinds
Slaver decks

Decks you'll probably split against
Artifact Aggro (Including 7/10)
Good Fish players

Decks you'll usually lose too
Combo, though the Dragon match is far more winnable than Belcher or D7.
4c Control
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2004, 03:48:40 pm »

If the slaver player knows FCG he can cause major problems.  Watching FCG get comboed out of all it's goblins is always like watching a trainwreck.  Actually that's a like watching slaver kill anyone with their own combo.  But make them do it because sometimes it's hard to get the deck to combo itself to death.
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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2004, 07:22:29 pm »

Slaver is a very easy matchup for FCG since Slaver usually can never get a Goblin Welder to stick.  You can kill one with Gempalm Incinerator even if you've got nothing on your side of the board.
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2004, 08:06:20 pm »

i can back that up
not only that, the sideboard hate is just too much for slaver
null rods, mutates and rebs are a major pain in the ass
slaver has trouble doing their own thing, much less stopping the goblins

Quote
A one liner does work here, because FCG has a favourable match vs Tog if the FCG player does not completely SUCK.


you're probably right, but you're not explaining why, once again Smile
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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2004, 10:53:04 pm »

This isn't magic school, people can go play the damn matchup a hundred times to figure out why.
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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2004, 09:23:11 am »

Quote from: Klep
Quote from: TrixR4Kidz
RIGHTTTTT, cuz 1/1 warchiefs and 0/1 pildrivers are wicked good.....

A 1/1 Warchief still gives haste.  A 0/0 Recruiter and 1/1 Ringleader still trigger.  And a 0/1 Piledriver still gets +2/+0 for each other goblin attacking with it.


Nope dosn't work in any match-ups the damage lost is too much to regain.
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« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2004, 01:02:28 pm »

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Nope dosn't work in any match-ups the damage lost is too much to regain.

Do you not know how to do basic math?  Just 4 Piledrivers and a Warchief, even under a plague, is 33 damage.  3 Piledrivers and a Warchief is 19 damage.   That doesn't even count the fact that with an SGC in play you can sac the Warchief and 2 other goblins to do 4 more damage.  Did you even think about what you just wrote?
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« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2004, 03:16:37 pm »

Quote from: Klep
Quote from: TrixR4Kidz
RIGHTTTTT, cuz 1/1 warchiefs and 0/1 pildrivers are wicked good.....

A 1/1 Warchief still gives haste.  A 0/0 Recruiter and 1/1 Ringleader still trigger.  And a 0/1 Piledriver still gets +2/+0 for each other goblin attacking with it.


I am not sure the 0/0 recruiter triggers.
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2004, 04:22:18 pm »

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I am not sure the 0/0 recruiter triggers.

It does.  It comes into play, which meets the conditions for its trigger.  The trigger goes on the stack when state based effects are checked, at which point the game also happens to notice that there is a creature with 0 toughness in play, and the Recruiter goes to the graveyard.
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« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2004, 01:14:29 am »

Quote from: Klep
Quote from: Frappie

Nope dosn't work in any match-ups the damage lost is too much to regain.

Do you not know how to do basic math?  Just 4 Piledrivers and a Warchief, even under a plague, is 33 damage.  3 Piledrivers and a Warchief is 19 damage.   That doesn't even count the fact that with an SGC in play you can sac the Warchief and 2 other goblins to do 4 more damage.  Did you even think about what you just wrote?


Yes Klep as an actual FCG player I do know what I'm talking about. You forget that the engineered plague is the tip of the iceberg. There is more removal and if you play against anybody that allows 4x piledriver in play then you shouldn't let them pick up magic cards. I'm sorry Klep but it  seems like you playtest against goblins and don't actually play them. I understand, it's ok that your posts regarding FCG are just a little more worthless then mine, but do you really have to keep opening your mouth? The sh!t that comes out of it related to FCG is like third world country sh!t, no digging a hole, just plain awful sh!t. Plain and simple.

Oh and if you respond to this Klep with another lame @ss argument I'm just gonna bring you down further. B!atch
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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2004, 01:25:08 am »

Are you actually serious? Was that a serious post?

Quote
do you really have to keep opening your mouth? The sh!t that comes out of it related to FCG is like third world country sh!t, no digging a hole, just plain awful sh!t. Plain and simple.


That doesn't really make sense.
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« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2004, 10:08:28 am »

I was hoping this thread wouldn't suck in the end.  Even if I don't agree with the original post personally, I thought this could end up as a meaningful discussion.  Then this kind of crap happens?  This thread is locked.  Verbal warning issued.[/color]
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