[Deck discussion] 3c Tog

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I just wanted to get the ball rolling on what everyone thinks of 3c Tog. With the huge amount of fish, and 4cc decks flying around, you better believe there'll be tons of wastes. Crucible makes this much worse. With that in mind, would a 3c Tog deck do better in this type of metagame? You lose red, but other than a MD shaman (which can easily be cut, seeing as how slaver seems to have disappeared, and it's not terribly effective vs. other topdecks), you just limit what you have in your board. Let's take a look at what usual 4c Tog decks may run in the board:

Fire/Ice
Artifact Mutation
Rack and Ruin
REB
Shaman
Firestorm

Of those cards, artifact mutation is probably the most irreplaceable one. Against decks like 7/10 and such, cunning wish---->Mutation becomes your win condition. REB is becoming less and less useful, as Tog's numbers have dwinddled, and 4cc is on the rise. REB does nothing to stop scrying, the only card you really need to counter. As for Fire/Ice and Firestorm, it is a huge blow in the fish/fcg matchup, but there are other cards that can replace them (echoing decay, smothers, snuff out, etc.). Now lets look at the pros of going down to 3 colors:

1) A much more stable manabase. A big reason why fish has such a favorable matchup vs. tog is the mana denial of Fish. With 24 mana and only 3 colors, you get a much more stable manabase and it's much more likely that you hit that crucial 3-4 mana where you can start casting your bombs like intuition. Also, a minor point, it's MUCH harder for fish to shut you off black because of the 1 MD Swamp.

2) You get to use Back to basics in the board. I've had pretty good experiences with this card, and it seems like it could do a number vs. 4cc and even fish (shutting off manlands). It also helps against randomness like dragon and workshop decks.

Here's a starting point for 3c Tog:

4 Fetches
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Islands
1 Swamp
5 Moxes
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus
1 LoA
-24 Mana Souces

3 Togs
-3 Creatures

3 Intuition
3 Cunning Wish
4 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Acccumulated Knowledge
2 Deep Analysis
-33 other spells

3 Back To basics
1 Berserk
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Oxidize
1 Naturalize
2 BEB
1 Coffin Purge
1 Smother
1 Echoing Decay
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Open slot

The list should be rather standard...I run 4 duress instead of 3 duress + Twist, because duress is so amazing vs. other control and combo. Getting that early scrying makes a huge difference. I really want to add another tog or deed, as both are pretty amazing vs. fish and workshop decks. However, they seem unnecessary, so I left them out. I won't post any results or such, as I haven't had the time to test 3c tog as much as I like. I REFUSE to believe that Tog is a bad deck simply because it's got one bad matchup. Anyways, discuss!

-Bob

[Ultima]

I definitely agree with the notion that Tog is not a bad deck just because of Fish or 4CC.  I think its an interesting idea of going to 3-color tog to help against the wastes and LD.  I do think though that Rack and Ruin is about equal to Artifact mutation against workshop.

I think 3-color tog with MD B2B resembling the euro decks is also an option.

[nietzreznor]

I definitely still think Tog is still a viable option--I'm not sure why some people think the deck is dead just because it didn't perform well at the SCG tourney, or because a particularly bad matchup (Fish) is popular right now.

    I think going back to the three color build is a very interesting idea.  I had thought about it at some point, but dismissed it mostly because I really liked Artifact Mutation and things like Firestorm.  However, since Fish is extremely popular right now, and B2B is really strong against it, 3 colors doesn't seem like a bad idea.
 
   One question about your decklist:
 
     Why 4 Duress?  It seems like, if Fish is one of the biggest problems, we should cut down to at least 3 (if not 2) Duress, since Duress is horrible against Fish.  Personally, I hate not running Twist, but even if one didn't run it, I'm not sure that 4 Duress is necessary.

   Anyways, I'm glad to see not everyone has given up on Tog...

    -nietzreznor

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Why 4 Duress? It seems like, if Fish is one of the biggest problems, we should cut down to at least 3 (if not 2) Duress, since Duress is horrible against Fish. Personally, I hate not running Twist, but even if one didn't run it, I'm not sure that 4 Duress is necessary.

While duress is pretty ass vs. fish, it's never dead early on, plus, with the rise of 4cc, you absolutely need duresses. In my testing vs. 4cc, if you can stop their scryings, they run out of gas like it's nobody's business. You beat aggro fairly easily (well, maybe not if you're JP...j/k ) so the only matchups you worry about are control, aggro control, and combo, where duress shines. Also, it's not terrible vs. artifact prison decks, as nabbing a thirst/crucible/trinisphere is quite nice. I guess I can see a point of going to 3 duress if combo or control didn't have a big presence on the metagame.

[Moxlotus]

In the midwest almost all Tog decks have been 3 colors for a while now.  Many of them play Wastelands instead of B2B.  I played B2B Tog last week in a tournament and crapped out to a Modular deck and Sligh.  The deck is a work in progress.  I also think that it is a little too early to count Tog out.  B2B is a house against Fish and is great against 4CC.  And if you've ever experienced the fun of your opponent having Blood Moon while you control B2B, it feels like Stasis mirrors.

[Gabethebabe]

Workshop player to Tog player:
"How do you win?"
"Well, I Drain a spell and play Intuition, I put 3 AK´s in my gravevard and start drawing cards like mad. Than I drop a Tog and I wait a turn to attack and Cunning Wish for Berserk for the win"
"Impressive"
"Yeah, and how does your deck win?"
"I play Workshop-Trinisphere and I win"
"Oh"

[goober]

I don't think Fish is the death of Tog, but the abundance of REB.  That card is so powerful against this deck that it makes running it dangerous.  4cc can so effectivly use REB to beat Tog, while it cannot do the same.  REB shuts down every aspect of this; the drawing, countering, and win condition.

4cc is just a stronger deck because of that liability.  Scrying is also a more powerful draw engine overall.  It also gets the sidboard power of Red.  This version cannot Rack and Ruin or Artifact Mutation, which is a very large detrement against Workshop based decks.

[Ultima]

4cc is just a stronger deck because of that liability.  Scrying is also a more powerful draw engine overall.  

Scrying definitely not a stronger engine than intuition/ak.  Intuition/AK is second only to the draw of combo (Draw7) or possibly the draw of Slavery.

On the topic at hand though, I really think that MD B2B Tog would work very well in this metagame.  As Clown said, the metagame is littered with 4CC and Fish which B2B can hose.  The tog deck of the moment seems to be GAT but B2B hoses that too (trust me on this).  Therefore, I think this might be a good starting point.

B2B Tog

3 Psychatog

3 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

2 Back to Basics
1 Mind Twist
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Gush
2 Deep Analysis
2 Cunning Wish
3 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
4 Brainstorm

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
4 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta

SB

1 Berserk
1 Duress
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Deep Analysis
1 Smother
1 Ghastly Demise (Fucken Angels)
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Naturalize
1 Back to Basics
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Oxidize
2 Ground Seal

I didn't feel that mana crypt was the way to go because B2B has an inherently slower gameplan and I'd rather have the basic island.  
I do think that mind twist has a much wider application than the 4th duress and to be honest, duress is a better board slot than twist.

I don't think that this deck needs 4 B2B because 1 usually does the trick.  
Ghastly Demise has been an amazing board card and is useful in killing angels and artifact creatures.  
Ground Seal is a sound card that proactively deals with welders and random dragon.
BEB's and oxidizes cannot be less than 2's in 3 color, the absence of red can have a huge tax.

Possibilties

Crucible- this might be a side board option becauase it deals with wastes and other crucibles.  Time will tell though if should be used and if so how many.

Stifle- once saw wide play in tog, stifle sounds like an option with all the wastes going around but with the absence of slavery and dragon, doesn't look as good as other things

Thoughts/Comments?

[Gabethebabe]

I would replace either Smother or Ghastly Demise with Plaguebearer

Whenever I see Naturalize in a SB I think of Tel-Jilad Justice as a possible replacement.

[jazzykat]

That card is so powerful against this deck that it makes running it dangerous.  4cc can so effectivly use REB to beat Tog, while it cannot do the same.  REB shuts down every aspect of this; the drawing, countering, and win condition.

True REB is very powerful against tog, although I will maintain that a 1 turn kill is better than the slower angel kill (granted, a flipped over angel that hits you a few times means tog has to hit for an ass load).

I also understand that 4cc wins the game long before it kills you (by taking unrecoverable card advantage) but I would still rather kill the person outright quickly.

My personal feeling is that putting duress back into tog and upping the basic count, perhaps by going to 3 colors should give it pretty good game against 4cc because they can't reb duress either, while you can't reb scrying (which takes both mana and life).

Against fish, well...I am at a loss. I have never really figured out how to kill it with tog. The little guys usually over run me. The best I can do is keep curiosity and lavamancers down and resolve tog.

[Ultima]

Many times my teammates have suggested TJ Justice as the better card but its really hard to steer away from Naturalize's versatility.

I used to love playing a plaguebearer in the SB.  Recently though I cut it for the demise because fish usually burn him away with a Lavamancer.

I understand its usefulness though because he keeps angel off the table in the early game but I thought that running only 1 was too random and unreliable because he has no application past the early game against 4CC.  I don't think there's any room for another in the SB.

[nietzreznor]

Personally, I prefer Snuff Out to either Ghastly Demise or Plaguebearer.

   I really do not think that REB can kill an entire deck.  I mean, it doesn't hit YawgWill or Twist (two total bombs), and it can always be Duressed away.

  @ Ultima:  I like the idea of the MD B2B (since it hoses the two most populr decks, Fish and 4CC).  Why only 22 mana source, though?  It seems that, even with 5 basics, 22 mana is kinda light against waste-heavy decks.  And, even with B2B in the main deck, I would still find a way to squeeze LoA in.

    Stifle seems kind of narrow right now (unless Tendrils combo comes back big).  A SB Crucible might be interesting; however, with 5 basics, I am not sure that it is necessary.  Crucible will only be devastating if they manage to draw Strip Mine.  

     -nietzreznor

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Workshop player to Tog player:
"How do you win?"
"Well, I Drain a spell and play Intuition, I put 3 AK´s in my gravevard and start drawing cards like mad. Than I drop a Tog and I wait a turn to attack and Cunning Wish for Berserk for the win"
"Impressive"
"Yeah, and how does your deck win?"
"I play Workshop-Trinisphere and I win"
"Oh"

That would work, if Workshop player played first, and tog didn't have a force.

I don't think Fish is the death of Tog, but the abundance of REB. That card is so powerful against this deck that it makes running it dangerous. 4cc can so effectivly use REB to beat Tog, while it cannot do the same. REB shuts down every aspect of this; the drawing, countering, and win condition.

4cc is just a stronger deck because of that liability. Scrying is also a more powerful draw engine overall. It also gets the sidboard power of Red. This version cannot Rack and Ruin or Artifact Mutation, which is a very large detrement against Workshop based decks.

The abundance of REB really doesn't hinder Tog all that much. As stated before, Duress and Mind twist take care of this problem. Think of it this way. If I take your scrying with a duress and you hold 3 REBs, You are now playing catch up. I would MUCH rather be casting deeps and AK's than sitting around with REB's. I personally perfer Duress over Mind twist, but I can definitely see an argument to run twist.

@Ultima: Your deck looks really strong, although I would probably make some adjustments. What are your thoughts on 3 MD B2B? I had 3 SB, so I could side them all in and rely on seeing one early with Intuition. I also agree with nietz in that you should probably fit in LoA. Also, this is more of a preference, but I like the security of having 3 Wishes, instead of 3 wishes and a gush.

As for Crucible, I think it may be unnecessary. With 5 basics MD, you really shouldn't be mana screwed. As for stifle, I think only time will tell if this card will make the cut. If you are worried about opposing wastelands(which you probably shouldn't), teferi's response may be a better option.

@nietzreznor: I also prefer snuff out to plaguebearer or ghastly demise. I have also been entertaining the idea of playing plague spitter (1BB, 2/2 during your upkeep he pings everything). With a MD basic swamp, it's easier to cast him, and he takes care of all none manland fish, although it's probably just a silly idea.

[jpmeyer]

While I think that the whole "REB advantage" thing that people claim that 4cc has over Tog isn't entirely accurate (you can REB Tog's draw, but are you really going to REB Deep Analysis or Gush?  And it's harder to fight a counter war over a 4cc Scrying than it is over a 2cc AK,) the fact that Fish and 4cc will be boarding REBs against you makes B2B a lot weaker when they can stop it with such a cheap counter.

This is what I played at SCG:

5 Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

5 Moxes
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

3 Psychatog
1 Gorilla Shaman (This wasn't amazing or anything but I don't know what I'd replace it with.  Maybe Sol Ring/Tog/Mystical/Duress)

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Intution
3 Deep Analysis
3 Cunning Wish
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

2 Duress
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor

SB:
4 Tempting Wurm
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Artifact Mutation
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Berserk
1 Pyroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast (would cut for Snuff Out/Terminate)
1 Firestorm

Tempting Wurm is for Fish.  My method of thinking was that we'll say that you're going first game 2 (since you lost game 1.)  You go fetch, Mox, Wurm.  Assuming it isn't Forced, the worst your opponent will probably drop is something like land, manland, Lavamancer, Cloud, Null Rod.  Null Rod doesn't matter at this point since now you have out the kind of card that Null Rod is supposed to stop you from casting in the first place.  Land/Lavamancer basically just means that they got to go first.  And Cloud is a not very threatening versus a 5/5.  Also, any Standstills in their hand now become useless and can't be put into play.  The other reason that Wurm works here is because they have a somewhat spell-heavy deck, so that further reduces the chance further that they'll drop a load of stuff.

[Ultima]

I think its fairly easy to drop 1 island for an LOA.  Lately LOA hasn't been excessively useful though with the meta how it is.

Snuff out i'm sure is good but I think the life loss of too much right and unnecassary while Demise does much the same for a more minimal cost.

@ Clown

I don't think that the MD B2B should exceed 2.  Remember, Tog sees every card in its deck by turn 5.  More to the point though, I think its important to remember that B2B is only disruption to slow down 4CC and Fish while Tog facilitates its gameplan.   More than 2 would probably clog your early hands and come up too often when they don't matter.

I understand the sentiments toward the 3rd wish.  i'm really trying to find the room for it.  i just can't gush though.  It just does what wish wants to at instant speed and can save lands too.  Additionally, I find that B2B usually provides the answer to alot of what I'd want the 3rd for anyway if I was playing it for more answers.

@ JP

Much the same as the previous statement, B2B is only for disruption and usually only needs 2 or 3 turns to do its job.  After that Tog usually has the game.  

i do think the Wurms were a great and interesting idea against Fish.  Don't you feel it difficult though to run 4 slots for 1 match up in the board.  I guess though there are other applications.

[tooMuchCoffeeMan]

Not sure if tempting wurm is the answer but if fish is a major concern i don't see a problem with devoting 4 boards slots to win this match up.

[Ultima]

Not sure if tempting wurm is the answer but if fish is a major concern i don't see a problem with devoting 4 boards slots to win this match up.

I say this only because then decks like 4CC, the Man Show and random things like Sui or Sligh have a better chance at winning from the board being spread too short.

And in point to fact, that happened.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I thought tempting wurm was an odd choice. I was playing 3 Dryads SB in tog for the longest time (thanks to r3as0n) and it really helps vs. randomness....I don't see how tempting wurm is better (unless they go fetch, lavamancer). Even then, growing the dryad w/ a force and a brainstorm usually does the trick.

2 B2B should be decent for now...I do agree that the land count can go down to 23 now, simply because of the basics.

As far as SB space is concerned, no doubt will I devote 3-4 spaces vs. fish when I go to GenCon. Right now, I'm thinking something along the lines of:

1 Berserk
1 Vamp. Tutor
2 Oxidize
1 Naturalize
1 Fact
1 Coffin Purge
2 BEB
1 Snuff out
1 Smother
4 open slots

in those open slots I'd probably run 1-2 deeds, a couple of dryads, or something along those lines.

Also, it's come to my attention that stifle really should be in the board. Against fish, post board, if they play a maze, it can stall long enough for them to win. So basically, I added stifle.

I don't know if this is a good call, as B2B does shut down the maze plan. Speaking of which, has anyone thought of running a single mana short SB to wish for? B2B then wish -----> Mana Short is REALLY strong, although it may be over kill.

[Ultima]

I understand the notions toward Fish, but I just can't SB that much for a single match unless I know the metagame for certain.  I'll have to take a Shockwave perspective on this really.  

I don't know if 4 slots is warranted though, as B2B usually shuts down 1/2 for their men and the fattest ones at that.  The games sort of swing in such a way as the tog player becomes the aggressor playing B2B and hosing out the Fish player because his standstills become useless and he only has 4 forces.  Games 2 and 3, you can side in another B2B and duress/removal and play the aggro player again.  i found this strategy to be very good so far for Fish.

[Godot]

First off, as for the SB removal slot I dont believe there can be any arguement about what this should be.  Snuff Out really is that good.  

Secondly, the 4cc matchup.  This is a very winnable matchup.  By no means am I saying this is an easy matchup, but any competent Tog player should win this match.  If you Duress away Scryings and dont do anything stupid like fight a counter war over an Angel, you should win.  

JP:  Are your thoughts on Tempting Wurms effect on the Fish matchup purely theoretical or do they result from testing?  There seems to be a growing movement toward fish decks running more bounce(whether this is right or wrong I cant say, but people are doing it) which makes the Wurm much weaker.


Getting back to the major topic of this thread, is B2B Tog really the best option?  The only matchup that truly needs improved is the Fish matchup.  Is B2B superior to just running Tsabos Web in 4c Tog and maintaining stronger matchups against FCG and Workshop decks?

How much are y'all finding the Fish matchup improves with the B2B?

[jpmeyer]

I'd rather have Web over B2B against Fish since it's harder for them to deal with and easier for you to cast since it doesn't require blue.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I honestly think B2B is the better option. Tsabo's web is incredibly narrow, only shutting down fish and dragon, where B2B, if left unchecked for a few turns absolutely destroys 4cc, Fish, and workshop decks (not to mention some other less played decks, like GAT). Seeing as how these 3 decks are all popular at the moment, I'm favoring B2B. Also, B2B is only one option that 3c Tog offers. Being able to play 4-5 basic lands in the deck is simply amazing. It makes fish's 3 wasteland hands total ass.

[Ultima]

It should be understand that B2B Tog is being suggested because it is an option of 3-color Tog which is what this thread is about.

I don't really understand the notions towards B2B being the worse option when there are so many decks that lose to it, that are so popular right now.  Web is good against fish but B2B has such a wider application.

@Godot

I think your assessment of 4CC is very off.  While I believe that is winnable, I don't think its nearly as easy or as straight forward as you make it out to be.  Might I remind you that there were many very competant and experienced players with Tog at the last few big tournies like Starcity and 4CC still took it.

More to the point, Fish is NOT Tog's only bad match right now.  Fish might be the worst but that's largely due to its popularity.  I would say 4CC is probably not favorable and Workshop decks with COW are not favorable either as they were designed to beat Tog.