Thought Project: Green in 4CC?

[brturn]

Hello,

I've been following the discussions of metagaming 4CC against 7/10 split and the resurgance of using City of Brass in 4CC.  This got me thinking back to the time when 4CC was 5CC and we used a few green cards here and there.  I wonder if Green would be viable in 5CC today?

The thought project is this:

If all lands produced 5-colors, would green have a place in 5CC - and which green cards would you use?

Give it a ponder before reading my thoughts below!





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My initial search narrowed the field to these five cards, focusing on maindeck-only cards:
- Regrowth
- Living Wish
- Sylvan Library
- Crop Rotation
- Gaea's Blessing

With all this talk of "balancing the color wheel", you'd think the intervening 3 blocks since 5CC was typical would have given something more useful in green.. *sigh*  As far as my search revealed, the only recent viable card is Living Wish.

Discussion:

Regrowth - Still the same; broken and loving it.  I believe this card is still viable in a 5CC build.  1G: Destroy target land.  1GU: Draw 3 cards.  2GU: Take another turn after this one.  etc.

Living Wish - Has two modes: Creature-fetch and Land-fetch.

As creature-fetch, the typical utility-creatures would not have to take up MD space (mox monkey, plaguebearer, flametongue kavu).  Eventually there may be a useful 1 or 2-drop blue creature with card drawing which could act as the standard target when utility-creatures were not needed.

As a land-fetch, place the specialized lands in the board (Stripmine, Library of Alexandria, 1x fetchland) and wish out the one you need.

Alternatively, a 'block' of wishes can be viewed as 'deck compression'.  For instance the most recent 4CC lists have included 2x Mox Monkey, 2-3x Angel, Stripmine, 4x Wasteland, fetchlands, etc.  Moving some to the sideboard (finding room is left as an excersize for the reader) could free up maindeck room.  Perhaps up to 4 slots not including those taken up by the wishes.

The obvious negative for Living Wish is that it is a Sorcery..

Sylvan Library - Brainstorm every turn with the option of keeping all the cards sounds too good to be true.  With ubiquitous fetchlands Sylvan is better than ever.  Is it good enough?  I belive not, but a permanent draw engine is a nice touch.  Also Sylvan interacts poorly with brainstorm.

Crop Rotation - Can be viewed as a narrow version of Living Wish in 5CC.  In that light, it pales in comparision to Living Wish.

Gaea's Blessing - Cantrip, Regrowth, and Mill-avoidance rolled into one.  From the perspective of 5CC, this card does not meet the bar.

Addenum:

My discussion on Sylvan/Brainstorm dissonance got me thinking; in a 5CC deck with Sylvan, Serum Visions would synergize with Sylvan much better than brainstorm.

Thanks for reading, and I hope it's been entertaining/educational!  Are there any green cards (perhaps good utility or sideboard cards) that I missed?
--Bryan

[Matt]

Of all those suggestions, only Living Wish is intriguing (Regrowth is merely nice). Sylvan is downright terrible compared to the Scrying engine (and was included mostly as a reaction to the omnipresence of control decks), Crop Rotation doesn't do anything unless you're focused on Crucible (i.e. at least 3 between MD and SB), and Blessing is beyond useless - control decks are no longer the masturbatory machines they used to be. Now they just kill you instead of dicking around when given an opening.

Also, an aside:

With all this talk of "balancing the color wheel", you'd think the intervening 3 blocks since 5CC was typical would have given something more useful in green.. *sigh* As far as my search revealed, the only recent viable card is Living Wish.

They made TONS of useful green cards. Just not controlling cards. Stop looking through your Vintage-focals.

[VGB]

Some noteworthy greenies you omitted:

Bind
Holistic Wisdom
Oxidize
Berserk
Drop of Honey
Seedtime
Pernicious Deed
Ground Seal
Root Maze
Krosan Reclamation

The problem with most of these cards is that they are conditional/defensive cards, and thus usually relegated to the sideboard.  4cControl usually tries to plays answers that are also threats, or simply the best answers in the game, and the only card in the above list that is a standalone threat is Holistic Wisdom, which is simply too slow and requires double green.  Had it only cost {G}...

[TrixR4Kidz]

I don't think he forgot those green cards, he did say he was only listing "maindeck worthy cards" not "good green cards in general".... I mean don't get me wrong maindeck berserk is unstoppable in 4cC....errrr 5cC...but still......

[VGB]

I don't think he forgot those green cards, he did say he was only listing "maindeck worthy cards" not "good green cards in general".... I mean don't get me wrong maindeck berserk is unstoppable in 4cC....errrr 5cC...but still......

In an appropriate meta any one of those cards I listed could be considered as maindeck tools for 5cC (albeit poor ones) - and when I spoke of situational cards, that includes those listed by brturn.

Living Wish is indeed a powerful tool, but you have to consider the following:

1) Your have to pollute your sideboard to make room for wishboard options.

2) The speed is of concern.

3) In order to fit in Living Wish and make it provide more flexibility than not playing it at all, you need to replace at least 2 different individual creature or utility land slots in your deck.   Adding 1 Living Wish actually detracts from a decks flexbility, because Living Wish performs 2 main functions: it virtually increases the count of specific cards in your deck (whichever creatures/lands are in your wishboard), and renders you less susceptible to game removal effects such as StP.  Adding only 1 Living Wish to a deck does not increase your virtual card count (and having multiple wishboard options with a single maindeck Living Wish is just silly) and lowers the odds of simply drawing into the card you need.  Adding 2 though virtually increases the card count of wishables and adds the flexibility of swapping for whichever card best fits the current game state.

The crucial question then becomes this: can you find room in Kæeper for 2 x Living Wish?

[brturn]

VGB/TrixR4Kidz,

That's correct, I was searching for cards specifically for the maindeck.  If green were added as a tertiary color alongside red & white, would any green cards make it into the maindeck?

Holistic Wisdom - I totally love this card, but I've never been able to get it to 'work' in a deck.  If only it was 1UU!

Bind, Oxidize, Berserk, Drop of Honey, Seedtime, Root Maze, Krosan Reclamation - I'm not sure these would fit the theme of 5CC, although I'm certainly willing to entertain the possibility.  Root Maze is very interesting as a sideboard card vs combo.

Pernicious Deed - I hadn't thought about this one, but it is arguably the most flexible Disk effect.  And with all the cheap permanents running around the meta, this card is more valuable every day.  (I notice WTF/r is using it too)

Matt,

You are correct, green is much more valuable in standard than it was before they began balancing the color wheel.  But the topic of the thread is to entertain the idea of adding green to 5CC and see which cards 'shake out' as being worthy.  I guess I shouldn't poke at WotC for not adding control to green..

VGB,

1) Completely valid point, and the major reason I don't think Living Wish is vialble in a 'real' 5CC build.

2) I would disagree.  Cunning Wish was touted as being too slow when it was first introduced, but I rarely have trouble finding drain-mana or a sol-ring to fill up the 2U, not to mention the spell that it fetches.  I'll stick out my neck here and say that most of the situations you need one of your sideboarded options, Living Wish will provide adequate speed for; Exalted Angel, FTK, Mox Monkey, Plaguebearer, Stripmine, LoA, fetchland..

3) Yes, exactly what I was reffering to when I mentioned deck compression.  Let's say you run 4x Living Wish (go all out!) replacing 1x Mox Monkey, 2x Exalted Angel, and Stripmine.  Now you can drop LoA(it's sided), and the other Exalted Angel + Mox Monkey, freeing up 3 slots maindeck.  I should mention that my 4CC build runs 3x Exalted, 2x Mox Monkey.

More interestingly.. what if you ran 2x Cunning, 2x Living, and one win condition main.  That's 2 cards (replacing 1x Cunning, 1x Mox Monkey), freeing up 6 slots (2x Exalted Angel, 2x Mox Monkey, 1x Stripmine, 1x LoA).  That's a lot of slots!

You're safe in the end-game, since you still have an Exalted Angel maindeck, but you put situationally relevent cards in the sideboard (1x Exalted, 1x Mox Monkey, 1x Stripmine, 1x LoA, 1x Fetch, 1x FTK).

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Thanks for entertaining this thread, I hope you've had fun with it too.  So far, the consensus seems to be:

Worthy Green cards for hypothetical 5CC (and why we don't use them):
Regrowth - Would probably be used in 5CC.
Living Wish - Interesting, but not realistic due to sideboard squeezing.
Pernicious Deed - Color cost too high.
Artifact Mutation - Color cost too high.
Hollistic Wisdom - Color cost too high.

Did I miss any?

--Bryan

[xerxes]

Green has very few playable additions to keeper. The list you have made is already stretching beyond green’s natural limits. Regrowth so closely resembles the blue Relearn, and that does not even see play. Pernicious Deed however is a card with a lot of promise. The Deed can even take the place of Balance if you are considering cutting it like Klep. Sylvan Library is completely outclassed by Skeletal Scrying. Fastbond just does too little for a control deck that does not plan to combo out.

If you have your heart set on splashing green, the only reason to do so is for sideboard options and a win condition. The best win conditions in green are Call of the Herd, Quiron Dryad, and some sort of Oath of Druids combo.

If I was going to add green to the deck, my kill condition would be.
4 Hermit Druid
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Future Sight
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Soldevi Digger

This is as narrow a combo kill condition as I can make right now. The only useless cards are Soldevi Digger and Krosan Reclamation.

Here is how the combo works
Cast Hermit Druid
Next turns upkeep spend G to use Hermit’s effect dumping your whole library into the grave, and flashback your Krosan Rec for Yawg will.
Play Yawg Will from your Hand, returning the following
4-5 Moxes
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
Then with that mana, not using the lotus, cast
1 Future Sight
1 Soldevi Digger
1 Time Walk

On your Time Walk turn, Soldevi Digger the Black Lotus and play it with Future Sight  3 Billion times. Then Stack Ancestral Recall and draw your whole graveyard. Then Ancestral Recall your opponent, Mind Twist him for three cards with 4 Mana Drain and Force Backup. Repeat and deck your opponent.

That has to be the most complex combo ever, which makes it fun.
Note: Grave hate can destroy this combo, and you must have counter backup before playing this.

[TrixR4Kidz]

No, None of those cards that you listed would be an appropriate mainboard card unless your an idiot.... why would you mainboard a freaking berserk in 5cC? that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard, and my discussion about this insane idea, and stupid suggestions is OVER.

[Phele]

@Xerxes: As far as your combo is fun to play why not play the old Grim/Power combo with Oath of Druids in the sideboard. Against any creature deck side out your creature win conditions but keep in Grim Monolith and Powe Artifact. Side in Oath of Druids and Krosan Reclamation. When they play any creature play Oath, activate it next turn, put your whole library in the yard. Play Reclamation for yag will and something else. Carst Will play Grim/Power with Fastbond or Moxen and kill him. Works against really solidly.

Edit: Oops, I just saw you already mentioned "some sort of Oath combo". But anyway, this combo is really worth adding green in an aggro heavy meta. You also should add Pernicious Deed and Holistic Wisdom. Look at deck number four here for great list:

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=99