Where the PTQ circuit is and how this affects Vintage

[Ric_Flair]

I recently played in a Block format tournament, this past weekend's PTQ in Boston, and I must say that the tournament sucked.  It sucked for a whole host of reasons, and is proof, why, in my mind, Vintage is the superior Constructed format right now.  The thing that is so striking is how different the events themselves are.  I think that this is important for this community, especially in light of Kerz's unifying/diversifying thread, because as the format grows we have a good deal of control as to what it becomes.    Wizards has basically cleared the field, sponsoring only one tournament the whole year.  This means that Vintage is OUR format.  As it grows though we have to keep in sight what the PTQ circuit does right and what it does wrong.  And right now the list of things it does wrong is pretty freakin' prodigous.

The first thing is the format itself.  There is less fun, less diversity, less innovation, and more predictability in the PTQ circuit constructed formats than there has ever been.  The Block format right now is literally the worst format I have ever played.  At least with brokenness like UBC Academy era decks the wins were spectacular.  EVERY game I played in was started off with a Simulacrum.  Sometimes in the riveting games he was played on turn 3.  GASP!  The cards that are good are so vastly more powerful than the bad cards that the already small cardpool has shrunk to something frighteningly tiny.  Here is almost an exhaustive list of the MirBC de facto cardpool:

Ravager
Arcbound Worker
Disciple of the Vault
Myr Enforcer
Frogmite
Ornithoper
Aether Vial
Cranial Plating
Thoughtcast
Shrapnel Blast
Artifact Lands
Oxidize
Electrostatic Bolt
Eternal Witness
Viridian Shaman
Tooth and Nail
Reap and Sow
Sylvan Scrying
Cloudposts
Magma Jet
Pulse of the Forge
Pulse of the Fields
Darksteel Ingot
R/G Talisman
U/B and U/W Talisman
Molder Slug
Platinum Angel
Colossus
Troll Ascetic
Simulacrum
Blinkmoth Nexus
Fireball
Oblivion Stone
Megatog
Furnace Dragon
Darksteel Citadel
Condescend
Serum Visions
Echoing Truth
Echoing Decay
Pristine Angel
Mindslaver
March of the Machines
Tel-Jilad Justice
Leonine Abunas
Duplicant
Krack Clan Ironworks
Myr Incubator
Pendant Prism
Chrome Mox
Basic Lands

That is about a list of 55 cards or so and it is the ENTIRE format.  This format is so fluky and so luck/draw based that many well-established pros were playing with me at the 0-2 tables.   The coin-flip, Spy v. Spy feel has never, ever been worse.  I know that this was the last tournament in the season meaning that the metagame was well defined, but this was so, so awful.  I am not sure if people realize this, but the shallowness of this card pool is not that much different than the diversity in a standard deck of cards.  Maybe that is why people are leaving Magic to play Poker.  There is not much difference in diverse strategies between the two games and one pays out a hell of a lot more.  That and a deck of Poker cards costs 3.29 whereas a standard block deck is probably more than $100.  I know the buy ins are high, but the reward is much greater.  MirBC is the absolute dregs of Magic.  There is nothing more wrote, boring or stupid than this format.  

But if the format sucked and the event was okay than it would not be that bad.  But the both the people and the TOs sucked, in general.  The majority of the people fell into two camps:  the would-be Poker players and the Lost Boys.  Spikes and Timmys and that is it.  The intelligent, interesting people that populate Vintage events, people like Kerz and Jacob, were no where to be found.  It was as if the bowl alley had evacuated into the tournament hall.  Everyone was so sharp and pissed off with their losing that the entire event was a drag.  There were a few bright spots here and there, but many of them were Vintage players, ironically enough.  

The TOs, YMG, just absolute suck.  Rob has morphed from a hardworking business man into an absolute jackass.  First the event cost $20.  This is insane.  The prize was WotC provided trip voucher.  No money, no moxen.  Nothing out of Rob's pocket.  Yet he charges $20.  This was a Constructed event, mind you.  Ray, on the other hand, the patron saint of TOs, provides well over $3000 in prizes at Waterbury for the same entry fee.  They were also pretty awful with the rules.  At one point, I was talking to my opponent about Extended.  He remarked that he was sad that Mana Severance was banned.  I told him it wasn't, but he did not believe me.  So I bet him $5 it was not banned and we looked to the judge's for advice.  NOT ONE JUDGE out 5 could tell us if Mana Severance was banned.  I know this was a Block event, but the B&R list should be something every judge knows cold.  And there were level 3-4 judges there.  It was a disgrace.  Finally, Rob would chastise and scold the crowd of players.  Before each round he would announce rules and upcoming events.  If people talked during the "commercials" he would stop talking, purse his lips and put his hands on his hips, waiting impatiently for us to quiet down.  Eventually he threatened to have the judges kick people out for talking.  This is insane.  He needs to shut the fuck up, drop the commercials, stop being a little bitch, and just let me fucking play my Magical cards.  If he would have kicked me out and touched me as I was escorted from the location I would have called the cops for battery.  That is how much a prick he was being.  This does not include other errors like miscounting my lands on my registration sheet, not once but twice.  It was intolerable.

I put this out there as a marker.  As Vintage grows we need to avoid the YMG PTQ trap.  We need to encourage good, collegial play and insist on competent judges and wizard TOs like Ray.  This is what makes Vintage great, aside from the cardpool.  And we need to keep this in mind as we go forward.

[Mykeatog]

Words have not been better spoken on the matter.

[Razvan]

My Lord, it's like in highschool. Getting detention for talking. What's next, chewing gum? God knows you can't bring food and drink in the gaming room.

I agree fully, I think that is one of the main differences between Type 1 tourneys and anything else, especially block and T2, the attitude of the people participating. I know the stakes are a bit greater for Block and T2, since winning the Worlds is quite an accomplishment, but that doesn't excuse this gulag mentality and expendable players sort of attitude. Tony, forget calling the cops for battery, some battery should have been done on the TO's...

As for the cards and format themselves... well, first of all, how did you make that list? Did you pull some Sylvan analysis on it?

And it's by definition true, no argument, but I wonder if that's the point? There have been a lot of blocks so far (10 or so?), so translated, think if Vintage includes more than 550 playable cards at any one time so far? I don't have the stats, but I am willing to wager that it's not quite that high. Nobody will play with weak cards, even in block. I am not sure that it's one of the reasons block sucks. I can't put forth another reason, but as it's said, it's easier to criticize than to produce .

[LoA]

That sounds terrible.  I have not-so-fond memories of stopping in YMG when I was living in Davis and having store owners/employees give me dirty looks because I wasn't playing Type 2 and therefore must be scouting their tech.  Which, even with various rooms from which to choose, they discussed in the main public room.  And the prices are insane.

And it's by definition true, no argument, but I wonder if that's the point? There have been a lot of blocks so far (10 or so?), so translated, think if Vintage includes more than 550 playable cards at any one time so far? I don't have the stats, but I am willing to wager that it's not quite that high. Nobody will play with weak cards, even in block. I am not sure that it's one of the reasons block sucks. I can't put forth another reason, but as it's said, it's easier to criticize than to produce.

This doesn't make a lot of sense.  No format has ever had 550 playable cards in it (insert joke about Urza's block).  Type 1 has lots more playable cards at any given time than any other format does at any given time--that's the strength of the format.  You're spot on that nobody will play with weak cards, but there's no shortage of powerful cards to choose from in Type 1.

[BWM]

Is there anybody else who found that apparently there are 56 playable cards in T2 (not counting basic lands), while there are a grand total of 55 cards in T1 that the DCI figured where too good to use more than once (I didn't count the banned cards)

[dandan]

Since when have you been only been able to use Ancestral once?

It is fair to say that some of the other 55 cards would never be used even if unrestricted. I think we are being unfair comparing Block (the format with the smallest cardpool) with the format with the biggest cardpool (of course it should be even bigger - allow PORTAL now!).

As for some of the stereotypes floating around in this thread, we should try to avoid doing stuff like that. Remember the average age of Type 2 players is probably a few years younger than us Type 1 guys (especially with me pushing the average waaaaaaaay up) so we should be more mature and have better developed cleaning routines.  As an ex-teacher I think I can say that being nice is good, but sometimes acting like a Nazi gets people in line.

[iamfishman]

Ray, on the other hand, the patron saint of TOs, provides well over $3000 in prizes at Waterbury for the same entry fee.  They were also pretty awful with the rules.  

...

We need to encourage good, collegial play and insist on competent judges and wizard TOs like Ray.  This is what makes Vintage great, aside from the cardpool.

 
Blush

[Razvan]

And it's by definition true, no argument, but I wonder if that's the point? There have been a lot of blocks so far (10 or so?), so translated, think if Vintage includes more than 550 playable cards at any one time so far? I don't have the stats, but I am willing to wager that it's not quite that high. Nobody will play with weak cards, even in block. I am not sure that it's one of the reasons block sucks. I can't put forth another reason, but as it's said, it's easier to criticize than to produce.

This doesn't make a lot of sense.  No format has ever had 550 playable cards in it (insert joke about Urza's block).  Type 1 has lots more playable cards at any given time than any other format does at any given time--that's the strength of the format.  You're spot on that nobody will play with weak cards, but there's no shortage of powerful cards to choose from in Type 1.

No, that's not what I meant. I thought one of Ric's points was that only 55 cards are playable in block, and that makes it ad.

Proportionally, since there were about 10 blocks in magic so far (more or less, and it might change if you cound pre-ice age), I would guess that 550 playable cards in all of Vintage (which includes all blocks) would be a norm, or a lowball figure. But the actual number is much lower, thus proportionally, Vintage as a whole is not as good a collection as Mirrodin, if same logic would apply.

And if this doesn't make sense, it's my fault, because I explain like crap today for some reason...

[jpmeyer]

I normally really like Standard, but I don't think I've met a single person that's liked Mirrodin block.

I think one of the problems, espescially that I've drafted in Limited, is that in recent sets, while the reward for skill level has gone up, the reward for luck has gone up a lot as well.  For instance, back in say, Masques, if you worked hard to cut off black pack one, you'd be ensured to get the good black cards in Nemesis because your opponent wouldn'tve gotten to get any good black cards back in Masques.  In Mirrodin, if your opponent isn't knowledgable of the different deck archetypes, he might take a card that you should be getting because you cut off that archetype.  But since he doesn't know that you cut off the archetype and since he can still play the card in his deck because it's an artifact, this sort of subtlty wouldn't get recognized unless you were in say, day two or three at a Pro Tour.

And then there's the morph mishmash in Onslaught and the random jumping into black in Torment.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I definitely get why your recent experience in Boston sucked, but what were you recommending about Vintage?  That we go to Ray's tournaments and act like Kerz?

the reward for skill level has gone up, the reward for luck has gone up a lot as well

What third piece of the pie am I missing, or did the relative levels of skill and luck remain constant?

[jpmeyer]

For instance, there have been tons of bombs in Onslaught in every rarity, making the reward for getting lucky increased.  Some guy can just open Sparksmith or Rorix Bladewing or something and just win.  But there's also a lot of skill involved in say, being able to read your opponent so you can guess whether that morph is say, Zombie Cutthroat or just a random off-color one that he put in to have enough creatures.

If you take Mirrodin, since you CAN play just about any card because of artifacts, mana fixers, whatever, it increases the skill level in terms of choosing the correct card.  Before, you it would be really easy to decide what to pick--these three suck, these four I'll never be able to cast, so I should take this one.  Now, you might see say, one or two cards that would be horrible in your deck (maybe say, a Nim or an uncastable card,) but then there would be like 2 on-color cards and a few artifacts, making your choices a lot harder.  But on the other hand, say you're drafting a black/blue artifact deck and you really need a [card]Slagwurm Armor[/card] so all your x/1 Nims won't die.  You might be signalling that you're playing this deck by cutting off Nims and Affinity cards and whatever, but that person next to you might take the Slagwurm armor just because he's a bad player and thinks that he could use it in his deck simply because it's an artifact.

In Type 1-speak, it's like how a deck like Death Long rewards lots of practice and whatnot, but a trained monkey can win if they get those LED/Wish hands.

[Nameless]

A trained monkey can play this deck...

Can somebody get a trained monkey in here?  I'm getting my ass kicked!

[Vegeta2711]

So did I miss the part where you talk about how this affected Vintage or what?

All I read was a lot of complaints about Block right now, which pretty much everyone is having. Something about not having intellgent or intresting people there, even though you originally met Kerz and Jacob through the boards to begin with.

First the event cost $20. This is insane. The prize was WotC provided trip voucher. No money, no moxen. Nothing out of Rob's pocket. Yet he charges $20.

It's always cost 15-25 dollars, at least for every PTQ I've ever been to in Cali, that's just how it is. And as far as I know my friends in NJ and NY tell me it costs inbetween that much as well.  Also, once again, many players have bitched about the prize support to WOTC before, nothing new. ;P Though that is a bit stingy, most places throw in a few boxes to help with prize splits and such.

In Vintage, as people have said in other threads, prize structures are seriously becoming warped and the players are expecting too much.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Proportionally, since there were about 10 blocks in magic so far (more or less, and it might change if you cound pre-ice age), I would guess that 550 playable cards in all of Vintage (which includes all blocks) would be a norm, or a lowball figure. But the actual number is much lower, thus proportionally, Vintage as a whole is not as good a collection as Mirrodin, if same logic would apply.

This does not, in fact, make any sense. :P  The issue is that a Constructed environment needs a certain number of distinct cardnames in active use (we haven't figured out just where this is, and of course there are other factors like how many decks these cards form) in order to feel "diverse" or interesting for most people, and this has nothing to do with the precise percent of the cardpool that is being used. It is an absolute number, not a proportionally-increasing one.

Re: "Where's the Vintage?"

When I read Tony's post, I took it as a commentary on things to watch out for in our own scene. Recognizing how much friendlier and more maturely things generally are in Type One as opposed to other formats is key to making sure it stays that way. If we are not a self-policing community, things could change very fast.