[Discussion-Strategy Issues] Mono Blue- Chalice or No?

[Kerz]

Recently, Mono U has been popping up as extremely popular in various forms. One of the few but very important choices you have to make when building Mono U is whether to include Chalice of the Void or not.

It is really solid in the deck due to the near complete absence of 1-casting cost cards (only Ancestral and Sol Ring), but in order to fit it you must cut a few "hard" counters. The chaliced versions usually play 12-13 counterspells, while non-chaliced play 15-17.

Chalice for 1 is absolutely insane in this format..
It stops:

10 Cards pre-sb in 4cc
17 Cards in Belcher
13 Cards in Control Slaver
7 Cards in Dragon
8 Cards in FCG
8 Cards in GAT
9 Cards in Hulk
16 Cards in LongDeath
18 Cards in TPS
7 Cards in Stax

(Depending on decklists)

Also, Chalicing for 0 can complement the landscrew strategy of the deck.

The downside to Chalice is that it has poor synergy with Powder Keg, in addition to forcing the hard counter number down.

What is optimal? What are your opinions?

EDIT: I realize Kevin Cron has a similar thread over on SCG. This one is a bit different, so i'll let it roll.

[Kowal]

Occasionally chalice has good synergy with Powder Keg.  That is, occasionally I set chalices at numbers that aren't zero or one, and I want to get rid of them so I can cast my shit again.  That's rare though, so I'll let it slide.  :p

Really though, there's no excuse not to run Chalice right now.  The only times I don't like it are in the mirror, and even then, I left mine in against Scott Limoges at Endicott because he ran Brainstorm and more artifact accelerant.

[Smmenen]

As the person responsible for reviving this archetype and the first to discover and use Chalices in mono blue, I think the answer is neither.

Anyone who has read my article on mono blue reintroducing the archetype knows that I think chalices are amazing.  

However, they are extremely difficult to gauge their effectiveness unless
1) your opponent explains how badly they have screwed them over
2) you know your opponents hand

Chalices are huge against combo, gro, and Workshop Prison.  I advised that Kowal play Chalices for Waterbury simply to change the deck up and shift expectations.  Now thta expectations have adjusted accordingly, I feel that the deck should continue to morph in order to keep those expectations unstable.  Perhaps the archtype should be closer now to what Scott Limoges played... although I would feel comfortable playing what I played at Gencon minus the 4th B2B, +1 Counterspell inthe maindeck.  Chalices are amazing, but once they are anticipated, they lose their luster.

[Machinus]

Chalice for one gives the blue deck a huge advantage if it goes down early. Against aggro or underpowered decks, which you WILL face unless you are David Allen, chalice is incredible. Against the rest of the field, it gives you smaller but still very useful advantages. Brainstorm, Welder, Duress...Kerz wrote the numbers in the first post. Chalice is colorless which means you can always drop it, unless you keep a dumb hand.

To address the points Steve has made, I think if you don't maindeck chalice, you should strongly consider running them in the side to bring in against decks with more 1cc slots filled. In all but the highest quality environments, chalice will do more for you than four additional counters.

The only problems I can see with chalice are having extras in your hand, and the conflict with powder keg. Keg is useful for cleaning up board problems that your counters were not able to handle. However, chalice can deal with enough cards in your opponents deck that the threats they have left can be dealt with by your counters. The issue here, then, is that if you run chalice, you have to decide if you want to keep the kegs or try some expensive/conditional removal instead. I think that the answer to this question depends on the kind of threats you expect to face. For very large tournaments, a small amount of general removal is needed maindeck, but more expensive cards like old man or control magic can be used in the side to really deal with problems.

[Wollblad]

Chalices are huge against ... Workshop Prison.

They are? Never noticed. Workshop prison runs Chailce them selfe and are hurt really bad only by chalice for 3, that is 6 mana in your main phase. OK, for zero turn one given that they don't have Workshop or you have strip or Waste. I would say playable against Workshop Prison, but far from huge. Actually, playing Stax I often fear Powder Keg much more than Chalice. Thing here is also the mana denial aspect of the deck. Chalice for zero is great if Mono U begins, but you cannot expect to begin all matches, thus Chalice will be far worse from that aspect in half of the matches. Powder Keg on the other hand can always clear moxen even if Mono U does not begin. If not expecting huge amount of storm based combo and/or Belcher, I would go for Powder Keg in main and Chalice in sideboard.

[wuaffiliate]

Chalice for zero/one is great vs shop decks. You either stop early brokeness, or Welders. Stoping either of those makes winning much easier.

[Gabethebabe]

Chalice for zero/one is great vs shop decks. You either stop early brokeness, or Welders. Stoping either of those makes winning much easier.

and besides that gives you an additional permanent to sac/tap instead of your precious Islands.
How many times have you been 1 mana short to be able to drop your Energy Flux?

[Wollblad]

and besides that gives you an additional permanent to sac/tap instead of your precious Islands.
How many times have you been 1 mana short to be able to drop your Energy Flux?

So you keep Chalice and side in Energy Flux?

[dicemanx]

and besides that gives you an additional permanent to sac/tap instead of your precious Islands.
How many times have you been 1 mana short to be able to drop your Energy Flux?

So you keep Chalice and side in Energy Flux?

Why not? Flux is almost game over vs Stax, so the lack of synergy is inconsequential.

[Toad]

Chalice will act as a delaying tool, making winning harder for Workshop Prison.   If they don't have Moxens to tap / sac to Tangle Wire and Smokestack and to accelerate them (Stax does not always have Workshop in hand), you can easily get past turn 3 thanks to Chalice and then BAM! you drop Energy Flux and after that you don't really care much if you have to let your Chalice die or to pay the upkeep, since you cannot really lose anymore.

Chalice for 1 is also a strong play because Welder is probably their best weapon against Mono Blue. "Oh shit, you just countered my Mox".