[Deck] Tank

[Robert the Swordsman]

First and foremost, I'd like to apologize for my past actions when it came to posting a deck. I realize the mistakes I made with "Politics", both in the way I built it and especially in the way I presented it. Looking back, I feel rather foolish.

Won't happen again.

In any case, I've been working on this deck for almost eight months; not posting too much about it was my way of atoning for previous lameness on my part, but I have played it a ton and to a rather successful end so far, so I believe that this is at least somewhat legitimate.

Also, I'd like to apologize for the name. I can't think of anything. I was right on the money the last two times, I think, but unfortunately, nothing is coming to mind for this one. Tragic.

In Maine, right before I moved out West, I made Top 8 with the deck but lost in the first round of that to Meddling Mage from TMD with Control Slaver. Since moving, I played in a small tournament at Gems in La Mirada, missing Top 8 by just a bit, played it in Worlds in San Fransisco and went 3-3 before I finally dropped (one of the match losses was a bit unfortunate, but that's another matter entirely), and today I made Top 8 in a small tournament in Ventura. Again, unfortunately, I lost in the first round of the Top 8, this time to a Tendrils-based deck.

What I can conclude from this is that the deck is at least reasonable, but just isn't amazing yet.

Here it is:

Maindeck:
4 Exalted Angel
4 Juggernaut

4 Duress
4 Wasteland
3 Chains of Mephistopheles (proxies)
1 Mind Twist
1 Strip Mine

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
2 Vindicate
1 Balance

4 Night's Whisper
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scrubland
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Plains
3 Swamp
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard:
4 Disenchant
4 Dust to Dust
3 Planar Void
2 Rule of Law
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

(Please note: The sideboard is almost entirely provisional. While some of the cards aren't so bad, I realize that it's not very good overall, and it is that way due to me racing to finish it at Worlds. I apologize.)

Card choices:

Chains of Mephistproxieness: These are a rather new addition that was first implemented at the Worlds tournament. I came to realize that I was having a real problem with blue-based control decks. For example, if they went first, played a land, passed the turn, I played a land and pass the turn, and they cast an EOT Brainstorm, I felt like I'd already lost that game. I like this card because, once cast, the opponent and I will generally have the same number of cards in our hands as eachother, making for a much safer game on my side of the table. I like it so far.

Ancient Tomb: When I first began to play this deck, I was astonished with Ancient Tomb. Angel + Tomb = combo. It always ended up throwing an Exalted on the table by turn 2. After playing the deck for a good amount of time, I quickly came to realize that this was not always the case, however the Tomb is still very useful. Excellent with Angel, Disk, Juggernaut, a big Mind Twist / Yawg's Will. Very good.

Nevinyrral's Disk: Recently cut down to three in favor of a fourth Swords to Plowshares (also, a reason one was cut was due to the increased permanent count that came about when Chains was added), it's been pretty great. Usually with one of these and an Ancient Tomb, I can power my way out of a Stax lock relatively early. No regrets with this card yet.

Night's Whisper: This card made me want to play Magic again. It is SO good.

Some notes and uncertainties:

So far, I'm not sure if I've balanced out all the numbers correctly. For example, with Chains / Disk / Night's Whisper, I'm not sure if 3 / 4 / 4 is right. Again, that's only an example, but you see what I mean.

Would it make sense to run Null Rod or something similar in the board for Tendrils-based decks? I thought I had a good game against that sort of thing, but today has proven otherwise. Rule of Law is effective, but this guy ran two maindecked Disenchants (though I know that's not typical), and even so it is very slow.

I'm not sure about Juggernaut. If it comes down turns 1-3, it is an excellent offense. However, if topdecked / cast late game, it just seems too out in the open, too easy to deal with. I've one a few games against 'Slaver due to the "must attack" clause, but in most cases that only ends up having him run into a Titan / Pentavite / etc. I can't think of many other alternatives, though. The one I'm considering is Decree of Justice. I don't like having it go to very late game, drawing a Juggernaut off the top, and not knowing whether to play it and have it countered or to wait for the Duress and risk them drawing even more counter-magic. Still, Decree is not a good early game card at all, and Juggernaut has won me plenty of games due to its speed. Are there other alternatives that I'm not seeing, or is one of these cards plainly better than the other?

The deck comes off as being very suicidal. With three Tombs, three Whispers, and four Fetches (and usually some mana burn), you often end up being in between 12 and 8 life by the time you start winning. This can be a real problem against TNT, Madness, FCG, Fish or random Sligh decks. Angel can be enough sometimes, but when they have ways of countering / getting it off the table, you find that the game may not have gone on as long as it could've due to massive self-inflicted damage

Alright, that's all. Any feedback at all would be greatly appreciated, and I promise to consider absolutely everything (if you recall, I've been rather closed-minded in the past, like I said, that shall not be the case any more).

Thank you very much.

EDIT: A couple of things added to the "Notes" section.

[Trollstorm]

Usually when I have problems with random sligh decks it's because I'm not expecting them, and I'm playing 4cc with 2 Angels and 1 Decree isntead of 3 Angels. While they do okay against certain decks, they roll over and die to good decks like anything with Tinker + C-Lo, FCG, and Storm-Based Combo. I can imagine Death Long losing to a Wheel'd fireblast or something stupid like that.

I would like to see some matchup analyses for this deck, however.

[policehq]

I don't like the dissynergy you have going between Chains of Mephistopheles, Nevinnyral's Disk, and Night's Whisper. I don't really know how to fix it, unless you found another form of disruption (Sphere of Resistance maybe).

I think Mana Vault has good synnergy with disk and all the expensive stuff in the deck. You save yourself from life-loss by popping a disk.

Barry

[jCoKn]

Is it just me or is this deck begging for a crucible? Or at least a couple in the board?

It fits the mana curve, you're running 5 strips + fetches, and you have lots of acceleration. If you want to improve your game against control, here's how. I would like to think that they'd do better on the whole than chains of meph because A) chains shuts down YOUR draw as well and B) with disks and vindicates floating around, you can essentially get rid of ALL his mana sources (moxes, basics, etc.)

I like the idea, keep working at it... just trying to give some input.

[JamesPr]

Have you thought about adding green to the deck for pernicious deed, so you can actually control what's being blown up?  Juggernaut isn't really that good, you have to cut him.  He dies to bolts, and that's not a good thing.  If you add green like I suggested you could subsitute him for River Boa which is smaller but more versatile.

[Devoted]

I must agree with you and add that i think DoJ would be  a great choice for the deck at least in small numbers. I think this because its cycling and with that its hard to couter. what i know its just fish who can counter the cycle with stifle maindecked.

Is it just me or is this deck begging for a crucible? Or at least a couple in the board?

It fits the mana curve, you're running 5 strips + fetches, and you have lots of acceleration. If you want to improve your game against control, here's how. I would like to think that they'd do better on the whole than chains of meph because A) chains shuts down YOUR draw as well and B) with disks and vindicates floating around, you can essentially get rid of ALL his mana sources (moxes, basics, etc.)

I like the idea, keep working at it... just trying to give some input.

[Trollstorm]

If you add green like I suggested you could subsitute him for River Boa which is smaller but more versatile.

Or hell, he could insead play spiritmonger!

[LotusHead]

I'm pretty sure Robert the Swordsman is trying to keep his deck black and white only.

Argothian Find is a niftly litte instant for W that lets you get back an artifact or enchantment from your grave, say a dead/countered Jug or a fresh new disk, or a spent Lotus. Also, it can give you an additional God Hand possibility "Lotus, Find, Land, Angel"

Could replace a Disk as you already have 4 reset cards (Balance and 3 Disks could be Balance, 2 Disks and Find (Disk #3 or Jugg #5).)

[Robert the Swordsman]

Thanks for the quick replies.

Let's roll.

Trollstorm: I shoulda' put at least a little bit of matchup analysis in the original post. I apologize. Here goes.

Control Slaver: I have not tested this since the addition of Chains (which is unfortunately the case in most of these analyses, actually, sorry), but in the past it was a problem. The addition of the fourth Swords had helped, and Disk was a great help, but I had the same problems: it was a blue-based control deck with a lot of counter and card draw (a. k. a. every good deck), and I could only win with very early beats and some Duress.

FCG: I usually end up doing pretty well in this matchup. 4 Swords, 3 Disks, 4 Angels are usually enough to do it, especially if combined with an early Duress to take the Food Chains. Then again, FCG does have blinding speed at times, so this matchup, I believe, is favorable, but no guaranteed win.

Fish: I think I have a decent game against Fish. Null Rod can shut off Disk, leaving me with limited removal, and Gorilla Shaman can really be a problem, but Chains actually improved this matchup, and a resolved Angel can most often take it all the way anyway.

'Tog: Unfortunately, U/B/g 'Tog is very tough to beat. GAT, on the other hand, I think I stand a good chance against. I haven't tested against Hulk with Chains, but I have been able to get a few games against GAT post-Chains build, and I've done pretty well. In fact, losing to Hulk so much is what made me want to toss the Chains in the maindeck. It's a shame I haven't gotten to play a game against it, yet.

4CC: Easily my worst matchup. Disk doesn't do much, Swords doesn't do much, and they have that whole counter stuff / draw cards thing that messes me up. I haven't tested against this deck since Chains were added, but I know that is has been an auto-loss in the past. I could sneak out a win here and there with a turn 1-2 Juggernaut, maybe, but rarely. Very rarely.

Workshop.dec: In the case of Stax / Stacker (artifact-aggro), I tend to be able to win if I can cast that first Disk due to the basic-land abundance. Unfortunately, if that Disk doesn't come, I tend to lose pretty quick, and I don't believe that the addition of Chains will help me in this. I haven't tested this against TnT ever, I don't think. That's strange, now that I think about it, almost eight months and not a single game against TnT. Sorry.

I hope that helps. Sorry to say, but I really don't like posting matchup analyses; if I ever state that I have a good matchup versus a particular deck, I feel like I'm being overconfident and arrogant, so I'm trying to keep as humble as possible. What I said above is how I really feel about the given matchups.

Thank you.

policehq: I agree. That had been obvious since Chains had been added, but so far it really hasn't worked out so bad. Because I'm running three Disks and three Chains, if I ever need to pop the Disk and knock out a Chains, I'll usually have another in my hand at the time. Night's Whisper is alright because it usually will come down before the Chains (that depends on what I'm playing against, usually), and even still, mid to late game, I don't mind pitching cards to draw some. At that point, I'll usually have something dead (in that case, an extra Chains, an extra land, etc.). Unfortunately, four Whispers still doesn't seem like enough.

I was considering Mana Vault, but since I cut a Disk, I'm not so sure that I need it quite as badly any longer. We'll see if I end up being mana-hungry as time goes on.

jCoKn: I really, really like Crucible. I'm well aware that I'm not the only one, but I think that fitting in at least two would be a really good thing. What do you think I should pull for them, though? I struggled pretty hard to  fit those Chains in, but maybe it's not really as hard as I'm making it out to be and something obvious should go.

In any case, thank you for the suggestion and compliment.

JamesPr: I had a deck like this with green in it, once. Unfortunately, if I added River Boa, I'd have to add White Knights, Black Knights, Rancors, Sylvan Libraries...

Devoted: Yeah, Decree is really a great card. It's my first choice as an alternative win condition, mostly because of the uncounterable factor. Still, it is really not very good in the early game, which is when Juggernaut shines. As I play more games, we'll see which would be more advantageous.

LotusHead: You're correct, thank you. Keeping the deck two colors makes for a very, very smooth mana base, one that I enjoy playing with.

I assume you meant "Argivian" Find (), which isn't too bad of a card, actually. The card itself would always be pretty useful, it'd seem, and a dead Juggernaut or a Disk might not be a bad thing to dig up late game. If I end up adding Crucibles, I think this may find a place in the deck, but to be honest, for right now, I'm not sure that this is exactly what I need.

Thank you, though.

--

Alright, again, thanks to everyone who was kind enough to leave a comment. As I said earlier, all input is greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much.

[Royal Ass.]

Here are some random suggestions:

-3 chains of M.
- 1 Disk
-1 Mana crypt
-1 ancient tomb

+ 4 dark ritual
+ 2 skeletal scrying

now you can draw on par with keeper.

I think you should play maindeck crucible or at least put two in the side.  this will help with control as well.  take out one juggernaught and one angel for the 2 crucibles.  

also to help stifle control countering and drawing you could play defence grid.  the only spell you would be casting during the opponents turn is swords.  this would shut down opposing counters and make them play their draw spells during their own turn.

i think ritual would be a good addition to this deck because you can use it to cast both of your kill conditions and if you played scrying it has good synergy with that and with yawg will.  it will also net you first turn duress, nights whisper which is tech.

cool deck.  i always commend those who use their own creativity over net decking.  

special props for dust to dust in the board.  that card rocks.

[Sammy]

Hey, I really like the deck, but I also really disliek the Disk I dont know how well it works, but it just seems really anti-synergystic (I think thats the right wording).

So heres what I'm thinking:

-3 Disk
-2 Swords

+3 Crucible
Add the swords to the board, and maindeck 2 Disenchants.

And I also think you should drop some Juggies for some DoJs.

So maybe -2 +2 or probably -1 +1 cause 2 may be too much.

[Robert the Swordsman]

Thank you once again for the responses.

Royal Ass.: Thank you for the compliments.

In any case, I did originally have Scryings in the deck. Unfortunately, what ended up happening is that by the time I could do a reasonable Scrying (i. e. 3-5 cards), the actual loss of life would be adding up, especially when you tap an Ancient Tomb to fuel the Scrying.

I'm not sure if losing too much life is a legitimate excuse for not running an excellent card, but it did prove troublesome. In addition, I added Yawgmoth's Will after Scrying was removed, and those two don't tend to interact so well.

While Ritual would be interesting, I'm not sure that it's worth devoting slots to. Clearly, late game, it doesn't have too much of a use, and while it could make for some interesting early-game plays, I tend to have enough mana to get the job done anyhow. I'll play around with it and see how it goes.

I'm not sure if I like Defense Grid over Chains. Defense Grid can become an absolutely dead card, having no purpose in a game, but Chains can find even a use pretty much anywhere (against Memory Jar, for example).

In any case, thank you again.

Sammy: To be honest, recently Disk really hasn't been pulling its weight for me. Maybe it's due to a metagame shift from artifacts to more blue-based control, but it really just hasn't been very effective in recent weeks. Perhaps it's time for a change.

They could be moved to the board in favor of Crucibles, but I'm not sure if I want to play Disenchants main (I have a couple of Vindicates which tend to do the trick).

As soon as I can find some people to play against, I'll do some serious testing of Juggernaut versus Decree. I'd definitely be going all or none, though, no two and two stuff. Consistency is a good thing.

Thank you for the suggestions.

--

Alright, once more, I appreciate the replies.

Thank you very much.

[Pern]

To be honest, recently Disk really hasn't been pulling its weight for me.

Is that because it doesn't do enough,
or because it blows up your own stuff?
Have you considered Oblivion Stone?

[Plognark]

Hmm, for what it's worth, this is what i'd start off doing:

4 Exalted Angel
-4 Juggernaut
+2 DoJ

4 Duress
4 Wasteland
-3 Chains of Mephistopheles (proxies)
*note: I cut these because you seem to like nights whisper, and it does shite once you get one of these babies out.
+2 Skeletal Scrying

1 Mind Twist
1 Strip Mine

3 Swords to Plowshares (-1)

-3 Nevinyrral's Disk
+4 Dark Ritual

2 Vindicate
1 Balance

4 Night's Whisper
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

+2 Crucible of worlds

4 Flooded Strand
4 Scrubland
3 Ancient Tomb (-1....too much hurt on yourself, and the dark rit. will pick up some mana slack)
3 Plains
3 Swamp
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

+2 Cranial Extraction (and you could find room for a third) from CoK. Cranial extraction might give this deck a nice edge.


Sideboard:
4 Disenchant
4 Dust to Dust
3 Planar Void
2 Rule of Law
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I'll leave the SB alone, although i'd suggest you can the Nevi disk. Also, with skeletal scrying, planar void = non synergy, although you could swap them for each other if needed. Instead of planar void withered wretch might fill the same roll.

Another idea is to replace the juggies with hippies. Hypnotic specter off a dark ritual or black lotus first turn hurts, especially if they can't force it or kill it right away.

I would actually not get rid of the swords at all (although one can move to SB). They give you some good ammunition against welder decks and against a tinker -> D. Colossus first turn. They can even help if you run into fish by nailing their curious critters.

Just some thoughts, i'm trying not to be a dick and tell you to "run something else" but work with what your ideas are  

You might think about Volrath's stronghold as well. It's a land that recurs critters to the top of your deck, and with crucibles in the deck, you can easily pop them back even against opposing crucible/wastes and get an angel back.

[Robert the Swordsman]

Thanks again for the responses.

Pernicious Dude: Well, just very, very recently, it hasn't been too useful due to it not blowing up too much stuff. In the control matchup, it really is a rather dead card. Maybe it's just 'cuz I haven't been playing against too many Workshop decks in recent weeks.

Oblivion Stone is interesting because it could be cast turn two with a Tomb, but if I'm playing against a 'Shop deck, that five mana could end up being hard to come by. Interesting, though. Perhaps I'll give it a shot for a test-run or two.

Thanks , Dan.

Plognark: Is Cranial Extraction really that good? It just doesn't seem as powerful as people are making it out to be, I think. Maybe it truly is awesome, but I just don't see it.

In any case, cutting both Disks and Chains is actually kind of intriguing. When I thought about it for a bit, it was just kinda' like: BAM, seven open slots.

Since the beginning, I've been kinda' anti-Ritual due to the fact that non-permanent mana-sources are rather scary in the face of Wastelands. What I don't want to happen is: I play a Strand, sacrifice it to grab a Scrubland, cast Ritual, face-down Angel / Night's Whisper / etc., and they Waste the dual next turn. The only situation where that would be cool is if I Ritual-ed out a Crucible. If I end up playing Crucibles (which is likely), I will definitely test out Rituals.

Night's Whisper isn't always so dead with a Chains in play. You can usually get rid of some extra stuff, either another Chains or maybe a Disk if you're up against control, and extra mana source, so on. Scrying, though, would not be so hot under a Chains. You'd run out of stuff to throw away pretty quick.

I did some testing with Decree of Justice. It actually did pretty well, but in most situations where I benefited from it, it would have been just as useful as a Juggernaut. More testing is required.

Overall, you've given me a lot to consider. After I do some testing, I'll get back to you on how it all worked out.

--

Once more, thank you very much.

[TrixR4Kidz]

Don't add dark ritual your not playing combo and your not playing sui-black it's as simple as that.  Wouldn't you rather have cards in the deck that actually do things for more then a turn?  I don't like the idea of ritual in this deck at all.

[serracollector]

Wow, lots of help, well I figure I will throw in my 2 cents as well:

Dark Ritual- A Great card.  From first turn Morphs/Juggies to late game scrying for a lot or for a fat DoJ or just to make Y. Win that much better.  Ritual is some good.

DoJ-a great card, a card drawer (albiet limited), a game winner, and an instant blocker (love it when they attack with their welder and you chump with a 1?1 instant token)  Also with a Y.Win and Dark rituals or just a handful of rituals you can make a few 4/4 angel tokens for mad beats.

Skeletal Scrying-Between sac lands, dark rituals, tutors, vindicates and Nev's Disk you don't have enough in your grave to make this worth while?  I don't understand, scrying is good.  Play it maindeck, sideboard the chains.  

Juggernaut-  if your going to drop 2 juggies for DoJ, and add Dark Rituals, and your going for fast beats, and you play disk to blow up the board anyways, then play Phyrexian Negator.  Its 3 mana, its got trample, and it doesn't die to bolt (unless u got less than 3 perms) plus only fish plays fire/ice and occasional bolt, so I really wouldn't worry about it.  First turn Negator would scare me a lot more than a first turn juggie as more ppl are playing maindeck artifact hate more than maindeck critter hate, which as I said the only 2 are fire/ice and StP/Balance.

Anyways, my 2 cents.  Good luck, have fun.

[Robert the Swordsman]

Thank you yet again for your responses.

TrixR4Kids: The first anti-Ritual sentiment other than my own. Even still, with all the support its been receiving, maybe it really is worth a shot.

Your points are noted, though, and I kinda' felt the same way anyhow.

serracollector: If I were to play Rituals, Scrying might not actually be so bad. Like I was saying before, by the time I could cast a worthwhile Scrying, I'd be killing myself ('cuz I'd usually be tapping a Tomb for it and be in between 8-12 life anyway).

Also, too often do I forget that Decree actually makes Angels. I'll have to keep that in mind.

Thanks for the suggestions.

--

I guess the overall concensus is:

Chains of Mephistopheles should not be maindecked.
Juggernaut should not be played.
Nevinyrral's Disk should not be maindecked and may or may not be needed in the board.
Decree of Justice (at least two) should be maindecked.
Dark Rituals should be maindecked.
Crucible of Worlds should be maindecked and would take the place of Chains in the ways of control.
Skeletal Scrying should be maindecked.

That's the message I'm getting, which I'm not entirely opposed to. Still, like I said before, I'm really skeptical about those bloody Rituals. I'll definitely do some testing with the above changes (or as many as I can fit / like at once).

Again, thank you very much.