[discussion] so what would 4 fofs do?

[dandan]

I would be genuinely interested in knowing why you think a card that proven itself worthy of restriction by metagame distortion almost entirely because of its card drawing/searching power is suddenly worth considering as suitable for unrestriction at a time when there are a considerable number of already very strong decks that could use both the cards 'drawn' AND the cards put in the graveyard.

[Thug]

When FoF got axed people were playing Suicide and Sligh as aggro decks and combo decks couldn't win against counterwalls at that time.

Right now I can name a few decks that I can only see improve if FoF would be unrestricted and played a lot:

Dragon
TPS
Belcher
(any other combo deck)
Stax
Fish

These decks weren't played (well fish a little bit) at the time FoF got axed, so I can't agree with a simple statement like FoF is meagame distorting, you have to compare the effect it has on certain decks with the current metagame.

The above decks don't give the opponent the time to abuse the card-drawing FoF provides and because these decks equal a huge part of the metagame I don't think unrestricting FoF would be that harmfull.

Yes. unrestricting FoF could and possibly would change the format, but I don't think it will unbalance the format.

Koen

[rozetta]

Thug and Toad have a very valid point. The card was considered distorting back when the general power of decks was piddly compared to now.

Actually, it could be possible to simulate the effects of unrestricted FoF pretty easily. Build a gauntlet of decks allowing unrestricted FoF and play some matches, like what was done with the "Battle of the banned" decks. It probably only takes one afternoon (at the pub). I know there are plenty of decks in the metagame right now, but pick a few that we think would be boosted the most by unrestricted FoF (like control slaver) and decks which generally do well against them (ummm, uhhh, yeah) and see if anything changed.

And now for my token stupid comment:
- unrestrict Black Vise at the same time to balance it out

Talking of which, why _is_ there no 4xFoF, 4xTFK 4xWelder deck in Extended? I mean there are artifact lands which take care of the weld target (or the 8 moxes allowed). OK, so I know nothing about Extended, but to me it seems odd. Is it the lack of duals?

[dandan]

Substitute the word Necropotence for FoF in the above post by Thug and see if it is logical to unrestrict Necropotence.

Many of the decks you post are combo decks. An unrestricted FoF would almost certainly result in more control decks in the field and therefore it would make a metagame that is less attractive to combo decks. Although FoF in itself is not a huge problem for combo, a slew of control decks is. (I accept that combo does not auto-lose to control anymore but it hardly what you want to get paired against if you have combo). Note that FoF increased the chances of a control player finding that second FoW or the sideboard answer to your combo.

Fish is fairly FoF neutral. In theory it costs enough that you should want to see it in an opponents hand. However, it is strong enough that it may be a good enough reason to break a Standstill (during the Fish players EOT) and I'd tend to want to avoid FoF-wielding players if I had Fish. I am however no Perez.

I pointed out that FoF was metagame-distorting. I think that is a fact rather than fiction. It was. Control is still around and giving it more FoFs would almost certainly make it stronger. Seeing a 4cc and Slaver are most certainly up there amongst the best decks, unrestricting FoF would have a major effect.

In short, Fact or Fiction has proven itself to be a problem in the past, it shouldn't have to prove itself to be a problem a second time. I think that cards should only be unrestricted if they are clearly not going to be a problem. They have already been found guilty although they have an appeal procedure. Some past verdicts look somewhat strange now but most people can understand why it got restricted.

[Toad]

Talking of which, why _is_ there no 4xFoF, 4xTFK 4xWelder deck in Extended? I mean there are artifact lands which take care of the weld target (or the 8 moxes allowed). OK, so I know nothing about Extended, but to me it seems odd. Is it the lack of duals?

Probably the fact that every deck has often 8 maindeck ways to kill a Goblin Welder. Red Deck Wins has Grim Lavamancer, Seal of Fire and Volcanic Hammer / Firebolt, The Rock has Pernicious Deed and Smother, Tog has Smother and Diabolic Edict, Fiends variants have Vindicate and Diabolic Edict, etc...

[jpmeyer]

Coming soon:

Would unrestricted Necro distort the metagame?  
Would unrestricted Black Vise destort the metagame?
Would unrestricted Mind Twist distort the metagame? (actually I think I've already seen this one)
Would unrestricted Tolarian Academy distort the metagame?
Would unrestricted YawgWill distort the metagame?

Because the restricted list doesn't have about 8 better candidates for unrestriction?

The likelihood of meeting someone with matches should not be a deciding factor in deciding whether or not you should soak yourself in petrol.

Sorry for the tone but I find it hard to believe this thread exists in this forum. It's not like it is hard to find decent candidates for unrestriction on the restricted list! (f34r Voltaic Key)

Well, the idea was less of "would it" and more of "exactly what would it do?"

[dandan]

FoF wasn't good because everything else was bad, it was good because it was Blue, Instant, splashable, pitchable, gave card advantage, searched very deep, filled your graveyard, increased in power the more powerful the cards in your deck were, gave your opponent a very good chance to make a wrong decision (especially as they often had little idea what else you had in hand) and provided a handy outlet for Mana Drain mana at times. It still is all of the above.

Although it was almost certainly restricted for metagame distortion, it distorted because it was too good, not because it did something wacky that other decks can't handle. Even if it wasn't metagame distorting right now, which is debatable to say the least, in 3 months it could be. Cards shouldn't come off the B&R list because the current metagame might not be warped by then.

Regarding Voltaic Key, SOMEONE still thinks it deserves it place on the B&R list, and I would be interested to know why they think that as I just can't see the Key being any good at all, let alone worth restricting.

[Thug]

Substitute the word Necropotence for FoF in the above post by Thug and see if it is logical to unrestrict Necropotence.

Nope it isn't, cause when you replace them my logic fails, since Necro actaully is fast enough to beat those combo decks. And unrestricting Necro will distort the metagame.

Many of the decks you post are combo decks. An unrestricted FoF would almost certainly result in more control decks in the field and therefore it would make a metagame that is less attractive to combo decks. Although FoF in itself is not a huge problem for combo, a slew of control decks is. (I accept that combo does not auto-lose to control anymore but it hardly what you want to get paired against if you have combo). Note that FoF increased the chances of a control player finding that second FoW or the sideboard answer to your combo.

Actually I'm very happy to get paired against Control with TPS: Control-Slaver and 4cc are favourable matchups, Mono-U is hard but winnable and Tog is somewhere in between.

I think people will move TO combo when we get to see more of those control decks, both Dragon and TPS seem to have more than decent changes agains these decks.

---

I'm not sure if anyone thinks that Voltaic Key should stay restricted, I think that it's still their because of a lack of interest from the ones managing the restricted list. And after all, unrestricting it will most likely have zero effect on the metagame, so It's not the first thing to worry about.

Koen

[ELD]

If you are beating control slaver consistantly with combo that's amazing.  Either you're playing very weak players, or you're the luckiest/greatest player to ever flop a card.

FoF is my card drawing of choice vs many combo decks.  Being able to cast it eot often seals the game.  Sorcery speed draw is too slow.  Scrying is not reliable enough, and doesn't dig deep enough.  Even the powerful intution ak combo is slower than FoF.  FoF abuses mana acceleration like no other card draw.  Turn one eot fof is just amazing.  When you untap you have often won.