old man of the sea in Fish?

[MIZEnhauer]

lately goblin welder has risen in popularty to the point that it is the most played creature in t1.  fish has been playing grim lavamancer for a long while to deal with welders and opposing fish decks.  But is old man of the sea a better choice
GRIM LAVAMANCER
Pros:
lower mana cost
Cons:
requires cards in graveyard
makes you play 2 colors which makes you more suceptible to wastelands
OLD MAN OF THE SEA
Pros:
you can use your opponents welders against them
lets you play mono blue which strengthens your mana base
Cons:
Cost 3 mana instead of 1

Tell me what you guys think

[Malhavoc]

Just a note: the old man costs 1UU, not four mana.

[Plognark]

I tried it, and I can say that more than 3/4 of the time I wished I had a lavamancer instead of an old man.

Not that old man is a bad card, he's just not great in fish. Fish wants speed, and direct damage for either crowd control or kill.

He'd be better in mono U where you can sit back a bit with more counters and play a little more cautiously.

[Mixing Mike]

Lavamancer was the major factor in the Welder.dec vs. Fish matchup.  Having a Lavamancer dealt with any current and future Welders.  I doubt playing Old Man for the same reasons that Lavamancer already took care of isn't necessary.  Lavamancer, in my experience, was the winning factor more times than I can remember.  Having a sure way to deal damage to an opponnet with a Curious critter is some good.

Besides, Old Man doesn't fit the manacurve of fish, and isn't nearly as tempo swinging for you as it is against you.

Also, I don't see how you could ever call Old Man better through your own reasoning....

GRIM LAVAMANCER
Pros:
Lover mana cost
Cons:
requires cards in the graveyard
makes you play 2 colors which makes you more suceptible to wastelands

OLD MAN OF THE SEA
Pros:
you can use your opponents welders against them
Cons:
Cost 3 mana

-The lower the cost the better, as Fish is based on tempo.
-Gay/R is far better than Mono-U Fish is in the metagame right now.  That makes the Wasteland reasoning null and void.  Not to mention bad players will strip your manlands.
-With all the fetching and stripping you do, and Dazing and whatnot, you'll usually have 2 cards to feed the Lavamancer.  It not, it still beats for 1.
-Using their Welder isn't nearly as good as killing it.  Also, by taking their Welder, you morph your 2/3 into a 1/1 for 1UU.  Not very good tempo.

[MIZEnhauer]

i disagree mixing mike
 i think that having an active welder yourself and therefore shutting down their win conditions by preventing them from attacking you, is better than hoping you have a counterspell for every threat that your opponent plays

Also could the deck cut a creature like spiketail hatchling and run both lavanmancers and old man? it definately seems feasible

[HuntedWumpus]

Im not sure if you are going about this in the correct sense. Is it factual information that the creature being trimmed for old man of the sea is necessarily Grim lavamancer. Perhaps if Old Man comes out of the board or even lives in the main the more logical choice is to hit 1-2 other critters and 1 grim lavamancer thus not greatly weakening the deck yet still employing the lavamancer.

In my questionably limited testing old man has show great promise. He is an incredibly savage surprise in the fish mirror and pulls more than his own weight against welders. Personally, I think the creature base for fish needs to be given a serious though before the next major showing. THe options are very diverse . . .

Flying Men
Cloud of Faeries  
Old man of the Sea
Spiketail
Voidmage
Razorfin hunter
Mox Monkey
Lavamancer

 . . . and so on to name the common ones for U/R. I would like to see another real discussion from some of the head authorities in the fish world.

[Jacob Orlove]

This thread is terrible. Closed.