CA Discussion for Newbie Forum

[CaptainPlanet.dec]

Creatures///11
4 Goblin Welder
3 Squee, Goblin Nabob
2 Sundering Titan
1 Duplicant

Card Advantage///22
4 Animate Dead
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Intuition
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Possessed Portal
1 Entomb

Counter///4
4 Force of Will

Mana///23
8 SoLoCryxen
1 Mana Vault
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Shivan Reef
3 Underground River
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass

SB///15
4 Dragon
2 Ambassador
3 Necromancy  
2 Rack and Ruin
4 Sphere of Resistance

The original deck can be found in the Vintage Forum. I give props to Eastman for this great idea.

The basic changes I made were these:

- 1 Squee
- 1 Titan
- 1 Trisk
+ 1 Duplicant
+ 1 Entomb
+ 1 Intution

I found alot of times the Squee's were not needed. Entomb can grab a Squee if I need it, grab a Titan in the yard, a Duplicant, or a Dragon game 2. Duplicant is for the rise in Oath decks. Intution is good both post and pre sideboard.

I also put 4 Sphere in sidebaord because I found that the only hard matchup is fast combo. Sphere stops most dead or atleast slows it enough to let me win first.

The deck has pretty good matchups all around. I found MonoBlue to be a little problem. Any suggestions?

[Elric]

I don't want to sound rude, but you last posted a deck yesterday at 1:00, making this a turn-around of 32 hours.  Eastman's post was up 2 and a half days ago.  Somehow, I really doubt that "this deck has good matchups all around" is something you can determine in a day, unless you test most waking hours.  

Also, your statement on oath decks becoming more common doesn't help things.  If you look at the number of closed threads on Oath decks recently, there are a lot.  Usually, that doesn't translate into the decks anyone should expect to see a lot of at a tournament.  There may be a case for Duplicant, but "the rise in Oath decks" is certainly not it.  More time between starting threads is definitely a good idea.

[CaptainPlanet.dec]

I don't want to sound rude, but you last posted a deck yesterday at 1:00, making this a turn-around of 32 hours.  Eastman's post was up 2 and a half days ago.  Somehow, I really doubt that "this deck has good matchups all around" is something you can determine in a day, unless you test most waking hours.  

Also, your statement on oath decks becoming more common doesn't help things.  If you look at the number of closed threads on Oath decks recently, there are a lot.  Usually, that doesn't translate into the decks anyone should expect to see a lot of at a tournament.  There may be a case for Duplicant, but "the rise in Oath decks" is certainly not it.  More time between starting threads is definitely a good idea.

I've tested this against MonoBlue, STAX, 4CC, Gay/r Fish, and DeathLong. Thats a good sweep of the meta so far. Those are the changes I've found to be important. I'm going to test more.

Oath will become popular because Orchard reopened ideas on a card that is already begging to be broken. Look at some reports, it's every where.

[LotusHead]

To Elric: You are absolutely right.  This newer version may not have been fully tested as it is about 6 minutes old.

However, the idea of using a Duplicant instead of Titan #3 and other minor changes may well be an improvement.

Duplicants are removal, and beatsticks, depending on the manner of their removaling.

Also, some of us can't post questions about Cerebral Assassin (Like the name is worse than SlapJack, the name of MY deck), as it is in Vintage, not open.

This build, and the original (which will probably be tweeked for some time) is probably the next deck I will proxy up for the local non-power people to play with, because it seems fun and broken.  Is it as powerful as 4cc? Probably not, but Dead Welders? Cool!

As far as Cereberal Assassin dealing with graveyard hate, and whatnot, I've been testing Rushing River and Rebuild MAINDECK to deal with that and other hoser stuff (Null Rod, etc). (uh...testing in my other deck with Rushing River etc.)

Anyway, Props to Cereberal Assassin for being a new idea using Possessed Portal.  The card looks so bad on paper, but it DOES say "no one draws anything, unless they have a Tutor or Welder active).  My buddy Adam rocked with the Possessed Portal tech in a sub-par Control Slaver build two months ago (He has my other 2 Drains, for those in the know), and messed people up with it.

This is an idea worth developing.

[CaptainPlanet.dec]

To Elric: You are absolutely right.  This newer version may not have been fully tested as it is about 6 minutes old.

However, the idea of using a Duplicant instead of Titan #3 and other minor changes may well be an improvement.

Duplicants are removal, and beatsticks, depending on the manner of their removaling.

Also, some of us can't post questions about Cerebral Assassin (Like the name is worse than SlapJack, the name of MY deck), as it is in Vintage, not open.

This build, and the original (which will probably be tweeked for some time) is probably the next deck I will proxy up for the local non-power people to play with, because it seems fun and broken.  Is it as powerful as 4cc? Probably not, but Dead Welders? Cool!

As far as Cereberal Assassin dealing with graveyard hate, and whatnot, I've been testing Rushing River and Rebuild MAINDECK to deal with that and other hoser stuff (Null Rod, etc). (uh...testing in my other deck with Rushing River etc.)

Anyway, Props to Cereberal Assassin for being a new idea using Possessed Portal.  The card looks so bad on paper, but it DOES say "no one draws anything, unless they have a Tutor or Welder active).  My buddy Adam rocked with the Possessed Portal tech in a sub-par Control Slaver build two months ago (He has my other 2 Drains, for those in the know), and messed people up with it.

This is an idea worth developing.

You love to stick up for me, huh?

Yes, many of us cannot access posting in Vintage and this was some ideas I had that I tried out. A few people in Vintage mentained the excess 4 Squee that only really works well with Bazaar and Thirst. With an Entomb for a Squee, you can get a Squee, or any other Weldable artifact, or even a WGD. Intuition is just good in both forms of the deck.

[Limbo]

Although the few things you suggest look nice, it does not change the deck enough for a new name. You get to name a deck if you come up with a new core of a deck, changing 3 cards hardly qualifies as that.

Just my 2 cents.

[CaptainPlanet.dec]

Although the few things you suggest look nice, it does not change the deck enough for a new name. You get to name a deck if you come up with a new core of a deck, changing 3 cards hardly qualifies as that.

Just my 2 cents.

I just don't like Cerebral Assassin as a name. I mean....it's too sophisticated. I'm sure if you we're playing a deck called PileOfPoop.dec, you'd change the name too. I wasn't trying to change the name of the deck, just the deck I'm playing.

[VGB]

Anyway, Props to Cereberal Assassin for being a new idea using Possessed Portal.

I believe PP is extremely bad in this deck.  It is extremely random as a Weld target, really only assures a game win with a bouncing Squee and superior board position (read: already winning), and if I am going to Tinker, why not go for Titan and destroy lands and have a huge fat body to play with?  I could much more see this slot as Darksteel Colossus, which is a supreme Tinker target, and gives you a potential extra turn versus Dragon.

My opinion is that 4 x Squee is a bit excessive, and I think people need to experiment more with dropping a slot, especially in a deck with FoW - which is actually a step in the right direction that this list exhibits.  With the deck running Possessed Portal, there is indeed a greater emphasis on getting active Squee, but Squee is highly situational, and generally sucks without a Bazaar on the table.  If you are discarding Squee to Thirst, then you are probably not discarding Welder bait or garnering card advantage in the short term.  From my experience in Bazaar + Welder decks, 3 x Squee is plenty.

edited to reflect first post changes

[MadManiac21]

I am kind of confused about how stopping your opponent from ever using the draw step to get another card into their hand is "random and bad". Unless they are able to cast a draw spell into another draw spell etc, etc. then you have essentially ended the game for them on their side of the board. Possessed Portal stops your opponent from topdecking - period. I was under the impression that the number of "oops look what I just drew - I win" type of games was pretty high considering we play in a format of yawgmoth's will and other brokeness. Portal is not simply a win more card - as Dave stated it helps you find a winning, or secures a winning, position.

Tinkering for Titan is definately a good play, but it does not just flat out win you the game. If you can freeze the state of your opponents board (and you have a welder) with Portal, the game comes to a halt for your opponent. Plenty of decks are able to recover from a Titan by finding a way to remove it - Portal just simply stops your opponent from finding a way.

I also fail to see how this is a "horrendous bastardization of the original" anything. Some of our team members completely brainstormed the idea of abusing welder and bazaar on their way back from Gencon, and we have been working on it ever since. If you are referring to that deck you created with bazaar's, workshops, welders, etc. god knows how far back, then you obviously do not understand this deck's concept. Bazaar replaces workshop in "powering out" fat, along with abusing animate spells in a non-dragon deck (admittedly it does have a transformational SB). I'm pretty sure your list not only lacked animate spells, but also still ran workshops. I see no correlation between these two very different lists.

4 Squee's may be too much, but I do not see how you can leave out the trisk - it kills opposing welders. I also do not think you need entomb. With 4 Thirst, 4 bazaar, 2 intuition, and 2(3) tutors you should not have trouble putting a card you need in the graveyard.

[VGB]

I am kind of confused about how stopping your opponent from ever using the draw step to get another card into their hand is "random and bad". Unless they are able to cast a draw spell into another draw spell etc, etc. then you have essentially ended the game for them on their side of the board. Possessed Portal stops your opponent from topdecking - period. I was under the impression that the number of "oops look what I just drew - I win" type of games was pretty high considering we play in a format of yawgmoth's will and other brokeness. Portal is not simply a win more card - as Dave stated it helps you find a winning, or secures a winning, position.

All drawing is nixed, not just during the draw step.  That completely kills the usefulness of Bazaar, which is a cardinal sin.  You also need 2 x Squee in order to have a permanent lock with Portal, since you have to discard/sac at the end of each turn.  The only thing that makes it asymmetric is Squee, unlike Smokestack, which can be welded out during your opponent's turn to not hit you during your upkeep.  The only bonus it really has as a standalone card is that it can be welded in to negate your opponent's draw.

Tinkering for Titan is definately a good play, but it does not just flat out win you the game. If you can freeze the state of your opponents board (and you have a welder) with Portal, the game comes to a halt for your opponent. Plenty of decks are able to recover from a Titan by finding a way to remove it - Portal just simply stops your opponent from finding a way.

Which is why I suggest Colossus.  Portal is a completely symmetric card (barring Squee in hand); I think you need to read it again and understand it clearly, and re-evaluate its synergy with the deck.

Some of our team members completely brainstormed the idea of abusing welder and bazaar on their way back from Gencon, and we have been working on it ever since. If you are referring to that deck you created with bazaar's, workshops, welders, etc. god knows how far back, then you obviously do not understand this deck's concept. Bazaar replaces workshop in "powering out" fat, along with abusing animate spells in a non-dragon deck (admittedly it does have a transformational SB). I'm pretty sure your list not only lacked animate spells, but also still ran workshops. I see no correlation between these two very different lists.

My deck tries to not rely on the graveyard as much by retaining the ability to hardcast its threats.  Otherwise the decks are very functionally similar, with the key differences being:

FoW -> Trinisphere+Crucible+Waste
TfK -> Draw Sevens
Animate Dead -> Workshop

Admittedly, Animate effects are very flexible, as they allow more Welder/Fat recursion, and let you abuse your opponent's dead creatures as well.  Which is why I am a huge fan of the deck.

edited to reflect thread title change

[Trollstorm]

in my testing, I've decided to dump the transformational dragon sideboard, and in it's place are several cards fit to my "meta". REB, for instance is so good vs. mono blue with animate dead. if you can resolve one or two of those on Opies, the game is basically over.

[MadManiac21]

Thanks for pointing out my flaw VGB; what I meant was in the case of having portal in play and welding it in and out so as you are able to still draw a card on your turn, the board is frozen in that time unless your opponent can cast a draw spell into another draw spell during that "free" period (if you chose to weld portal out).

My mistake on writing that. I understand that you need 2x squee to have a permanent lock, but even having only 1x squee means you're opponent will be losing more "real" cards then you.

As for the suggestion of collosus - it is a good tinker target, but everyone and their cousin is beginning to use tinker => collosus, so bounce spells are plentiful. Portal can simply be pitched to bazaar again; collosus can *really* only be tinkered up. I think it would be a solid addition, though.

[CaptainPlanet.dec]

If you wish to make an ass of yourself, keep it to PMs.
- Kowal[/color]

[Eastman]

Please don't change the name of the deck. I suggest calling it CA for short if you don't like the name.

[serracollector]

Just a thought, maybe a stupid one, maybe one actually up for consideration in this deck, but would a copy or two of [card]Copy Artifact[/card] be a good addition to this deck?  I mean, animating a 2nd turn Titan is nice, having a 2nd one on turn 2 for 2 mana is better.  Maybe it's a win more card, but IMHO copying a Trisk/Duplicant/Titan/Collosus for 2 mana should be some good, not to mention it can copy your opponents' artifacts and it's pitchable to FoW.  My 2 cents.  Good deck.

Serracollector

Wow, what a train wreck.  I managed to fix most of the heinous errors, but I won't be your spell checker in the future.  Please proofread your post before you click the Submit button.
- Kowal[/color]

[PipOC]

Is it really a good idea to use mox diamond? 14 land and no draw7s seems kinda low for it, I thinkit should be dropped for sol ring. I also think that trike is too good to be dropped entirely, it at least deserves an SB spot.