Is Mask now Finally Dead for Good?

[Smmenen]

The printing of Orchard suggests that Oath + Orchard produces a 11/11 undestructable, at worst, suggests that the combo of MaskNaught has been superceded permanently.  The Orchard combo has a land involved - uncounterable until they print a card that counters lands.  

Does the printing of this Oath combo finally destroy whatever advantage Masknaught had since there is a much superior combo that does the same thing?

[Mixing Mike]

I would say yes, mostly because Oath is a blue-based deck, where Mask was a black-based deck.  It can play an combo-control style game to make sure it ends up ahead of whoever is on the other side of the table.  Mask always had to play the combo-disruption route, and could easily lose to a hidden card on top of someone's library.

[Komatteru]

Consider the amount of Mask we've actually seen at tournaments in the past 6 months...you remember all the Mask you saw because it was such an event when you did see it.

Anyway, Mask is nothing but a combo deck that has been replaced by other, more reliable combo decks.  Masknaught needed to be able to get the Dreadnaught and Mask into play very early, otherwise it would lose, since it didn't have much to make up for lost tempo.  The deck also completely rolls to Null Rod, and that doesn't help it out very much.  It is also suseptible to destruction, as it's not too hard to match a first turn Dreadnaught with a first turn Oxidize.  Oath has the same soft-combo feel to it but is much better at controlling tempo.  Oath's win conditions are also not very vulnerable (coupled with the fact that enchantments are hard to get rid of) and overall it's just a much better deck.

Yeah, it could do the whole Shapeshifter/Deadnaught/Flowstone Hellon thing and smack for 20, but whatever.  That more of a idea taken from FEB.

The high cost of Masks doesn't help that deck out.  Buying Masks is worse than buying Bazaars even.  At least with Bazaars you can play (garbage like) Oshawa Stompy or Madness if you get sick of Dragon.  Masks are completely useless when you get sick of Vengeur Mask.

[VGB]

I would say no, it doesn't, for the following reasons:

1) Vengeur/Ninja Mask use the Survival engine, which still sees moderate success in some Madness builds, and can provide a powerful toolbox for any T1 deck when it faces control.

2) What Mask does in hybrid builds is make Volrath's Shapeshifter uncounterable, and those decks can win the turn they drop Shapeshifter via survivaling up Anger (or something else hasted), Inkshrouder, and Phage.

3) If and when metagame cycles see a lessening of Null Rod pervasion, Mask should be primed to make a rebound, as it is easier to cast than Oath and is active immediately.

Overall, I'd say that Mask+Dreadnought is probably outdated at this point, but not necessarily Mask+Survival+Shapeshifter.

[bebe]

I have already commented on this subject elsewhere. I am probably the last of the competitive Mask players in the Toronto area.  This argument should have nothing to do with hate and Null Rods. I've yet to beaten by artifact hate and my record with Mask decks has been quite good. I play a blue based deck which I think better than the black based version as it packs counters and now Naturalizes.
Mask seems outdated only because Oath looks like it requires less cards to combo out. Once a Mask hits play, like Oath, you generally will get a Naught in play.

So lets look at it logically -

Oath uses ten cards in its combo
4 Oath
4 Forbiddan Orchard
2 Creatures

Both Wastelands and enchamtment removal hurt Oath. It protects its combo using counters. However when Oath resolves you get a creture the next turn.

Mask uses eight cards in uts combo
4 Mask
4 Naughts

It is vulnerable to artifact removal. It also protects its combo using counters. It needs a creature in hand to match Oath's speed but is capable of third turn wins.

Both these decks need to get a two casting cost spell into play.

Let's look at a Mask build that I would play today ...

U/g Mask
Paul Shriar

4x Tropical Island
4x Island
4x Fetchlands
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Chrome Mox  

1x Darksteel Collossus
4x Illusionary Mask
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought

4x Force of will
4x Mana Leak
3x Naturalize
3x Daze

4x Brainstorm
4x Accumulated Knowledge
3x Intuition  
1x Tinker
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time walk

sb:
3x Aether Spellbomb  - oath tech
4x Ground Seal - dragon/welder
4x Oath of Druids  
1x Gaeas Blessing
1x Platinum Angel
1x Ancient Hydra
1x Naturalize

From the beginning we had used Oath as a sideboard and it has worked well neutralizing a variety of decks. A cunning wish sideboard is certainly an alternative. But this build allows an almost bye against Fish, Tog, Aggro andn FCG. You do run into these decks.

So strictly speaking which deck would you rather play against Workshop based decks? Which would you rather play against control? Which has the better match up versus combo? I finfd that they are pretty similar in testing. In results, Orlove certainly proved Oath's strength but Mask is hardly playeed and has done well at the few large venues it was played at albeit finishing in top eights without winning a final. If plauyed and tweaked by more than just a group of four players it might actually evolve further.

I am not ready to write Mask off yet. I will say that at the upcoming Lotus tournament in Toronto I will most likely put it down for a different deck though as I want to metagame towards a win. I would not play Oath either. I'm so tired of finishing in the top eight and not winning the big prize

[Hi-Val]

In the comparisons to Oath though, Oath requires that you only have 1 card-- Oath, while Mask needs both Mask and a creature. I always felt that the Vengeur and Ninja-style mask builds were stronger than straight mask because they had a variety of options and could toolbox a little. Against Mask, there's only four must-counters, and while that's the same as in Oath, the latter has 14 counters to back it up.

[bebe]

In the comparisons to Oath though, Oath requires that you only have 1 card-- Oath, while Mask needs both Mask and a creature. I always felt that the Vengeur and Ninja-style mask builds were stronger than straight mask because they had a variety of options and could toolbox a little. Against Mask, there's only four must-counters, and while that's the same as in Oath, the latter has 14 counters to back it up.

Actually it has five must counters - do not forget Tinker which has won me a number of games. We had considered bringing in Xantids but we played control decks enough times to discover that the match up was not bad at all. The deck has a lot of search and can use four Wastelands and a Strip which is really strong today without compromising its mana base. Yes the deck has only ten counters because we wanted three Naturalizes. I four tournaments it has lost to the following decks only ...
1 combo
3 workshop
1 salvagers ( he had four StPs and counters two games running)

This is not to bad really as it was played both here and in Europe. Now Mask survival must deal with graveyard hate and StPs as well with only Xantids as backup. Just counter Survivals and win.

I agree that Oath is better in that it need not search for a creature to win though. Still the decks play rather alike in testing.

[thorme]

In the comparisons to Oath though, Oath requires that you only have 1 card-- Oath, while Mask needs both Mask and a creature.

...

Against Mask, there's only four must-counters, and while that's the same as in Oath, the latter has 14 counters to back it up.

An Oath by itself is equally effective (or ineffective) as a lone Mask isn't it?  Each requires you to draw into either Orchard or critter.

There are only 4 must-counters in Mask as in Oath.  Where Oath has the counter backup though - a well-built Mask deck has plenty of other options for killing the opponent.  At the '03 Gencon I ran Mask - and a good 1/3 of my kills on the day didn't involve Dreadnought.  This might just speak to the ease of working MaskNought into a variety of decks, whereas Oath builds must be built around their combo and by now are fairly homogeneous.

[Komatteru]

An Oath by itself is equally effective (or ineffective) as a lone Mask isn't it?  Each requires you to draw into either Orchard or critter.

There are only 4 must-counters in Mask as in Oath.  Where Oath has the counter backup though - a well-built Mask deck has plenty of other options for killing the opponent.  At the '03 Gencon I ran Mask - and a good 1/3 of my kills on the day didn't involve Dreadnought.  This might just speak to the ease of working MaskNought into a variety of decks, whereas Oath builds must be built around their combo and by now are fairly homogeneous.

This assumes that the opponent doesn't play creatures at all though.  Steve pointed out in the article that there are more creatures prevalant in the meta now that in months past.  In reality, the Oath player needs to draw Orchard probably around 30-40% of the time.  The omnipresence of Joblin Welder and the other small utility creatures more than makes up for the lack of an Orchard.  Meanwhile, Mask does you no good whatsoever if you don't have a creature.  At least Oath can rely on the decent probability that the opponent will put a critter on the table.

Mask was indeed pretty good back in Gencon 2003.  That was over a year ago though.

Edit: Typos and spelling corrections.

[wonkey_donkey]

In the same way that sui is dead, yes - I think it ought to be, but it's not. There are times (although these are by now few and far between) when mask will do better in a given metagame than oath or any other comparable strategy, so it can't be called truly dead - however, these times are few enough to make it generally unplayable.

Short answer is no, but I still wouldn't play it.

Tom

[Saucemaster]

An Oath by itself is equally effective (or ineffective) as a lone Mask isn't it?  Each requires you to draw into either Orchard or critter.

That depends on what decks you're playing against.  If I'm playing against Fish or 5/3 for example, an Oath on its own is much, much more effective than a Mask on its own.  Against any deck that cannot win without creatures on the table, Oath will be vastly superior to Mask because it's a one-card combo.  And, of course, if they refuse to play creatures then you'll eventually (i.e. typically in a turn or two) draw into an Orchard anyway.

The metagame in which you play the deck will be the determinant here, really, but neither Oath nor Mask is a good choice for a field dominated by, for example, combo and Stax.

In fact, Oath and Mask are both best against aggro and control (and other aggro-control decks).  Against aggro, I think Oath is superior for the reasons above.  The only real question is against control.  Honestly, most control decks are a pretty easy matchup for Oath right now, with a big question mark hanging around Control Slaver.  It seems to me that Oath and Mask are both choices for a similar metagame, except that in such metagames, Oath has a natural superiority.

This doesn't take into account the surprise factor of Vengeur Masque, though.  Surprise wins alot of games, and no one's going to be surprised by Oath right now.

[bebe]

Although the Mask deck presented has lost three times to Workshop it has also beaten it twice. I think generally Mask is better in this match up although it is not favorable. Against aggro and control they are  pretty equal.

Indeed the question is will either deck gain prominence now that Oath is expected a and metagamed ( at least Mask has the surprise factor). Combo, I believe, is underplayed. My test group played Dragon than Belcher before reverting back to Mask and I think TPS, Belcher, 7/10, Slaver, LondDeath, Doomsday and even TurboCrucible are all better choices now than either deck. Even Dragon might be preferable. Combo jkust is not played enough in North America. One wonders if most players finds them too demanding or just inconsistent. Could this be an inherent flaw in combo or just palyer skill?

[Smmenen]

I have already commented on this subject elsewhere. I am probably the last of the competitive Mask players in the Toronto area.  This argument should have nothing to do with hate and Null Rods. I've yet to beaten by artifact hate and my record with Mask decks has been quite good. I play a blue based deck which I think better than the black based version as it packs counters and now Naturalizes.
Mask seems outdated only because Oath looks like it requires less cards to combo out. Once a Mask hits play, like Oath, you generally will get a Naught in play.

So lets look at it logically -

Oath uses ten cards in its combo
4 Oath
4 Forbiddan Orchard
2 Creatures

Both Wastelands and enchamtment removal hurt Oath. It protects its combo using counters. However when Oath resolves you get a creture the next turn.

Mask uses eight cards in uts combo
4 Mask
4 Naughts

It is vulnerable to artifact removal. It also protects its combo using counters. It needs a creature in hand to match Oath's speed but is capable of third turn wins.

Both these decks need to get a two casting cost spell into play.

I think this part of your post suffers a bit.  Artifact Removal is FAR more prevalent than enchantment removal.  Energy Flux, Rack and Ruin, Null Rod, etc all hate Mask.  Additionally, Naught dies to every single removal spell in the format.  

The Orchard doesn't even need to stay in play past a nanoseconde before it has done its job and Oath is very difficult to remove once on the board.

[MSR9889]

they r 2 completely different decks. people just gave up on mask and found a way to break oath. THAT IS ALL! mask is still a great deck, but its just not seeing lpay, and therfor is esentually worse, showing no top 32 or better. i feel that a mix of B/U would make for a good build from what i hav seen of it. 4 duress and 4 force. sb stifles and edicts. the deck is so fast to. oath needs a good hand to get a 2nd turn oath off, wher ive seen mask win 2nd turn. i feel that mask may even be superior, someone just needs to break it, as is the way with every card. i want to c who does it first. i may even go out and make it.

[bebe]

Steve -
I will restate what I've already said. Artifact hate has been less problematic than StPs and creature removal. Spellbombs might help there as well. Rods are played primnarily in Fish and WtFr which the Oath side corrects. Most of the decks with a lot of artifact hate are aggro oriented and Oath out the side does them in. Energy Fl is the exception and it is rarely a big enough issue as you can play Dread/Mask the same turn and let your Mask go next turn.
Orchard needs to stay in play a second and Mask needs to resolve - not that great a difference as both decks rely on a two card combo.
Enchantment removal will become prevalent. Oath is easy to build on a budget and hate will be more common now.
That said - play combo.  I might even try Doomsday - I still remember Darren's joke on BD and the infamous Doomsday deck we promoted there dAYs of Futures PaST ...

[freakish777]

I wouldn't say dead, I'd say hibernating.

It could come back if two things happen:

A meta-game shift.

Innovation.

I personally think a Prison-style mask-naught deck would be interesting, using Naught to kill faster than either Titan or Slaver/Pentavus, and also not rely on Welder, however my gut tells me this really isn't feasible.

[Gabethebabe]

IMO a Mask deck that is not Survival Mask has never really been viable because there is no way to make it really consistent.

Survival Mask isn´t more dead than it was before Oath. Survival Mask is a very flexible deck that can adapt to metagame shifts by splashing either of the three remaining colors (all have their merits, white for defensive spells, black for disruption, red for artifact removal and Blood Moon) and adapting its creature base.

Although it might not be a upper tier deck, it is still a tough deck that can beat up every other deck in the format. More important: it is extremely fun to play. There are NO boring matchups. Don´t underestimate the fun factor of decks.

If I had to construct one now, it would be UG only, with Gilded Drake and Waterfront Bouncer maindeck.

[Sammy]

Ive been playing NinjaMask since last spring. I think it's a great deck that no one ever expects to play against. You guys have to remember the multiple win condition on Mask, Shapeshifter. Shapeshifter runs off an Enchantment, not an artifact.

But I think what makes Mask good is the suprise factor, and the fact that it has ok matchups versus most decks, excluding stax, and combo sort of although Duress and Force will sometimes do it.

Ive playe Ninja at a few Power tournies and I made atleast top8 every time (although one time there was only 12 people and that doesnt count...). I made top8 at the 43ish person Myriad games tourny where I was paired against my friend in first round of top8, I gave him the games and he went on to win the tourny, but when we played it out I beat him pretty savagly, he was playing U/G Madness.

I dont think we should consider it dead, because its not terrible against the metagame, its just underplayed.

[andrewpate]

One thing some people have been forgetting:  bounce is a much bigger setback to Oath than to Mask.  Oath can only use Brainstorm to get Akroma back out, where Mask can just recast Dreadnaught if it still has Mask.  So if you are in a metagame with a lot of Oath hate, it might be effective to bring Mask out.