[Brainstorming] Aether Vial Fishy.dec

[nataz]

alright, ever since I saw the U/W aggro control post in the type I forum, the idea of aether vial has been picking at my brain.

Now I want to be very clear before I start by saying that this is an almost completely un-tested deck list, and comes just from my basic understanding of fishy-esq decks, their tempo, and their synergies.

Anyways, its not really the deck that I want people to focus on, its more the idea of using aether vial to power out cheap uncounterable diruption, and if thats even a viable idea.

Honestly, its finals week here at college.school and my brain is shot. So I'm posting up my general ideas here looking for some input.

Let me know what you think.

Here we go,

deck list:  
Creatures:16

(2cc)
4 Cloud
4 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Meddling Mage
3 Voidmage Prodigy

(1cc)
2 mox monkey

Draw: 10
 
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm (possible curiosity?)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Disruption: 10

4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
2 Crucible of Worlds

Mana: 25

fast: 4

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Ruby
1 Black Lotus

w/benifits: 9
5 Strip
1 LOA
3 Mishra's Factory

normal: 7
1 Plateau
1 Volcanic
1 Tundra
2 islands
1 Mountain
1 Plains

Fetch:
4 flooded strand
1 bloodstained mire



SB options:

first off, all the good U/R+cheap artifact stuff that GayRed normaly gets

BEB
REB
Old Man
Rack and Ruin
Energy flux
Fire Ice
crypt
stifle

etc etc etc...

with the fun filled addition of white

Samurai of the Pale curtain
STP
Kami of the A. Law
Seal of cleansing
balance??

card choices/explainations/why this isnt just a decklist:

fist off, what I'm not running. NULL ROD. yea, ouch, painful, owww, eeeee, oh no, this will never work, you don't have null rod.

Don't get me wrong, I <3 Null rod, but it obviously shuts down vial and that would kill the whole point of the deck. Null rod is uber strong, yes I do get it, but I'm trying something new here. bear with me.  

okay, on to Vial + creatures:

optimum situation, vial comes down on turn 1. By turn three you are able to pop out one 14 of the 16 creatures in you deck for free, every turn.

why is this good? Well, for one, its a quicker clock. turn three has you at 3 two drop creatures, as opposed to only 2. But way more importantly, all of the creatures tend to do something.

Not only that, but they can all do something the instant they come into play (which hopefuly will be at very inoopertune times). No summoning sickness here, thank you very much. Attacking is for losers, what my guys really do is disrupt!

so you have a vial set to two:

4 Cloud-okay, he dosnt fit the mold, but this guy puts a body out there and leaves you with open mana for that voidmage counter/standstill/waste/strip/etc etc etc. Its the classic turn two tempo-play.
 
4 Spiketail Hatchling - suddenly all of your opponents spells cost one more  

3 Meddling Mage - mmmm, can't counter stuff on the stack, be he can certainly screw with plenty of game plans

3 Voidmage Prodigy- - uncounterable counterspell. Its like that counter from the last set that can't be countered, but for a fraction of the price.  

set at one:

(1cc)
2 mox monkey - simply asks the quesiton, what were you trying to weld agian? cause I don't it anymore.

Draw: 10
 
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm (possible curiosity?)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
   
fairly self explanitory. Aether Vial turns all your guys into psudo man-lands that wont trigger standstil, which is way cool. No more desperate standstill plays while you pray to draw a factory. Well, at least less desperate standstill plays. :-p

Brainstorm replaces curiosity because of the lack of a pinger. I didn't feel like just two sets of flying guys were holding their own. Also combos nicely with fetchlands, and fetch+crucible.

Disruption: 10

4 Force of Will
4 Aether Vial
2 Crucible of Worlds

I admit, I'm feeling a little disruption light with out a few dazes or Mis-D to help me out. I'm hopeing the AetherVial/Voidmage will help me out here.

Not to mention the fact that this deck still hits the opponents mana hard. 5 strip effects, fast mana for early crucible screwage, and the full four hatchlings. (I do of course miss the simplicity of null rod).

The idea is that once you get a vial going, you can recur wastes + strips till your hearts content b/c you wont really be behind in land drops. You dont need silly mana's to play your creatures!

okay, now for the really ugly part, which I havnt had time to work on at all.

Mana: 25 sources

fast: 4 -need these for stupid crucible plays, plus they shore up your 3cc SB options

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Ruby
1 Black Lotus

w/benifits: 9
5 Strip - derp
1 LOA -derp
3 Mishra's Factory -derp

normal:12 **-eek, gonna need some help on this part. I would like to have a minimum of 4 basics. I would LOVE 5 basics or more. However, I also want fetches (6 would make me feel great, however, I can only find room for 4 ).

I'm thinking of pulling a JayPee and pulling out the duals (leaving one of each in), and adding more fetches and basics. Vial really helps out on easing the color requirements, and after that, its basicaly a blue deck until SB. 2x blue for the voidmage counter is really the biggest challenge.

3 Flooded Strand
1 bloodstained Mire

2 Tundra
2 volc
1 Plains
1 Mt
2 Island

SB options:

first off, all the good U/R+cheap artifact stuff that GayRed normaly gets -derp

BEB
REB
Old Man
Rack and Ruin
Energy flux
Fire Ice
crypt
stifle

etc etc etc...

with the fun filled addition of white

STP
Seal of cleansing - dont like
balance?? -maindeck?

(2cc)
Kami of the A. Law

(1cc)
and of course
grim for nasty creature decks


Samurai of the Pale curtain - As far as I know, the perm never hits the graveyard, so unlike p.void, there can be no welding in resp. heh, take that welder. Also helps with blessing.

alright, there are tons and tons of little tricks you can pull with this deck by manipulating vial in combonation with different creatures and what not.
Let me know what you think.

I have lots more thoughts on why this type of thing might work, but I have to jet to class.
More later

pce
=-carter

** edited, trying new mana base

[Moxlotus]

How is the lack of Null Rod?  It isn't as great as it used to be, but is it still worth including over the Vial?  Rod was always used to make other more powerful decks less broken because fish is like the least broken good deck ever.  But with its effect lessening, did it need to be cut for Vial?

[nataz]

How is the lack of Null Rod?  It isn't as great as it used to be, but is it still worth including over the Vial?  Rod was always used to make other more powerful decks less broken because fish is like the least broken good deck ever.  But with its effect lessening, did it need to be cut for Vial?

No rod = the suck.
But fish is hard pressed to win even with a rod, so i'm trying something new.

Just like null rod can buy you tempo, so can Vial. Free creatues are hottness, when in effect its more like free spells that happen to beat.

Null rod could slow a deck down by one turn for every moxen it shut off. Vial speeds your deck up by one turn everytime you get to play two creatures a turn instead of one.

does this make the deck better, eh, I dont know. But I do know that the deck is different. Which is good, cause the old one isnt working anymore.

One of the things thats nice about this deck is that you can sideboard creatures. I know when I found myself playing GayRed and WTF that sometimes it was hard to SB in everything I wanted because i was forced to lower my threat count.

Now, you can side in hate that also acts as a beatstick.

In addition to the creatures listed above, I've been toying with the idea of welders and Old Man of the Sea. Does anyone else have any good ideas for:

1-2cc creatures (pref 2cc)
Either R, U, or W
That have an interesting ability, or could be considered good "hate cards"
that pref do not have abilities which require tapping

am I missing anything obvious?

[Hi-Val]

Vialling out a Spiketail in response to a spell is so hot.

I think you should look more into the idea. You lose out on Null Rod, the heart and soul of Fish, but you get a really good 1-drop in a deck of two-drops. Being able to tap out for manland attack and still lay creatures looks pretty hot.

[Jacob Orlove]

One note, just in case people are tempted to try vial/cloud mana tricks:

Cloud of Faeries
1U
Creature -- Faerie
1/1
Flying
When Cloud of Faeries comes into play, if you played it from your hand, untap up to two lands.
Cycling 2 (2, Discard this card: Draw a card.)

Null Rod is really weak in the current meta. Still, it'd be nice to have some strong disruption to replace it.

[Machinus]

Stern proctor is really good.

Also try: skyshroud condor, mesmeric fiend, nantuko tracer, quirion sentinel.

[Hi-Val]

Stern Proctor looks really fun. It's a wizard for Kai as well. It seems that multiple Vials are worthless to draw unless you can get some really hot draw action going on. For this reason, Curiosity is kind of essential. Brainstorm and Standstill don't really play well together, and you need to be drawing more threats if you have two vials out or they're a waste.

Vial + Standstill is some sticky good fun!

[nataz]

Some quick replies:

@ Everyone
1) Glad you like the idea of vial and fishy

@ Mac
- Do you think the proctor would be a solid enough choice for a main deck, or are you thinking more SB? Also, I really want to stay on color. The vial for me is more like a mana fixer and "mini mask", I don’t want to be stuck with something I can't cast with out it.

@J O
- Glad to see you commenting on this, I think there are a lot of parallels that can be draw between this in WTF. I think you once called it "lateral thinking", and yes, every time I read the official wording of Cloud my heart breaks.

Heh, I can only imagine.

@HI Val

The reasoning for the Brainstorms was the lack of evasion. Fish had Island walk, GayRed had pingers, I have neither. Admittedly curiosity is hotness’ under a standstill, but only if I can actually deal damage. Since I expect to pop hatchings fairly regularly, that only leaves me with 4 evasion targets in the cloud of fairies.

Also, not only are hatchings hot (all the time), but I also <3 Kai during the late game. He also combo's with the meddling mages similar to how the grims were used in GayRed understandstill.


what do people think of the new mana base?

2 island
1 mountain
1 plains

4 blue fetch
1 red fetch

1 plat
1 tundra
1 volc

what do people think of the crucible?

[Machinus]

I am confused about how Proctor is not on-color. You run mostly blue mana sources. It is harder for you to get out mage than it is proctor...whaaa? You should be at two vial counters anyway.

I think it is a great choice for the maindeck. There are lots of targets to bounce: juggernaut, crucible, chalice, oath, deed. Proctor is also good against hate cards like back to basics and blood moon.

I use proctor in my monoblue fish deck.

[nataz]

actualy I was refering to the other cards you mentioned. Proctor does indeed look interesting.

The tracer was interesting, but I think overall the samurai of the pale curtain could be better.

[evilmule]

Instead of running the vials maindeck, couldn't you play them as sideboard tech against decks that play lots of counters/Chalice of the Void?  Doing so would allow you to keep Null Rod in the main, while having a backup plan against freaking Chalice for two.  Then again, Aether Vial lets you do a lot of  stupid crap with this deck.  Aether Vial's brokenness makes up for the Null Rod's hosing is debatable though.  Oh my god...Aether Vial under Standstill is HOT.  Proctor looks like he would be very strong, but I think that Samurai might not belong in the deck.  It's very, very hard for you to actually cast him with your manabase, so he's pretty dead in your hand without a Vial.  If however, he really is that good against Welder and the like, I would actually cut the red in this deck, and just run STP or something for creature kill.  It would improve your manabase quite a bit, and allow you to reliably cast Meddling Mage and let you drop Samurai without having to get the basic plains.

Edit:  The problem with Vial is that it's ridiculously bad after turns 1-2.  Null Rod late game can still be effective, but Vial takes a few turns to get going.  By the time you have an active Vial going, most of your creatures will be out of your hand.

[nataz]

eh, I thought about cutting red, but the thing is I really like the options it gives you.

Rack and Ruin, Mox Monkey, Grim, welder, REB, fire/ice are all hotness.

As of right now, the new mana base seems to work pretty well, so I'm not to worried about that.  I do like the samurai of the pale curtain, but I think he is a little situational for the maindeck.

edit***

okay, I've been playing games online with this bugger all afternoon, and I like it. Curiosity is definatly the way you want to go, screw brainstorm, I was wrong on that.

still looking at testing grim, and old man in SB, although they may just not be needed with STP.

The mana base is pretty solid so far, and vial tricks are soooo coool. Spiketail really shines, but voidmage, meddling mage, and mox monkey have been doing their thing too.  

I really need to work on the SB, b/c three colors gives you so many options. After playing a ton of games today agaist two different WS based decks, i'm convinced that red needs to stay. Rack and Ruin combined with mox monkey is very good.

Swords are great against oath. Kami seems slow. Didn't get too much of a chance to test samurai yet.
 
Energy flux vs non-smokestak decks are great.

vial is great vs most types of control, obv.

anyways, I'll let you know more when I've done some more testing.
If I have some time, and can really throw it at the gauntlet this weekend, and I'm still happy with my results, I'll toss in in the normal vintage folder.

pce

=-carter

[nataz]

Edit:  The problem with Vial is that it's ridiculously bad after turns 1-2.  Null Rod late game can still be effective, but Vial takes a few turns to get going.  By the time you have an active Vial going, most of your creatures will be out of your hand.

sorry about the 2x post, but the last one is getting a little cluttered.

I disagree about the vial. Its great for playing mind-games, and actualy forcing the opponent to play around you spells (well, creatures), even when they are't on the board. A spiketail on the board is great, but one on the board and one in your hand with a vial out is sweet. its an uncounterable daze

same with kai math (as I like to call it). Unless the other deck is running stifle, kai gets the last word. So, most people will look at your board, count the wizards (if kai is even on the table), and figure thats how many spells they need to try and force though. Vial can throw another wizard on to screw with that (or throw kai himself to turn those meddling mages into great counterspells).

This just gets better post SB with Samurai of the pale curtain (I would think, I havn't done near enough testing with him), kami of the AL, and procter.

As for a late game vial taking a few turns to become active, yes that is true. However,  in all honestly a null rod's impact on the board can plummet if its played later in the game. Null rod turn two shutting off two moxen is hot. Null rod turn 5 shutting off 2 moxen, but not dealing with the 4 or 5 lands out, isn't.

[rozetta]

Why not play Mask of Memory instead of Curiosity? Since you're no longer running Null Rod to shut down equipment, you can have creatures coming out under standstill and still curiosity them up. Plus the effect is bigger and multiple Mask of Memory == total masturbation.

[Batle]

I have been testing this for weeks now, and I will start by saying that I would never go 3 collours because the vials give you an oppertunity to run a rather weak mana base, but adding a third collour kind of forces you to focus on the mana base again. I will not post my deck list before tomorrow because I'm taking it for a turnament tomorrow, but the vial gives you some interesting sb trix:-P


-Atle, the creator of UW vial fish.

[nataz]

@ rozetta

At first glance mask seems a little expensive. Curiosity is a one time investment of one blue mana. Mask takes at least three mana to get going.

However, I am going to at least give it a shot though, because having vial out with no creatures in hand really sucks. Digging that one card deeper could be pretty good.

@ batle

I'd like to hear how you do, and see what you are using for a creature/disruption base. Were you able to fit in daze or another counter? How mana mana sources were you using?

Edit**

found more creatures
-guilded drake-how could I miss this?

and then classics from mono-blue fish
-waterfront bouncer
-Rootwater theif

[Cavius The Great]

Why not play Mask of Memory instead of Curiosity? Since you're no longer running Null Rod to shut down equipment, you can have creatures coming out under standstill and still curiosity them up. Plus the effect is bigger and multiple Mask of Memory == total masturbation.

mask of memory isn't half bad with Grim Lavamancer. It's a great way to feed the graveyard and make Lavamancer a stone cold killer.

[Batle]

I played my version to a turnament today, it was so weird, I lost my good match-ups but won against both RG beats and FCG. I got a 4-3 score. not good, but ok since I was lacking 2 moxen and turnament experience with the deck.


my deck list:

4 Wasteland
1 Island
4 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus


3 Rootwater Thief
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Meddling Mage
3 Voidmage Prodigy
1 Stern Proctor

3 Æther Vial
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Curiosity
4 Swords to Plowshares



SB:
2 Stern Proctor
2 Gilded Drake
2 Silver Knight
1 Voidmage Prodigy
2 Waterfront Bouncer
1 Æther Vial
2 Serenity
3 Blue Elemental Blast



Just summing up the turnament:

1. 2-1 vs FCG                  1-0
2. 0-2 vs Stax                  1-1
3. 2-0 vs. Goblins             2-1
4. 1-2 vs. Drain slavery    2-2
5. 0-2 vs. UW fish(no vial) 2-3
6. 2-0 vs. affinity              3-3
7. 2-1 vs. RG beats           4-3


Atle- the creator of UW vial fish

[ducksoup31]

Hey,
What about Gilded Drake SB (used against oath)? It costs 2 (like every other creature in this deck), and its very nice to Vial one out right after they oath up an Akroma/S.O.T.N. It even has some uses in other matchups, I guess.
Good Luck


EDIT: Nevermind, lol, I just noticed that you already use it

[Rancor1]

Why did people stop posting, I think this is a great project!

I wish I had found this post sooner, I would've liked to work on it more.

The first thing that I would do is cut the lotus. Turn 1 Crucible + waste is total gas, but the thought of them welding out my vial for lotus is a nightmare.

I would also disagree with mask of memory, as it takes up your second turn, when you want to be casting almost any card in the deck.

[nataz]

personaly I blame waterbury for at least my lack of interest

I like this deck, and its a lot of fun to play, but its still a little low on the power level. Since the next big event I'm plaing to attend is waterbury, I want to play something with a bit more umph. That means all my testing has gone in a much different direction. Less trying to build new decks, and more trying to break old ones in a new meta-game.  

On random stuff:

I agree, after testing the mask is too slow.
Gilded Drake is really good, while stern proctor ended up just being okay.
I really wish I had more room for 4x monkeys, but oh well.
I also really like red in this deck, and still do not belive that it should be cut

=-carter