[Discussion]Black in Intuition-Slaver Variants

[Mixing Mike]

I've talked to a lot of people about running black for DT and Y. Will in Intuition-Slaver variants.  I've gotten a lot of mixed answers from everyone.  

Recently, Sundering Titan has become a more uncommon card to see in tournaments.  Adding the third color isn't all the bad of an idea with this decrease in 7/10 bodies.  Also, the count in the number of Back to Basics has started to drop.  It also seems that people have better things to do with a Crucible than reccur strip effects all day.  I think most of us know that you play play Blood Moon, even with the Seas.

So with all that being said, why do I personally choose to not run black in my list?  Because I only see Yawgmoth's Will winning me games against control.  With a draw engine composed of 3-4 Intuitions, Recall, 4 TFK's, 4 Brainstoms, and 4 AK's, I don't see why you would lose to them enough to warrant running Will.  Say I did run Will, and got it to resolve (which should be fairly easy after drawing so many cards), why replay all those draw spells?  It's not like you'll draw into more draw spells, or possibly anything useful since you've seen it all from drawing so many cards before playing the Will anyways.

DT on the other hand is great.  Utility is not something I like to be short on.  It says Tinker #2, Recall #2, Welder #5, 'draw spell' #5, etc....  It's very good against combo.  However, I'm doing just fine against combo without it.  It's not like I'm having trouble getting a Mindslaver out against combo.

So the question stands.  Why would/wouldn't you run black in your Intuition-Slaver variant?

[JACO]

Recently, Sundering Titan has become a more uncommon card to see in tournaments.  Adding the third color isn't all the bad of an idea with this decrease in 7/10 bodies.  Also, the count in the number of Back to Basics has started to drop.  It also seems that people have better things to do with a Crucible than reccur strip effects all day.

Maybe in your neck of the woods you see these things, but from what I've seen in the rest of the world, and especially at SCG3, pretty much all of these statements are untrue. Sundering Titans were all over SCG Chicago, as were Back to Basics. The count of B2B isn't going to decrease when it's played in the main deck of Mono Blue, and in the sideboard of MeanDeck Oath, which is one of the most played decks at the moment. Also, with Crucible, you can either recur a fetchland (yippeefuckingskippee), or you can destroy your opponent's lands. If you ARE playing Intuition, you had better be abusing Crucible/Wasteland, or you must have the luxury of not playing the deck optimally.

So with all that being said, why do I personally choose to not run black in my list?  Because I only see Yawgmoth's Will winning me games against control.  With a draw engine composed of 3-4 Intuitions, Recall, 4 TFK's, 4 Brainstoms, and 4 AK's, I don't see why you would lose to them enough to warrant running Will.  Say I did run Will, and got it to resolve (which should be fairly easy after drawing so many cards), why replay all those draw spells?

When you replay Will in Slaver decks, it's not to recur all the draw. It's to replay all the artifacts you've Welded out, and to force your opponent to concede. There's no other spell in the deck that can singlehandedly win games with the force that Yawgmoth's Will does.

DT on the other hand is great.  Utility is not something I like to be short on.  It says Tinker #2, Recall #2, Welder #5, 'draw spell' #5, etc....  It's very good against combo.  However, I'm doing just fine against combo without it.  It's not like I'm having trouble getting a Mindslaver out against combo.

So you're regularly activating Mindslaver on turn 2? You said it yourself, 'DT is great.' That's all you need to know. Don't try to outthink yourself. Demonic Tutor and Yawgmoth's Will are broken, and to not include 2 Undergrounds and splash these bombs would be a heinous and unforgiveable crime.

[Hi-Val]

Wow, I thought resolving Tinker can singlehandedly win games the way that Will can as well, but I've apparently been grossly misinformed : )

Titans are just kinda weak right now in non-workshop decks, which makes me board the bus to frown town. Will is essential in Goth Slaver, but we ended up cutting DT for better stuff. Committing to black early is a bad idea in such a land-hateful time we're in.

Finally, getting mindslaver to hit against combo needs one of two things: the nut draw or counters in hand. The latter is easier to achieve than the former, and being able to drain on turn 2 against combo means that you don't need to have Mindslaver against them. I thought you knew that, JACO.

[Mixing Mike]

Also, with Crucible, you can either recur a fetchland, or you can destroy your opponent's lands. If you ARE playing Intuition, you had better be abusing Crucible/Wasteland, or you must have the luxury of not playing the deck optimally.

I have no idea where that came from. I want to know about black in this type of deck.

Sundering Titans were all over SCG Chicago, as were Back to Basics. The count of B2B isn't going to decrease when it's played in the main deck of Mono Blue, and in the sideboard of MeanDeck Oath, which is one of the most played decks at the moment.

So you're saying that you'd play Back to Basics and Titans in a metagame full of 5-7 BasicIsland.dec?  It makes no sense to me.  Besides, you should be able to play through a B2B anyways because you run so many islands and you can still fetch them out.  You do have me about the Titans.  Yes there we quite a few at SCG Chi, but what about everywhere else?  I'm not saying Titans have been wiped off the map, but they're far from the numbers they used to be at when Control Slaver and Meandeck Titan and 5/3 and 7/10 we playing him before everyone put basics in their decks.

There's no other spell in the deck that can singlehandedly win games with the force that Yawgmoth's Will does.

I must contest that.  Yes I will agree that Will is very, very stong in any deck than can run it.  But I've found that Intuition is just as deadly as Will is in these types of decks.  It sets up locks under a Welder, or gets for 3 AK's to break through their counterwall with.  Why bother to waste time reccuring stuff when you could just lock them and win, or continute to outdraw them?  I must say though that getting a Slaver out is pretty game ending for your opponnent.  I don't think anyone can really deny that.

So you're regularly activating Mindslaver on turn 2?

No, I'm not.  I ment to imply that I've been able to stay around long enough to get myself established in the game, or slave them without the help of Demonic Tutor, therefore pointing out that you don't need to DT for something to stay in the game.  I'm sorry if that was unclear.

[Machinus]

Lotus + DT + Will is a combo by itself. In decks that weld moxes, play ancestral, walk, tinker, AKs, and the whole rest of the goodness, Will does things that no other card can.

[andrewpate]

Exactly.  Don't forget that Will does more than "just win."  It can act as a big tempo card that just recasts Demonic Tutor and Black Lotus, and that can be enough.  I wouldn't even consider cutting Will from my Control Slaver build, but I rarely ever combo out with it and seal up the game in one 5 minute turn.  It's just one more really strong card.

[Toad]

When you replay Will in Slaver decks, it's not to recur all the draw. It's to replay all the artifacts you've Welded out, and to force your opponent to concede.

If you are Welding, you are winning. If you are winning, you don't really need Yawgmoth's Will.

There's no other spell in the deck that can singlehandedly win games with the force that Yawgmoth's Will does.

I have actually never lost a single game with Toadislaver when I Intuitionned with Goblin Welder on board. Intuition does exactly what Yawgmoth's Will do (Intuition for the Crucible Combo and get infinite Slaver activations), but Intuition is not dead on turn 2 (AK or even the Crucible Combo if turn 1 Welder) and is instant speed.

I'd rather focus my deck on consistency (hence better mana base and more 4-offs and redundant engine) than on brokeness (hence no Yawgmoth's Will).

[DuKeLiO]

Yesterday I win a tournry (Beta timetwister) with Control Slaver. I'd thinking about cut black for add Blood Moon for the Black cards, I didn't it and I am happy with my decision. YWill and demonic tutor gave me some games that no-one card would.
The combo Intuition+YWill is awesome: eot intuition for lotus, crypt, and walk and in my main phase BROKEN THINGS HAPPEN...XD

I also think that my englihs is sooo bad, sorry XD

[Covetous]

I personally feel that Will is win-more and with the amount of draw you have in the intuition/AK version, DT is unnecessary.  That does not mean that DT and Will aren't capable of making the deck better--they are just not needed to win.  If you run them, you have trouble running 3 Intuition + 4 AK, which is SO good in this deck.  I'd rather have 3 intuition as bombs instead of 1 DT + 1 Will, on the basis that 3 bombs is better than two.  Intuition is a huge bomb with or without AK, and allows you to just win due to synergy with crucible and citadel + slaver.  Running a version without Intuition seems weaker.  If you can run 2-3 Intuition and 4 AK in a version with DT and Will, more power to you.  I personally can't find the space.  I personally like the feel of running a ton of draw rather than more utility spells.  The AK version runs like Tog with 5-6 basic lands, which is nice.  There are admittedly some times when I really wish I had Will, but that happens with any deck that doesn't run Will (it's basically the best card in the game IMO).  I think this debate comes down to which version you prefer--both are very strong, and each has strengths the other one doesn't.  Duress is as much of a reason to run black as DT & Will.  Does anyone playing with 4 black cards (2 Duress + Will + DT) find that sometimes they don't have cards to force with?  That could be another reason to play without Black, if it happens frequently enough to be a problem.

[JACO]

Wow, I thought resolving Tinker can singlehandedly win games the way that Will can as well, but I've apparently been grossly misinformed : )

My quote was "There's no other spell in the deck that can singlehandedly win games with the force that Yawgmoth's Will does." You don't see people wanting to ban Tinker or Intuition each year, like you do with Yawgmoth's Will. While those spells can certainly be gamebreaking and broken (just as a timely Ancestral or Balance can be), nothing is as broken in Type 1 as Yawgmoth's Will. To debate this is futile. Even if you are Slaving them for a few turns in a row, if you run out of artifacts, there is nothing more gamebreaking, demoralizing, and game-ending than Yawg Will.

Finally, getting mindslaver to hit against combo needs one of two things: the nut draw or counters in hand. The latter is easier to achieve than the former, and being able to drain on turn 2 against combo means that you don't need to have Mindslaver against them. I thought you knew that, JACO.

Again, from my experience play Slaver against MeanDeath, TPS, and Belcher in particular, they have threats nearly every turn, plus Duress and/or Force of Will (depending on the deck, obviously). Getting off a Mindslaver (and/or multiple counters) before they go off is often difficult.  

This whole thread reminds me of the ones where people debate cutting Balance from 4CC, 'to increase consistency.' Trying to increase consistency by cutting some of the best cards in your deck just decreases the brokenness of the deck, and Type 1 is all about brokenness. Fish style decks are of course an anomaly to this, but those decks have a specific function in the metagame, and are somewhat narrow.

[Mixing Mike]

I thought broken-ness came from high ammount of consistancy.  Well, that is if you can't bundle it all up like combo decks do.

[Vegeta2711]

I thought broken-ness came from high ammount of consistancy.

Is this a joke or are you serious? When did consistency have to do with brokenness? Burninator is one of the epitome's of consistency (You'll always have a burn spell) but I don't see anyone saying that's broken. (STFU in advance Kowal  :lol: ) This example can be made with other decks, but I wanted to use the simplest example available for people.

Belcher isn't really 'consistent' as many games are either complete routs or savage losses. Yet it can be considered one of the most broken decks in the format.

Consistency helps, but it's not really a quotient of how broken a deck is.

[Mixing Mike]

No, I'm serious.  If you can't play some super high threat density, why not make each spell so common that all you need is one or two to resolve before you get into a position to win?  The diffrence between Burninator and Intuition-Slaver is that the Slavers 4-of's are actually threats to your opponnent, where as if you survive the initial onslaught of Burninator, you've got a good chance of winning.

I find myself using Welders for counterbait to get my draw to resolve.  I've found that there are three goals for any Intuition-Slaver deck to reach during any game.

-Draw tons of cards.
-Resolving an Intuition under an active Welder.
-Playing Tinker.

Once one of the following goals is met you shouldn't lose in theory.

[Covetous]

Does anyone play both black and intuition successfully in the same slaver deck?  I seem to think that the decks are either intuition-based or contain black.  The amount of slots you need to cut to add in intuition/ak basically eliminates the possibility for you to add black.  

@MixingMike--Are you asking whether running black or running intuitions is better, or whether you can run them both in the same deck?  So far, I've not seen both, and I don't think it's likely to do both.

@JACO--Aren't you the creator of a deck recently that did very well using black but not yawgwill?  That deck did not need yawgwill to do well, and neither does Slaver.  Sure, yawgwill breaks your opponent's back like nothing else (well, except for a good slaver activation).  But, the deck does not need it to win.  In fact, it does not really need black at all to win.  Yawgwin will not help you to slave early vs. fast combo.  Intuition can.  I'm not entirely sure why that was brought up (or even if you brought it up).  Nobody says that Yawgwin isn't a huge huge bomb, just that it is not necessary for this deck, and the deck just might be more stable (read: better) without the black splash.  Yawgwin was initially used to allow you to replenish your welded artifacts when you run out.  Now you can just crucislave and never run out.  Thus, will is not strictly necessary.

[Mixing Mike]

I know BrassMan ran black in his Intuition-Slaver deck and took it to a T8 finish in the more recent SCG VA, found here.

I'm asking if running both is better than running just Intuitions.

JACO isn't running Y. Will because it has no synergy with the rest of the deck, which is understandable.  Yawg Will in this deck is strong, and does have a LOT of synergy with Welders.  Also, Intuition can set up some huge Wills (Lotus, Walk, XXX comes to mind).

Though I'm in the favor that those huge reccursions aren't going to win you games that you couldn't win otherwise.  If you resolve an Intuition under an active Welder, then you're already won; no matter if you're setting up a Y.Will, or just getting big brown things to slave lock/beat them down with.  Say you don't have a Welder out, and you grab the AK's.  You'll eventually just plow over them with more cards than they could imagine.

[DuKeLiO]

I've played Control Slaver for several moths ago. In my version I can play AK+Intuition and Black (but no duress) and I'm happy with this. When you are playing vs every non-combo Deck you want have the Y.Will in your deck. You can going to lose a game while your oponent are using his countermagic in your draw spells. He must do it beacuse if he doesn't do it, he will lose the game. He don't have infinite counterspells. The turn before you go to lose if you play your 3rd Intuition you can or can't win but 95% of resolved Yawgmoth's Will are game. You can recover of almost any situation in the game. I can't figure the deck without black.
Test a Ur version vs random aggro (RG beats), you shouldn't protect your welder vs 4 mogg fanatic, 4 lightning bolt, 3 grim lavamancer & 4 incinerates with only your 8 counters, you need some broken play
-> Yawgmoths, lotus, walk, welder, welder...
Running black its also important vs aggro to find Tinker for Sunderinr or Pentavus with the DT or vs control to find the Strip Mine t to destroy and early LoA.