[Aztec] Venatog

[Nefarias]

Venatog
1BG
Creature - Atog
1/2
Remove a poison counter from an opponent: Venatog gets +2/+2 until end of turn.

Just looking for new ways to try and use poison. It can also be used as an anti-posion if we make enough cards that reward it. Finally, this osrt of bridges the gap in a way of devoting a strategy strictly to damage or posion, as it allows you transform enemy poison into damage if that route isn't working.

///CURRENT WORDING///
Venatog
1BG
Creature - Atog
1/2
Remove a poison counter from target player: Venatog gets +4/+4 until end of turn. Use this ability only once each turn.

EDIT 1: Boosted boost.
EDIT 2: Added activation & any target.
EDIT 3: Removed activation cost, boosted boost, once per turn.

[Upinthe]

This is overcosted, considering it sucks unless your opponent has poison to begin with, and can't ever be lethal (19 damage, max) in which case you are probably better off killing them with the poison anyway.

[fattzzach]

What if it got like plus 4 instead to promote poison playing, ie give them a poisoin counter and then remove it to make him a 5/6.

[rvs]

Or, allow this to remove your own poison counters as well, so it features as offense AND defense

[Nefarias]

Well, I definitely want to keep it at a 1/2, and I think want to keep it at 1GB. Just GB seems very un-Atogish.

I like the idea of it removing yoiur own, but I think that would have to come with an activation cost, which I'd rather not do. A solid attacker that removes all your poison counters for free would be a mistake in a poison set, like printing Shatterstorm in Mirrodin. Perhaps there could be a second Atog that was 1WR and removed your own?

I agree that it needs to have a possibility of going lethal on it's own, and while I thought at first +2/+2 was the Atog staple, Chronatog gave +3/+3, so I'll go with that for now. Am I the only one that thinks +4/+4 is a bit too much?

[Upinthe]

+4/+4 isn't too much. Look at [card]Vermiculos[/card]. That's very similar to an atog and everybody thinks its a crap rare.

[rvs]

+4/+4 isn't too much. Look at [card]Vermiculos[/card]. That's very similar to an atog and everybody thinks its a crap rare.

It's not similar at all actually. For starters, its 5 mana, AND you need to play the artifacts in that particular turn. In a poison-themed set, I figure it would be easy enough to give your opponent some poison counters and then take advantage of it. Why should this be equally good to Psychatog? If that is the objective, then use my previous suggestion.

[Ephraim]

If you want it to be able to remove a counter from any player to get the bonus, you could indicate that the ability can be used only once per turn. I like that it gets +3/+3, however. That breaks the idea that each poison counter is worth 2 damage. I love the flavour; the name is especially good.

[Nefarias]

24 HR Clock

[Matt]

This really hates hard on any deck that would WANT to accumulate poison (and we've had suggestions for such things).

[Ephraim]

Good point, Matt. I hadn't really thought about that. Walking Sponge, it might be best, then, to make the bonus bigger (+4/+4 or allow the poison counter to come from either player) and make the ability usable only once a turn.

[rvs]

This really hates hard on any deck that would WANT to accumulate poison (and we've had suggestions for such things).

To any gameplan there is a foil, so for the I <3 Poison deck, this would be the natural danger within the block, at least. So I disagree with Ephraim that this needs change.

[Ephraim]

There is already a natural foil to the "I <3 Poison" deck and that's more poison counters. If somebody's trying to collect them and you've got the means to hit them with two or three of them, you can make them lose the game from trying to maximize the effect of their cards that like poison counters.

[rvs]

then if that is the case, what is your real problem with this card? It's worse than Psychatog, and most likely worse than Sarcatog, although in-block it might be a bit better.

[Ephraim]

My concern is that it hurts decks that want to acquire poison counters too hard. We want that to be a viable, but risky route to victory. This card makes it non-viable by totally shutting it down. It is good to create tension between the various strategies, but this card pulls a little too hard.

[Matt]

Imagine if they'd printed Withered Wretch in the Odyssey block. This is the same deal. If you hate too hard on a mechanic, it becomes a liability, and no one plays it (see Snow Covered Lands).

[Upinthe]

Imagine if they'd printed Withered Wretch in the Odyssey block. This is the same deal. If you hate too hard on a mechanic, it becomes a liability, and no one plays it (see Snow Covered Lands).

This doesn't even hose the whole mechanic though. It just ruins a "poison myself" strategy. So what? It doesn't stop someone from murdering you with poison counters. I agree that printing an Energy Flux like card here would ruin a poison set, but an Imi statue is what this is similar to in power level.  Also, your analogy to snow-covered lands is laughable. Melting and Cold Snap are hardly game breaking even if your opponent is using all snow-covered lands. The mechanic failed because the cards that use it are bad, not because they were hosed.

Also, Stabilizer hit cycling really hard, and that didn't stop cycling from getting played in OnBC.

[Matt]

The problem is that as long as this is in play, you can't ever have any poison counters unless I want you to, and I pay almost no price for this. If it had a cost attatched to it, it would be fine, but it's just too repeatable.

Also, Stabilizer didn't stop cycling from being played because cycling cards still did something even if you couldn't cycle them. It didn't hose the cycling cards, it hosed Slide and Rift.

[Nefarias]

This little guy was lost in the recent massive Master List additions. There was a big debate as to whether or not he hosed the "poison counters as a resource" strategy, so ultimately I changed it have an actiation of 1, and made it be able to remove a counter from any player to compensate. Is this an okay compromise?

[Jacob Orlove]

Unpoisoning yourself is really strong.

[Nefarias]

How about this version, proposed earlier:

Remove a poison counter from target player: Venatog gets +4/+4 until end of turn. Use this ability only once each turn. (...and only any time you could play a sorcery????)

[Sytupal]

I think that's too weak however.  By this i mean your suggestion as only a sorcery.  instant speed doesn't hurt that much and let's it become a blocker.  I like the idea of only once per turn.

[Nefarias]

Okay, I'm going to go ahead and clock this as is.

[Matt]

Closed and added.[/color]