Belcher

[checkered_dan]

After a smooth ride to a 1st/2nd split at Mykatog's Mox last weekend, I decided to head to the cape yesterday for the "$500" Tournament that was going on down there.  My deck largely crapped out on me and I was playing on auto pilot, but I would have been able to take at least one more match if I had ran Darksteel Colossus main.  

Anyone else out there playing 2-land belcher have any input?  Does the Colossus go in the main?  Should I just do like ze Germans and run living wish in the main?  What do you guys think about pentad prisims over Chromatic Spheres?  Any input at all would be welcome.

-- some guy playing belcher

[Sytupal]

Decklist kinda help man.  Though the basics are pretty well known in belcher, your specific build may be a bit different than we might know.


Though the "$500" prize structure was never a guarantee, which we know, simply because i stated it on the tournament post and so did The Hamburgler in the Open forum, thanks for making an appearance down here amongst us Cape Codders.

Thinking that i know who you are, you basically crapped out the bulk of your deck with kowal both games against him on turn 1 and 2, while i sat directly to the left of you.


Your build looked extremely solid.  But like i want to ask most belcher players:  Why aren't you running a slower yet more controlling Mono U Mana Severence/Belcher.    The countermagic and control of the mono u build really takes belcher to a different level of play.  a member of Mixing Mike's team underground plays a blue build that seems to be running efficiently and effectively.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm just going by what i see/saw.

[LouGodKingofDustBunnys]

I’ve been playtesting a version of 2 land belcher for a few weeks now, and I have a little input. As for you first question, putting the colossus in the main, I wouldn’t, since most of the time it simply wouldn’t do anything but clog your hand. Playing living wish main would give you the option to get the Colossus out of the board if you need it, so I think that would be the way to go. On your question about the pentad prisms Vs. Chromatic’s, the Pentad’s are way too slow for this deck, hell they are too slow for Vintage for that matter (Using two different colors of mana for the sunburst, then using it the next turn, that adds up to just about a turn too slow for a go for the throat combo deck like 2-Land Belcher). The Chromatic’s filter your mana for your colored spells, and gets you an extra card, which helps immensely.
The reason some people play 2 land Belcher over the mono-blue build is the simple fact that some people just like to go for the throat and kill their opponent, not take control of the game then try to win. The difference is mostly just in play style. Well, play style and personal habits (I’m a smoker, so I like to get my rounds over with quickly so I can sneak outside and have a cigarette). The mono-blue version is more consistent then the 2-Land version, but much slower, now if we could just find a way to make 2-Land more consistent and more resilient to disruption/countermagic, my poisoned lungs would be much, much happier. Either that or I can just friggin play Doomsday.

[Ferrismonk]

I've played 2 land belcher since I first saw it, including it's various forms. My current build is pretty tight, and it has some nice things against Trinisphere and FOW.  I'll PM a decklist if you want.  As for the Colossus, I run him main over Memory Jar.  Memory Jar never really seemed to do the things I wanted it to, why Tinker for Jar when you can get Colossus or Becher?  Why weld in Memory Jar when you can usually weld in Belcher?  I like the colossus main because it gives me another route to victory.  I hate it when my opponent plays Null Rod and I just poop out.  They usually let the Tinker resolve because they don't expect Colossus.  

That being said, sometimes he just likes to sit in your hand.  Luckily, you also have Timetwister and Wheel of Fortune to dump him back in your library.

My build also does not run Living Wish, I found it too slow for the toolbox it offers.  I also found it was very annoying to have tinker in hand and REALLY wanting to just lay out the colossus and win the game, but you can't.

[LouGodKingofDustBunnys]

No Memory Jar???? Your playing 2-Land Belcher with no Jar, and adding the Colossus main as an extra win condition? Jesus, the Jar is the extra win condition, one that can’t be blocked, and beat’s opponents running stupid Platinum Angel tricks (like most workshop decks). The Jar draws you cards, and the more cards you see, the more likely you are to go off and just win. In case you don’t realize what I mean about the Jar being a win condition, think of cheap artifacts, memory jar, and then add in goblin welder. See what I mean? If I was going to MD Colossus, I would ditch something, almost anything, other then the Broken Jar.
We whom play Belcher should be looking for way’s to improve consistency and resiliency to this deck, not taking away from the deck’s focus. A main decked Colossus doesn’t help the deck go off turn one and two; it just helps in certain matchups. That is why tourney deck’s have sideboards, and the reason why the germans added Living Wish to the deck. What the deck needs is something to either helps it go off more constantly or to disrupt your opponent till you can smash their heads in. What we need is some idea’s to help with the main focus of the deck, like for instance, has anyone tried cutting back on some of the superfluous parts of the deck to add disruption? To smooth out our draws? To keep our decks from Belching and hitting a land 12 cards down and just losing because we shot our wad to go off first turn?

[Eastman]

Mono-U belcher is an ENTIRELY different deck.  The two are not comparable.

[LouGodKingofDustBunnys]

I agree with Eastman. Mono-blue Belcher is a control deck that kills with a combo, two land Belcher is a pure combo deck. That’s a difference of about 2-3 cigarette’s per round.

[Berserk]

Someone should post the decklist we're working off so we know what we're looking at here. I guess I'll assume you run two Living Wish? I'd take them out for Duress, or Unmask even. I'm trying to remember other cards that Belcher can afford to lose but none come to mind. Belcher has a really tight build that seems to need almost ever card in the deck. Post a list and let's pick it apart?

[checkered_dan]

Black Lotus   1
Mox Jet   1
Mox Sapphire   1
Mox Ruby   1
Mox Pearl   1
Mox Emerald   1
Mana Crypt   1
Lotus Petal   1
Lion's Eye Diamond   1
Sol Ring   1
Mana Vault   1
Grim Monolith   1
Chrome Mox   1
Chromatic Sphere   2
Dark Ritual   4
Elvish Spirit Guide   4
Tinder Wall   4
Land Grant    4
Channel   1
Bayou   1
Tropical Island   1

Draw   
Brainstorm   4
Timetwister   1
Yawgmoth's Bargain   1
Memory Jar   1
Necropotence   1
Yawgmoth's Will   1
Ancestral Recall   1
Windfall   1
Wheel of Fortune   1

Tutors   
Vampiric Tutor   1
Demonic Tutor   1
Demonic Consultation   1
Tinker   1

Defense   
Duress   4
Goblin Welder   1

Kill   
Goblin Charbelcher   4
Tendrils of Agony   1

This is the list I took to Mykeatog's Mox
After that I changed out the Tendrils for another Welder
I think the most expendable cards a this point are Brainstorms, the Germans only run 2-3 of them.  What I'm thinking now is that I go -1 Brainstorm -2 Chromatic Spheres +1 Darksteel Colossus +2 Pentaid Prisim.  

I think the prisim will work better than the spere because it doesn't cost you and extra mana to use it provided that you have two colors of mana available.  Whereas the sphere costs you 2 mana and gives you one, the prisim costs you 2 mana and gives you two.  It's even possible to use the prisim as a mana accelerant.  This turn, two moxes play prisim; next turn two moxes and two prisim counters.  I know the prisim doesn't draw into a card, but it does weld out and tinker away.  And if I ever decide to run living wish, a used and abused Prisim will still power Tolarian Academy.  
Woot!

[Gabethebabe]

I’ve been playtesting a version of 2 land belcher for a few weeks now, and I have a little input. As for you first question, putting the colossus in the main, I wouldn’t, since most of the time it simply wouldn’t do anything but clog your hand. Playing living wish main would give you the option to get the Colossus out of the board if you need it, so I think that would be the way to go..

Hmm... Please explain me what is good about Wishing for Colossus? How are you going to cast it?

[strick09]

As much as I like Pentad Prism (I run 4 in my oh-so-successful Type 1.5 build), I don't think the card-draw effect of ChromSphere can be overlooked... true, this deck runs several draw engines, but sometimes that 1 card you need is just 1 more card down. Plus they have good synergy with the tutors, and while the net cost of a pentad is 0 (more or less making it a free spell), the net cost of a chromatic sphere is only 1 (if you use it that turn) and it cantrips...digging is always good.
That said, I agree with you about the brainstorms being the weak link...and only because of the drawback (I would rather run impulses if they didn't cost 1U) of putting two cards back on top.
The synergy Prism has with Tinker/your artifact count (for tolarian) *is* good... how bad would -2 Brainstorm +2 Pentad hurt? I hate trading card-digging for upping the acceleration...free spells are certainly nice though!

Also... a single Tendrils of Agony maindeck is a MUST. This deck can get bogus turn 1 wins with Tendrils without needing Belcher at all. I've had some games where I forget I'm playing Belcher and think I'm playing Meandeath instead! It can always get turn 1 wins with Belcher too, of course...but why take a potential route to victory out? Unlike 1.5 Belcher, I *rarely* actually get a chance to USE my Goblin Welder. Most times I forget they're even in the deck at all.

[Lucentspirit]

As I recall, I hard cast a colossus via living wish on turn 1 at Gencon. I even had enough mana to cast a welder as counter bait before it. That was fun as hell. Belcher is capable of some VERY broken turn 1 plays.
        I've been playing with the idea of having a main deck colossus and  it's  not a bad way to go. Given the list above I'd trade out a duress for it.  
         I'd also like to note that mono blue belcher is NOT 2-land belcher. Mono blue belcher is really for the most part old school mono blue with belcher instead of morphling for a kill. With the exception of belcher they have almost no cards in common and their play style is completely different.
         Chromatic sphere is the #1 choice for color conversion in 2-land belcher. Every card is vital in this deck so color conversion that replaces itself is ideal. But you need more, I really prefer running 1 or 2 additional mana cylix because it plays well with the welders and tinker. This deck is Very inconsistant as far as what color mana will be available to you and you need  the 5th or 6th color converter to keep from getting screwed.

[Smmenen]

Mike, when are you going to write that Belcher primer you promised at Origins

[Moxlotus]

I have cut all Brainstorms and have only Tinker and Time Walk for blue spells.  This allows me to run Taiga instead of Tropical Island.  Tropical Island sucks.  The first Land Grant you basically always get the Bayou which means that you only need to hit 10 cards to kill your opponent with Taiga in the deck.  Also More Welders and Wishes were able to fit without a lot of blue.

[Negator13]

I have cut all Brainstorms and have only Tinker and Time Walk for blue spells.  This allows me to run Taiga instead of Tropical Island.  Tropical Island sucks.  The first Land Grant you basically always get the Bayou which means that you only need to hit 10 cards to kill your opponent with Taiga in the deck.  Also More Welders and Wishes were able to fit without a lot of blue.

You don't run Timetwister, Windfall, or Ancestral?

[Moxlotus]

I have cut all Brainstorms and have only Tinker and Time Walk for blue spells.  This allows me to run Taiga instead of Tropical Island.  Tropical Island sucks.  The first Land Grant you basically always get the Bayou which means that you only need to hit 10 cards to kill your opponent with Taiga in the deck.  Also More Welders and Wishes were able to fit without a lot of blue.

You don't run Timetwister, Windfall, or Ancestral?

No and I haven't missed them at all.  The ability to lose the trop island is so much better.  Since I cut that the only blue comes from Lotus Petal and Chromatic Spheres.  Ancestral and Time Walk switch back and forth a lot, but I haven't missed the twist or Windfall.  Iamfishman's build is what my build is based on.

[Negator13]

Well I know he's a very good Belcher player, but I've never seen his list. Care to share yours/his? My friend has been playing Belcher for awhile with multiple blue cards and he wants a more consistent, resilient build.

[Moxlotus]

Mana: 36
1-Bayou
1-Taiga
34-the standard Belcher mana and stuff like Tinder Walls

Spells:24
4-Belcher
1-Yawg Will
1-Demonic Tutor
1-Vamp
1-Demonic Consult
3-Spoils
4-Duress
1-Memory Jar
1-Tinker
1-Time Walk/Ancestral (I like Time Walk better, but team members disagree on this)
3-Goblin Welder
2-Living Wish
1-Wheel of Fortune

SB is constantly changing.  Includes the usual stuff mostly.  Living Wish can get I think 12 or 13 of the cards in the board, the others being Oxidize.

[Triple_S]

I played 2 Land Belcher at the first TSB tournament to a 2nd place finished and found the deck to be amazing and much more complex than it looks to be on first glance.  I used the same decklist as the t8 deck at Gencon except I substituted Desperate Ritual for Cabal Ritual.  The ability to use an ESG to play a Tinder Wall to fuel a DRitual won me atleast one game.

I hade Colossus in the SB but only sided it in a few times the entire day.  One note:  the Richmond meta was unexpectedly heavy w/ combo and I don't think Colossus is great there since you are dead before it swings twice.

[Harlequin]

Ive been playing with DS Ingot oddly enough. And it is great supliment for conversion (ie pentads or Chromatics).

Although i Play Bayou/Taiga 2 land belcher... wich is in many ways different than your standard bayou/Trop belcher.  Ive found it to give me a much more consistant "belch for the win" rarely rarely do i have to blech twice for the win.  But it leaves me lacking the colored department... I cut brainstorm and windfall completely and added a few more black and red tricks.  But i found ritual for darksteel ingot or wish for MWS for darksteel ingot is a safe play in many cases.  As for DC id say cut him all-together, and open side for better things.  One card i absolutly love on the side is Maze of Ith.  A great wish against a tinker->DC and it will buy you turn against Gobs and Oath.  In those matches usually a single turn that makes the difference.  As i have cut DC, Im also considering cutting tinker as well, and many games i side it out.  Frankly, i dont really have the blue to spend on it, although tinkering for Mem jar is a great way to ensure the win.
Ive play tested my particular BR belcher at numerous tourniments over the past few weeks and ive placed fairly consistantly one AWAY from the final bracket... wich is frustriating.  But i blame it mostly on an un-forgiving metagame where you iether face mad control, or trinny, or Arcane Lab.  But what can you do?

As a final note...  i have never seen a card cause more damage to belcher that demonic consultation... i will never see the point in running it in a deck primarily consisting of restricted cards.  you desimate a deck that deals damage based on the number cards in it... if you dont run tiaga then you need at least 20 cards in your deck to deal final damage, so why run the risk of milling down to 15 cards just to search for that one spell you need to blech?  It boggles the mind.

[Dante]

@ Harlequin - most of the time you're probably Consulting for Belcher, Dark ritual, or Duress.  The times you're not, it means you NEED card X or you will die next turn.  So what does it matter if you die to the consult trying to get your card or to whatever it was that was going to kill you if you didn't get it?

Bill

[Ferrismonk]

It really is a sort of madness to remove the chromatic spheres, the cantrip is VERY important.  I've used it to draw my vamp card to win the game before.  Also, in a pinch I've used them to draw a bunch of cards by welding out usless artifacts to draw more beef.  

To contribute to the belcher deck in general, I'd like to post my sleight modifications.  I run the Bayou/Taiga version with the following changes:

1. I run the Colossus main over memory Jar, I want to tinker for a win, not to draw more spells.  Also, it gives me an out vs. Null Rod/Ivory Mask/Stifle/etc.

2. I run 2 spoils instead of 3 so I can use Chrome Mox, most Taiga Belcher decks do not run it.

3. My only blue cards are Ancestral Recall, Tinker, and Timetwister.

4. I don't run Living Wish.  Instead I run my 4th Goblin Welder and 1 Oxidize Main.  The Oxidize has almost come out many times for the third spoils, but for now it remains.  It also allows you to win games you really should not win occasionally.

5. Since I don't run Living Wish, my sideboard is much more free to explore realy sideboard opportunities.  Here is my current Sideboard:

2 Oxidize
3 Artifact Mutation
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Taiga
2 City of Traitors

As you can see, with 4 Duress main, it is easier to survive against FOW, and after sideboard, Trinisphere is manageble.  The bolts are there for Mox monkeys and random stuff.  Mox monkey is still one of our worst threats.  A R/G metagame deck wrecks most combo and trinisphere decks, and it isn't pretty.  

All in all, Belcher is a great deck, but it has two weaknesses: FOW and Trinisphere.  By using less blue for Duress and having a strong sideboard, our consistancy increases and our bad matchups are responded to more adequately.

As a side note, I prefer city of traitors over Workshop because it can tap to activate belcher and spheres too.  Also the drawback is almost inconsequential.

[Negator13]

Since you site FOW as one of the two most effective cards against you, it seems logical to include Xantid Swarm in the sideboard. Any particular reason you left it out?

[Harlequin]

In my Bayou/Tiaga Belcher for blue spells i run: tinker, Twister, ancestral, and I have been toying with Limdul Vault.

Its aslo notable that i run 3 living wish, so its common for me to have tolarian on the board.

[Ferrismonk]

Since you site FOW as one of the two most effective cards against you, it seems logical to include Xantid Swarm in the sideboard. Any particular reason you left it out?

I have four main deck Duresses to help deal with the FOW problem.  I also have the Colossus backup and I run 4 Welders main.  That being said, Xantid swarms are good for the sideboard.  The reason I do not run them is two-fold:

1.  Most blue control decks have a way to deal with Goblin Welder, unfortunately these same tactics usually work against Swarm.  Examples are Fire/Ice, Lava Dart, Trike, and Swords to Plowshares

2.  Against counter heavy decks, I prefer to have more threats rather than more answers.  To use the old adage, I am the beatdown.  Thus I put in my 4 Negators.  Game 2 against a control deck I therefore have 4 Duress, 4 Belcher, 4 Phyrexian Negator and 1 Colossus.  That is a lot for a counter deck to deal with, especially when they are often Turn one or two.

I hope that helps a bit.

[Ferrismonk]

In my Bayou/Tiaga Belcher for blue spells i run: tinker, Twister, ancestral, and I have been toying with Limdul Vault.

Its aslo notable that i run 3 living wish, so its common for me to have tolarian on the board.

Does Tolarian Help you much?  It doesn't really help much early game, and if you make it to the late game, you usually need the wish for an answer.  Also, although I agree with your choice of blue cards   ,if you are playing only 3 blue spells, the extra blue does not make a large difference.  Wouldn't Mishra's Workshop or City of Traitors do better?  They help more against Trinisphere.

[Harlequin]

Well if you think about it...
Living wish costs 2... so right there you most likely have a land and a mox on the board (unless you used creature mana).  You have chromatic, LED, Mana cylix, and chrome mox to temporarily boost up your tolarian when you need it.  I find i wish more tolarian more than MWS if im getting a land.  I had Anceints tomb there for a while but tolarian can tap for 2 if you have 2 artifacts on the board... thats really not that hard to manage.  what i did for a while is I play tested on line with a friend with a 20 card side board.  I had him play practially ever deck in the "Vintage Decks to Beat" list.  I made little checks next to the cards i wished for and sided it.  when i was wishing for land, given the choice between MWS, Tolarian, and Ancients Tomb, it came out something like 8:10:3  respectively.  So i kept MWS, Tolarian and cut Tomb for some more useful stuff.  

Aslo against decks that run tolarian, you can use the new legend rules to destroy thiers if they beat you to it.  Ive never done that before, but its an option.

Aslo for a while i was playing wtih Divining top (as a supliment to brainstorm)