Foxy U/W control

[iccarus]

I'm posting this in newbie because I'm not sure where it's going yet...I'd rather it not get locked right away.

I'm starting to brainstorm some ideas for the spring vintage circuit, and I thought I'd put this list out here to see what we can come up with.  

White is growing in power for some reason.  We have some better options for kill conditions in the color and there are new tools that can truly help in the format.  Some old favorites (StP) are also getting their due in the format.

The most recent card that's caught my attention is Samurai of the Pale Curtain.  Because of how his ability works, he's almost the perfect hoser to plenty of decks in the environment.  For those who don't know:

Cost WW
2 / 2

Card Text Bushido 1 (When this blocks or becomes blocked, it gets +1/+1 until end of turn.) If a permanent would be put into a graveyard, remove it from the game instead.

Good stuff, if we can abuse him and buid a deck that allows us to get around the ability or doesn't rely heavily on the graveyard.

Think of the decks he shuts down once in play: Slaver, Tog, welder-based decks...just to name a few.

I'm currently pairing him with blue, because it provides some permission and plenty of drawing power.  Let's face it...parfait would be ideal if it weren't for the slow to start tax/rack engine.  Also, blue gives you a few more options for extra hate.

First, a tentative list and then I'll offer some extras that could be considered for such a deck.

Creature Base: 10
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4x Meddling Mage
2x Exalted Angel

Counters: 8
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain

Draw/Tutor: 13
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Brainstorm
4x Impulse
1x Mystical Tutor
3x Cunning Wish

Other: 5
2x Seal of Cleansing
3x Swords to Plowshares

Mana: 24
7x SoLo Moxen
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
5x Plains
4x Island

SB: options
1x Fact or Fiction
4x BEB
xx Energy Flux
2x Seal of Cleansing
1x Swords to Plowshares
xx Hurkyl's Recall
xx Tormod's Crypt
1x Disenchant
xx Ivory Mask/Gilded Light
xx Stifle
xx Back to Basics
1x DS Colossus/Tinker
xx Bounce spell (Unsummon, Capsize, Boomerang, Seal of Removal)
1x Gush
xx Annul
xx Abbeyance/Orim's Chant

Included cards:

Samurai: well duh

Meddling Mage: He's a strong hoser for many decks and can keep them jumping through hoops to try and get the win.  Played early, he's a pain to get around.

Angel: I'm testing her as a finisher right now, but also have considered using 1x Angel/1x Morphling to give more utility in win conditions.

Drain/Force: I'm still waiting for the holy trinity of must have counters.  For now, these two will have to do.

Draw: Everything here is pretty much a no-brainer.  For the record, Impulse was included because I was really having an issue finding instant speed draw that wasn't too high-cc or wasn't GY reliant (AK)

Seal: A pretty strong card right now.  I think it's an decent choice.

Swords: For those decks with creatures that just won't die any other way...

Cards to Consider:

Isochron Scepter: With many good instants, this could lead to a possible use for this card.  It is risky and is card disadvantage in many cases...but that's not always true.

Aether Vial: Kind of weak with only 8 two-drops, but also might help in the 3sphere matchup.

AK: Ruled out because it runs against the point of the Samurai.

Crucible: See AK

Sacred Ground: A possible option for the 7/10 era.

Damping Matrix: May be better than Null Rod in many respects.  Shuts down quite a few things when you think about it.

Daze: Can be good, but not an auto-include in this deck.

Wastes/Strips: Good stuff, but not as effective without Crucible in the deck.

Concerns:
-The loss of the GY as a zone to abuse could be a serious problem.  So many decks rely on the GY now, that it is really the area that most decks prepare hate for in the first place.  At the same time, not all hate stops it.
-Fragile Samurai.  He's only a 2/2 when not blocked, pretty much marking him as burn bait.
-3sphere:  Really, what deck doesn't worry about this?  The is partially why I stopped playing GAT all the time
-Land Disruption: A set of Wastes/Strips could be a good thing...but it still worries me in that it may dillute the mana base.  Of course, I could always just run only the on-color moxen and re-adjust that way.

Your thoughts?

[Khahan]

I think it has potential, but I have some concerns over some of the card choices (mostly SB options)

Fact or Fiction: Without a graveyard, this could really be used against you. Too risky.

Sacred Ground: Samurai is a replacement effect, meaning your lands won't be going to your gy. The ground won't trigger.

Damping Matrix: Why only SB? Seems to me that there are so many decks right now that rely on creatures. And a good deal of them rely on creatures with activated abilities. This doesn't touch anything in your own deck and I'd say it shuts down more different archtypes than Seal of Cleansing.

Isochron Scepter: Don't do it. First off, what do you take out to make room for it?  Second, they're more clunky and a bit slower than you think.

[Dalem]

I have a couple of questions for you actually.

How does the samurai hose Tog?
I'm under the impression that Tog doesn't need to recurse permanents, and instead wants to replay spells through will, or remove them to pump the Tog itself.  I might be missing something however.

Why would you want to run shoals in this deck?
I'm assuming that is what you are referring to with "the holy trinity of counters", but I don't see a diversity of casting costs in your blue spells.  The discussion I have seen only encourages the use of shoals in decks like Tog, which have many blue spells of differing cc which could be pitched without ruining their game.

You might not have been refering to shoals, if you weren't I'm sorry to have gotten off topic.


Other than that it looked fun.

[iccarus]

First off: I didn't even think of shoals.  I really don't even like shoals, to be honest.  I was not making a reference to any particular counterspell when I made that statement.

Second: Your comments on tog almost answered your own question.  A Samurai in play would shut down most of togs draw engine and would prevent them from using their graveyard to reach lethal damage.  Basically, they'd need 11 cards in hand (10+1 wish) to hit letal zerk range.  It also would limit the effectiveness of will to anything that was played BEFORE Samurai hit play.

Also, I should note that I left Time Walk off my original decklist and forgot to mention why in my post.  I'm always mixed on how necessary the card is in a control deck.  It keeps bouncing on and off my list.  Any thoughts on this?

[mr_rogers]

I think what Dalem was trying to get at is the samurai only removes permenants from the game, not non-permanent spells or any discarded spells. So AKs would not be removed by the samurai nor would anything tog uses really. So the question still is how does your deck deal with tog or other graveyard based decks that discard for a will relying on instants and sorerys rather than permenants?

The samurai however is a great choice against welder based stratagies.

[Toad]

Second: Your comments on tog almost answered your own question.  A Samurai in play would shut down most of togs draw engine and would prevent them from using their graveyard to reach lethal damage.  Basically, they'd need 11 cards in hand (10+1 wish) to hit letal zerk range.  It also would limit the effectiveness of will to anything that was played BEFORE Samurai hit play.

You are misunderstanding the way the Samurai works.

Samurai removes permanents from the game. Not cards. If Tog casts Intuition and gets 3 Accumulated Knowledge, then the 2 non-chosen Accumulated Knowledge and the Intuition will still go to the graveyard, since these are cards, not permanents.

That makes Samurai a pretty poor card against Tog.

[Dalem]

I must be mistaken then, I'm under the impression that samurai of the pale curtain refers to permanents.

  I believe that instants and sorceries never come into play, and therefore are not permanents.  As far as I know, when they resolve they generate their effect and then immediately go to the graveyard, without ever having been in play.  Have you read the rules?  If not then 400.2, and all of section 401, specifically 401.7, might be of interest.


EDIT: I seem to have been beaten.  I would like to add that I believe the samurai is great against most welder based decks, and I only sought to dispute the one aspect of your statement.

[iccarus]

Wow, I spaced on that for some reason.  This is what happens when you have graveyard hate on the brain.  For some reason, I keep thinking of planar void when I think of Samurai and it's really messing with me.

So, it's not as good against tog and I admit it.  Any thoughts on helping this matchup then?  I still don't want it to stifle discussion of any deck that can abuse/use it.

[Dalem]

I feel like it needs more card draw.  I think that impulse and brainstorm are great, but they are affecting card quality, not quantity.  I have very limited experience, but I have found replenishing my hand to be crucial.

I play a bit of tog, and I like the AK+intuition engine a lot, but I don't think there is room for it.  Maybe you can think of another way to get the draw.

I am a little concerned about drain outlets.  The wishes and angels are great sinks so I'm probably worrying about nothing.