Control Salvagers... Is combo control viable??

[E Face]

The subject of my topic is relatively simple...  I have seen a fair number of Salvagers lists, some using subpar cards like Trinket Mage, the moderately succesful Oath of Auriok, and just other lists with one common goal but many different ways of approaching it. Salvagers combo is a pretty decent combo, but an innovative list that can domiante just hasnt been found. I'm not saying that my list is going to be the next big thing, nor am I saying that my list is the best one out there so far. But I do believe that the combo can become competitive with enough people paying attention to the deck and its archtype. Now the list with explanations following.

ControlSalvagers v.1:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
4 Brainstorm
4 Auriok Salvagers
3 Duress
2 Intuition
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard: (currently)
3 Serenity
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Annul
1 Balance
1 Platinum Angel
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Pyrite Spellbomb

The Combo: 6
The Auriok Salvagers combo with Black Lotus is no secret. You can generate infinite mana of any color once you achieve enough white mana to recur the Lotus for other colors. With a Pyrite spellbomb you can recur it enough times to kill your opponent and a Platinum Angel as well. The combo is nice because Stroke of Genius is another kill card, and the combo only requires 7 slots to fill with two win cards.

Disruption: 15
This deck has one very big thing that sets it apart from many other combo decks: 15 slots devoted to disruption. With the Mages, FoW, Mana Leaks and Duresses it is very easy to stall the other opponents strategy long enough to go off. Mana Leaks are here because I own no Drains. The Mages are also incredible at protecting the combo. After game 1 your Mages turn into Anti-Sideboard cards. Depending on the deck you are facing, it is possible to drop Mage calling the potential sideboard card you expect to face or know.

Tutors: 7
This deck packs the most powerful and potent tutors around. All of them at that. Between Demonic, Vamp, Mystical, and Enlightened it makes it easy to fetch whatever you need to win. Intuition is an I Win card in this deck once a Salvager is on the table, because the Lotus and the Spellbomb can be in the graveyard when you go off, so fetching the two and a third card wins games. Gifts Ungiven is a very powerful card in this deck chock full of one of's. Intuition is also supremely more powerful than Trinket Mage, and is one card i have yet to see be played in Salvagers.

Draw Power: 6
Brainstorm is just a staple of every combo deck. Every control deck too. I even keep a player set in my car just in case I get pulled over and need an answer for a cop or if i wanna pick up some chicks. Its inclusion it undeniable. Ancestral is Ancestral, and makes opening hands look better than they are. Fact or Fiction is a bomb in this deck, 'nuff said. Stroke can be added here too, but its a kill card, not a 6 mana Ancestral in this deck.

Extra Goodies: 3
I have Tinker -> DSC in the deck as an alternative option if you cant rely on the combo to win. Yawgmoth's Will... is there any reason not to play with one of the most powerful (if not THE most powerful) cards in Vintage. This card wins games every time. Just remember that you cannot combo out on a Will turn, saccing the lotus is all bad in that case.

Mana: 23
The deck is fully powered (or should i say mine is fully 5 proxied (<3 SCGP9 tourneys)). Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault power out 4 casting cost cards so fast that its going out of style. The rest is self explanatory, 5 fetches and 4 basics because of wastes and crucible, but I think that the strip can come out for another plains or swamp.

Sideboard: 15
My metagame is primarily full of Workshop, CS, Dragon, and other notable decks such as Oath, Fish, and FCG sprinkled in. Serenity is crucial, Swords and Seals help out against Dragon. Balance owns aggro. And the Platinum comes in against combo.


So what I want to know is if this combo control deck has any merit and I would also like some feedback on my list and I would love to hear any and all suggestions on improving this deck.

Thanks... post first, watch Zoolander second!

[gothcracker]

i hear mages fear the goblins.

[oldbsturgeon]

vegeta in another post made the suggestion to either run the full stips or none at all. while im not sure that i totally agree for all decks that run them, i dont really like the idea of having only the 1 in the deck. i think by the time you would draw it, it wouldnt matter.
 i would maybe run a library in its place. since you are doing the 5 proxy thing, that may not be an option, but could make more sense. i would even like tolarian academy more than the strip, despite a low artifact count.
if the strip works though for you keep it.

[ELD]

since you're running intuition, why not run AK or DA in the meddling mage slot.  It seems to me that this deck would roll over and die to control.  Bumping up the card drawing would help that match up tremendously.

[warble]

My first reaction would be, you can't POSSIBLY call this a control deck.  With 23 mana, you absolutely CANNOT guarantee the first turn mana leak.  Also, your curve will not guarantee a duress, or even a meddling mage on turn 2.  With the low mana curve, another factor is surviving until you hardcast your salvager.

If you expect to win in type 1 against Control Slaver, which is your #1 priority, you need to expect a long, gruelling battle with forces and drains coming into play on turn 10.  In this case, your low mana count may be acceptable, but the presence of a meddling mage against slaver is a joke and a half.  You can name 2 cards and I will still tinker for trisk, pop the one that hurts, and slave you.  In the alternative, I will beat you down with a greaves'd platinum for which you have no answer.  And if I'm a truly "bad" slaver my sword of fire and ice on my gorilla shaman smacks down your mages like a hedgehog at the arcade.

The only instance I can see this being remotely feasible is against a combo deck itself, but in that case you're relying solely on the Force aspect, accepting your low blue card count and bad mana curve will not allow the first turn Mana Leak even if you get lucky and go first.

If you want budget type 1, go fish with 26 mana and man-lands.  That will screw your mana curve, but at least you won't get smacked up by control slaver and combo because you were running force with low blue count and a bad mana curve.  And if you really have to do salvager, go oath/salvager and beat the oath mirror as well.

All I can see is in your deck is an oath/salvager that loses to oath, has a bad match against slaver and combo, and in the raw event that you draw both mox pearl, jet and mage in your opening hand, yes your deck is beautiful I'll agree.  But if control slaver can draw lotus tinker crypt it's much more beautiful. MMMM drain force backup for tinker.   That's control, not duress first turn mage second turn backed by force.  That just ain't fly.

[E Face]

@ oldbsturgeon:

I think I do agree with you about only having one strip in the deck, and so far it hasnt helped much at all, so I am thinking about putting something in its place. I dont like the Academy though, because with the low artifact count it could be bad to draw early with not enough artifacts to support it.

@ELD

I hadnt thought of the AK or DA yet, bumping up the card draw in the deck will make it faster, because it does face problems racing other combo decks. I like the mages because they aren't in the deck to play control, they are simply stall cards while I set up for the combo. I think that DA might be the better choice in this case, because AK mirror matchups would definitely be more favorable for the other player.

@warble

This deck is not a control deck. It does not try to gain control of the match and then win later with the combo. The goal of the deck is to survive and stall then win out on one turn. Since I have no drains, I often drop a Mage calling Drains themsleves, which gives me a significant advantage. Mage for Goblin Welder or TFK is also sometimes enough to stall long enough to win. Seal of Cleansing can handle a Lightning Greaves, but I dont see Greaves enough to worry about it.

But if control slaver can draw lotus tinker crypt it's much more beautiful

Saying that a deck rolls over to another deck's God hand is a bad reason to play something is just ridiculous, because if any deck draws that hand, they deserve to win that game. If I draw lotus salvagers crypt with any tutor or kill card in my hand I win turn one. Thats why we play Type 1. But who draws those hands regularly?

[Rico Suave]

Out of curiosity...

What does Meddling Mage stop that Mana Drain cannot?  

If it doesn't stop anything worthwhile, then perhaps it'd be better to play Drain so that instead of a 10 turn clock you get free mana during your mainphase to help combo out.

That aside, there's a certain threshold where too much disruption causes the deck to lack threat density.  I'm not sure why taking out threats and replacing them with answers would help this deck.  This looks like 4 color control with a more complicated win.

[giddygorgon]

Out of curiosity...

What does Meddling Mage stop that Mana Drain cannot?  

I think he said the reason was that he had no drains.

[Rico Suave]

I'm sorry.  I read that too.  He used Leak in place of Drain, though.

Still, a 10 turn clock that may or may not affect your opponent's hand is just mediocre in a combo deck.  At least a Counterspell forces them to spend mana casting something before nullifying it.

[Tristal]

Out of curiosity...

What does Meddling Mage stop that Mana Drain cannot?  

Tendrils of Agony.

[gothcracker]

yeah i know meddling mage doesnt really sound effecient. but ive played against this deck and the mages do more damage then one would think. just think about this calling for various cards in different decks.

Slaver: Thirst for Knowledge or Goblin Slaver

Any Tendrils deck: Tendrils of Agony

TLC: Charbelcher

Workshop: Juggernaut, WELDER, 3sphere, or Smokestack

Oath: Oath of Druids

I mean yes mana drains would stop all these but once. Where as Meddling Mage might possibly stop it for the game and save your counters for other potent cards.

[E Face]

Tristal hit it on the head when he named Tendrils for the Mages. The Mages are more efficient than a lot of people give them credit for. Many times I in fact call Mana Drain against the various control decks out there since it doesnt affect my game at all. Slim Shadys (Meddling Mage=MM= Marshall Matthers=Eminem=Slim Shady) are very effective games 2 and 3 after I can devise a strategy to prevent opponents disruption. Many times an unanswered Mage for Welder or Trinisphere is enough to get the combo into place and win.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandevent.php?Article=9041

Two T8 decks at SCG Syracuse on Saturday featured two decks running 4 maindeck Meddling Mages each, 3rd place "Bird Shit" and 4th place 3cc. That is pretty good proof right there that Slim Shady is a powerful enough card to run four of in a deck.

[rebel2cause]

I have aso been testing Salvagers, and I found that Trinket Mage is a wonderfull addition to the deck.  The ability to tutor up answers as well as win conditions, not to mention mana sources can really help out in a tight spot.  This is the list that I've been using.

Win, 10:
4 Auriok Salvagers
3 Cunning wish (for BrainFreeze)
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Black Lotus
1 Chromatic Sphere

Tutor, 10:
3 Trinket Mage
3 Intuition
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Draw, 9:
4 Brainstorm
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall

Countermagic 8:
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain

Misc. 2:
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Engineered Explosives

Mana, 21 (22, counting Lotus):
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Tolarion Academy

Total:
60

The combo was explained earlier, so I won't go into that.

Trinket Mage is able to fetch up Engineered Explosives, which can get rid of pesky Welders and Moxen, as well as Psychatogs, Meddling Mages and even Trinispheres or Spheres of Resistance every once in a while.  The added capability of getting combo pieces or just needed mana makes this little guy an automatic choice for me, though I havn't tested without them.

Before I was running straight U/W, and have found the addition of black most useful in testing (though you already knew that, otherwise why would you be running it).

I was running Tinker/Colosous, but decided that more draw/tutor was needed in the deck and cut them.

As for the land debate, I'm beginning to question Academy in this deck, and think that the Library might be the way to go, though I am unable to, as I'm trying to get by on 10 proxies or less, and own no Power (hence the lack of Time Walk, which I'm sure someone would have questioned sooner or later).

I think that I will test the Meddling Mages, and see what they have to offer.

Today I got very little testing in, but what I did get looked like this, (and I read the rules, and it says that posting win percentages will just attract flames, so before posting I would like to say that though the players playing the decks were fine, some amount of luck/chance was in effect here, as always in this game, so future testing will reveal if these wins were only flukes or not):

TPS: 2-0 (I was surprised by this, but I managed to combo him out, making smart choices on what to counter so that I could buy myself time)

tog: 1-1 (Didnt have time for the third game, but I plan on playing this matchup a lot more)

Before the addition of black:
TPS: 2-1 (for the same reasons)

Tog: About even (I cant remember the results exactly, but I think it was something like 3-3 when we had to call it quits)

Meandeck Oath: 2-0 (that is what surprised me the most, and the wins I think may have been a lot of luck, and perhaps a player who was rather new to the build, though he had been playing oath in extended before.  More testing is needed i suppose, to see what kind of percentage I can put up against this deck.)

Ank Sligh (I know, I know, but it's a freind playing around with it, and though testing is testing, so I decided to post it): 2-0

What other 1 mana artifacts could be included into the deck?  Aether Spellbomb might work.

[Tristal]

If you have infinite damage with a recurring Pyrite Spellbomb, why do you need to waste 3 slots on Cunning Wish->Brain Freeze?  Not that Cunning Wish is terrible on its own, but it sure seems like this deck would value quick card draw more than utility, given that its win condition is infinite damage + infinite draw.

EDIT: Scratch that, you need more mana, not more draw.  22 is not remotely enough, it seems like.

[rebel2cause]

@ tristal: I was testing with more mana, and just kept getting flooded, though that was with like 27-28 sources.  Maybe something like 25 would be around right, because I was drawing a little bit to few in testing, having to mulligan rather often.

@ e-face: You're using about 23 mana sources.  Does that work well for you?

@ tristal again: Cunning Wish is an amazing card by itself, fetching what you need to stall before you can win, like Orim's Chant, STP, Hurkyl's recall etc.  Stalling is pretty much what this deck does, then just win all in one turn.  Plus sometimes you need the extra win condition, or just to cast the Wish going to get FOF, Stroke Of Genius (another win condition, though sometimes just a way to draw cards) or fetching a counter of some kind.  Every deck can benifit from utility, I think.

[Tristal]

Why are you wasting your time Wishing for FoF when you can just win already?  This is a combo deck, right?

[rebel2cause]

No, it's a combo control deck.  If I was playing straight combo I would play TPS, because it's much faster, but I preferr the control element in there.

[koxl0003]

I'm going to respond mostly to the original poster's list and ideas, but first some background on me. I've been playing Salvagers since September as my deck of choice in 5 Proxy Vintage tournaments. I own no power, no Mana Drains. I have made 3 Top 8's, one with 50 + people in the tournament, and have not finished lower than 15th. Search for all posts
by me and you'll be able to see the evolution of my build.

Now, on to specifics of the current thread author's build. I am mainly
concerned with the following:

1. Maindeck Stroke of Genius, Fact or Fiction, 6 Duals, 3 colors.

In order: Stroke of Genius can be a kill card, I get that, in fact I use it myself, in the sideboard. It's fine if you have it then combo off, but what about the times you draw it in your opening hand? For this and other reasons (lack of drains etc.) I run Cunning Wishes to fetch the Stroke if I have no other kill card handy. In all the tournaments I have played in with Salvagers, I have only killed with Stroke of Genius once. The vast majority of the time I have been able to use Pyrite Spellbomb. Of course, I run 4 Trinket Mage, and 2 Pyrites, so perhaps my results are not indicative of what your results would be.

I can see how Fact or Fiction might be better for you than for me, since you have Mana Crypt and Mana Vault as well as Sol Ring, whereas I have only Sol Ring in addition to 3 Moxes, however I still feel it's too expensive/slow for the deck.  Perhaps your testing shows otherwise. My advice is to move Stroke to the Sideboard, cut Fact or Fiction, and put 2 Cunning Wish in their place. This is the other benefit of being able to Wish for Swords to Plowshares Game 1, and other Instants should you choose to include them.

Next: 6 Duals, 3 Colors. My orginal list had 8 Duals (4 Tundra, 4 Volcanic)
and I found that I was getting wrecked by Wastelands far too often.
So I cut the Volcanics and the Red sideboard cards I was using, and went down to 3 Tundra. This worked, but was still vulnerable to Wastelands.
I can see how the Black is very nifty. Vampiric/Demonic are really good. Yawgmoth's Will is clearly one of the most powerful cards ever printed. Duress is also solid. I'm still considering trying a Black splash myself, but
I am concerned about stretching the manabase too far. With Wastelands everywhere, only 4 Basics seems like a bad idea. At the very least,
I would reccomend replacing the Strip Mine with another Basic land (your
choice).

Also:  Trinket Mages are definitely not subpar! Having Black Lotus numbers 2-5 is quite good, and the 2/2 body is not a bad side effect. Especially with Crypt and Vault you'd have no problems playing them quite quickly. It's also quite fun when people have to counter a 2/2 common
creature or lose.

Lastly, I started using Intuition myself in January. It's really good,
obviously, and belongs in the deck for so many reasons.

Just for reference, my most recent list can be seen here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21411