[Discussion] Why Are You Still Playing TPS?

[Hi-Val]

I was fishing around with Doomsday again recently and it again reinforced that I would never play TPS again. Anyone who has lost after Desiring for 8 with TPS will understand that the deck name stands for "That Play Stalled." So why does TPS show up and not Doomsday? Here's a brief list of the good and bad from both decks:

Doomsday:
+ pretty assured win after Doomsday
+ 12 Disruption components vs. 8 in TPS
+ Faster clock than TPS
+ I had a hand in inventing it
- Hard to play
- You lose half your life, so passing the turn against 5/3 can be painful.
- Sometimes you have to pass the turn and ride it out

TPS:
+ More maindeck artifact bounce
- STALLS OUT
- Just about as prone as DDay to being Stifled/disrupted
- STALLS OUT
- Was not invented by me, so less sexy.

Why is TPS still showing up? What am I missing about Doomsday? Do people love Rebuild that much?

[Kowal]

1)  Rebuild is just that good.

2)  A player that isn't horribly harassed by a very very solid doomsday hand that knows what the deck does can stop it much simpler than TPS.  If TPS fails, it almost always has enough gas to try again the following turn.  If Doomsday fails, I can guarantee you don't have the gas to try again, because it's all removed from the game.

[Hi-Val]

Now at this point it should be noted that TPS has 1, rarely 2 more maindeck bounce spells. With DDay being able to match that if it has to, I don't consider it to be huge.

Also, TPS doesn't rebound the next turn after it fizzles. If you counter that Dark Rit (which is what I think is the essential card to TPS) in the middle of their storming up, they stall horribly, having to rely on a topdeck in most cases to build back up. But fizzling or being countered makes it hard for TPS to go off in the near future, much less, next turn.

I will give you though that DDay has a much more easily understood kill, and so I can see how that would be easier to stop.

[Thug]

Judging from some of your statements you seem to have little clue about how to play TPS. My first simple assumption is that you like Doomdsay much more beacuse you know the deck much better which makes it perform better for you.

- STALLS OUT

TPS is probably the most consistent combo-deck there is, and this is one of its main strength. You know what to expect from your deck/draws.
The only reason why TPS might stall out if it get's heavily disrupted, but it doesn't stall out before any other (combo) deck would

- Just about as prone as DDay to being Stifled/disrupted

Stifle is only good when used on Fetchland, or the random (desperate) Desire. Against doomdsay it is good all of the time since they have to use a Storm spell to win the game and don't get to protect is as much as TPS does.

TPS handles disruption much better because it has actual card-drawing.
Doomdsay folds to every single sideboard card ever printed

Anyone who has lost after Desiring for 8 with TPS will understand that the deck name stands for "That Play Stalled."

To be fair, Desire is a much better card in TPS than it is in Doomsday, since TPS has much more spells to boost up the storm count, and it can afford the mana cost much easier.

If you counter that Dark Rit (which is what I think is the essential card to TPS) in the middle of their storming up, they stall horribly, having to rely on a topdeck in most cases to build back up.

It's not a suicidal combo deck that tries to go for the win despite what the opponent might do. Almost all of the time when you go for the winning spell, you know you're opponent won't be able to stop it.

It should also be noted that TPS topdecks much much better, because it has very few to none dead cards, and runs actual card-draw.

---

Oh yeah, and TPS originally came from dutch "comboish" soil, so you really can't go wrong with it.

Koen

[virtual]

If you think TPS stalls out, try waiting a few turns until you attempt to go off.  

I've had lots of success with TPS @ tournaments, but when I was first testing it, it seemed like a pile.  After a while I learned how to recognize when it's possible to go off.  The deck isn't as fast as Deathlong, or certainly Tendrils, but it's a different deck entirely, and it has a different game-plan.  Some TPS builds even run mana drain in the SB...

TPS has trouble if you attempt to go off before establishing a decent mana base.  A lot of its bombs are just too mana intensive to attempt to cast 2 in a row until you've established a base.  That's why those same cards aren't in tendrils...

Anyways, in my testing I've always prefered TPS to Doomsday.  It has proven time and time again in the Italian meta, and I haven't heard much about Doomsday since Smemmen took it to the top.  

Regardless, they are different decks, both are combo, but they have different ideas of how to win.  Oranges are better than apples anyways...

-Virtual

[Hi-Val]

I guess my other question is, if you have to wait turns to develop the right manabase and draw enough cards, why are you playing a combo deck? That's trying to shoehorn it into Control's role. I mean, if it's a consistent deck but always consistent on turn 3-4, why not play DDay/Deathlong/D4RG0N instead?

As far as TPS being able to go off with more protection, how is this possible when it runs 4 less disruption cards than DDay and needs to see far more spells to go off, and ESPECIALLY when it uses Draw-7s to get there? How is it any less succeptible to Stifle, when the kill in TPS also requires storm?

As far as topdecking goes, drawing from the recent Waterbury decklist, let's look at the cards, when ripped off the top of the deck in the mid/lategame, read "I Win":

Justin Bransfield
3rd Place
Playing TPS

3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Frantic Search
2 Rebuild
1 Tinker
1 Cunning Wish
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Force of Will
1 Time Spiral
1 Mind's Desire
4 Dark Ritual
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Duress
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Memory Jar

So that's Twister, Gifts, Time Spiral, Necro/Bargain, Jar, Tinker, Will, Demonic, and possibly Mystical. Most of these cards are pretty mana-intensive to choke a win out of on the turn that you draw them. Let's look at Doomsday:

4 Doomsday
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Timetwister
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
4 Unmask
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Beacon of Destruction

Here we've got 4 DDay, Will, Twister, DT, Necro, and again possibly Demonic. What's the difference between these eight "I Win" cards and the ones in TPS? 5 of them (DDays and Demonic) GUARANTEE a win on this turn or the next. That's what I think the greatest strength of Doomsday is; being able to cast a spell that assures a win, not a possible stall.

As far as it rolling to all the sideboard hate in existence, I am not sure what you mean. TPS rolls to the same hate. If you mean graveyard removal, Doomsday can easily win when combo pieces have been removed. It's not as easy, but it's not forgone.

Regarding TPS's "superior" draw power off the topdeck, what do you mean that it has no dead cards? The only one in DDay is Beacon, and Hurkyl's Recall is pretty useless (I know you can bounce your damn moxes) against Madness. That's still a terrible topdeck.

Your claim that Doomsday is a "suicidal combo deck" that tries to go off regardless of what the opponent has couldn't be further from the truth. When you play it, DDay is like TPS with -4 Bad, +4 DDay. You don't do stupid stuff if your opponent has an answer to it, you figure out how to get past that answer (and thanks to DDay's additional disruption, it is easier).

How is Mind's Desire better in TPS than in Doomsday? In DDay, it reads "4 Storm? Guess you win!" and in TPS, Desiring for less than 5 is pretty much worthless. I understand that you're aiming towards its specialized use in DDay, but saying that it's better in TPS because you can make more storm is weak; DDay and TPS are only a few cards off and can both generate high enough levels of storm for it to do something. Remember that if it needs to, DDay can be played just like TPS but with 4 more Vampiric Tutors in the deck.

I will say though, being from Dutchieland does give a point towards TPS...

[Thug]

I guess my other question is, if you have to wait turns to develop the right manabase and draw enough cards, why are you playing a combo deck? That's trying to shoehorn it into Control's role. I mean, if it's a consistent deck but always consistent on turn 3-4, why not play DDay/Deathlong/D4RG0N instead?

'Cause winning on turn 4 does the same thing as winning on turn 2, it results in a game win.
TPS is more controllish than other combo decks, but it gave up really little broken plays, and stil has a lot of "i win" combinations, but it also has a really solid plan besides that.

As far as TPS being able to go off with more protection, how is this possible when it runs 4 less disruption cards than DDay and needs to see far more spells to go off, and ESPECIALLY when it uses Draw-7s to get there? How is it any less succeptible to Stifle, when the kill in TPS also requires storm?

It takes a little longer to set up, but you also get so see a lot more cards. And Stifle really is near useless against TPS, with the amount of search in the deck you win through Will most of the time, and this means you will just Duress your opponent again before playing the Tendrils. The same counts for Necro and Bargain.

Here we've got 4 DDay, Will, Twister, DT, Necro, and again possibly Demonic. What's the difference between these eight "I Win" cards and the ones in TPS? 5 of them (DDays and Demonic) GUARANTEE a win on this turn or the next. That's what I think the greatest strength of Doomsday is; being able to cast a spell that assures a win, not a possible stall.

First of all Doomsday can spell "I win" but also "I lose", getting a draw-spell countered means you will just have to topdeck some new threat.
And get over the Stalling, its just not going to happen, period.

Second TPS has a more stable mana base to fall back on. In doomsday you rarely cast Doomdsday by tapping 3 lands, it often involves a Ritual and this means you will have to draw another ritua/landl to play your next Doomsday

Third doomsday often gave up its whole hand to try to win, while TPS might just be holding back 2/3 cards.

Personally I like TPS with slightly more Bombs (Gift Ungiven reads "I Win" as much as doomdsay does, and you dont even have to wait a turn, giving your opponent no time to draw an answer)

As far as it rolling to all the sideboard hate in existence, I am not sure what you mean. TPS rolls to the same hate. If you mean graveyard removal, Doomsday can easily win when combo pieces have been removed. It's not as easy, but it's not forgone.

I was talking about REB, Sphere, Labaratory, Chalice, Stifle.
And doomsday is also far more vulnerable to cards people play maindeck: Ancestral, Trini, Draw-Sevens, Wasteland/Strip Mine.

Your claim that Doomsday is a "suicidal combo deck" that tries to go off regardless of what the opponent has couldn't be further from the truth. When you play it, DDay is like TPS with -4 Bad, +4 DDay. You don't do stupid stuff if your opponent has an answer to it, you figure out how to get past that answer (and thanks to DDay's additional disruption, it is easier).

I didn't means it was 100% suicidal, but it interacts with the opponent a lot less than TPS does, not uncommon you have to play a Doomsday while not knowing every single card in your opponents hand.

Koen

[ELD]

TPS is a playable deck.  Doomsday is a pile.  It is not a pile because it cannot win matches.  It is a pile because it has virtually no advantage over TPS.  Doomsday is much easier to disrupt than TPS.  

Land Distruction is much more useful against Doomsday.  Passing the turn can often mean that some LD will make your comboing off impossible.  At that point you just lose to decking yorself.  

Bounce in Doomsday is terrible compared to TPS.  Look at 3sphere for example.  That passing the turn back because of Doomsday is going to mean you have to handle 3sphere again, as they can just cast it again on their turn.  It will have to be countered or discarded to combo off the standard route.  Welder trumps both of those.  

In TPS, the bounce is actually good as it adds to the storm count.  Often, it allows you to produce mana.  Rebuild is just amazing in TPS as it allows you to cycle it after Vampiric/Mystical Tutor to get what can often be an uncounterable win.  In doomsday you're looking at cycling into what.  A doomsday, which truthfully doesn't even need to get countered because the entire combo is vulnerable as well.  

My main problem with Doomsday is the fact that you have to pass so often after casting Doomdays.  This makes the hand disruption worse than it needs to be.  Your opponent can draw so many cards that just destroy things.  Any deck running U can rip force.  Workshop can draw 3sphere, Tangle Wire, Chalice or Sphere of Resistance.  Null Rod decks have a chance to resolve it, often without accelaration.   Combo can often kill you before you get your turn back.  

I see no reason to run Doomsday at all.  I've tested Deathlong.  If you want to run a deck that does tons of damage to itself try that out.  It typically goes off turn 2 and is much more resiliant.  It may be one of the better decks in the format, as it has a really good match up vs most anything, and can randomly win on the first turn vs bad match ups.

[The Atog Lord]

My main problem with Doomsday is the fact that you have to pass so often after casting Doomdays.

One day I was playing Doomsday against Master Tap's Mono Green beatdown deck. Mater Tap had, I believe, no disruption at all in his deck. A few turns into the game, I resolve Doomsday, confident that I would win on my next turn. Master Tap then draws a card, looks at my tiny library, and casts Krosan Reclaimation to force me to shuffle Doomsday into my deck. I lost terribly, because Master Tap made me shuffle a card into my library.  I took Doomsday apart that night. The deck is just too fragile. There is too much hoping that the opponent doesn't topdeck something good.

Also, ELD is right about Death Long. I think it's the best combo deck in the format. It has a fairly consistent second turn kill, and can get around disruption.