[Discussion] Adapting Tog to win in this metagame.

[MaxxMatt]

Personally, I consider those versions of Control Slaver to be--dare I say it--strictly superior to Tog.

Anytime a deck with Duresses, ReBs and a good blue draw engine is going to face a deck with ReBs and a good blue draw engine, the first deck will win almost any match.

Tog with 3-4 ReBs in his side is really good against GothSlaver because while the last one can only outdraw the opponent, trying to win with his few bombs, the first one can do the same, but it can selectively disrupt opponent's hand. The second strategy would usually break any control mirror by far.

[Smmenen]

What you are dealing with is a deck with a higher threat density than yours. Goth Slaver can throw wave after wave of draw at you, and if even one resolves, you usually sink. It becomes the beatdown deck and Hulk becomes control, if that makes sense. And Goblin Welder buys back tempo a lot better than Psychatog these days.

That's not really precise.  The goal is actually to be the control deck.  The control deck acheives that role by resolving their draw (which makes it appear to be the beatdown).  

The problem is that if Goth Slaver is running Deeps, that could be an issue.  But I think Tog has the advantage of not having expensive artifacts and useless goblins if you can keep the Goth Slaver's draw/tinker from resolving.

[Revvik]

What you are dealing with is a deck with a higher threat density than yours. Goth Slaver can throw wave after wave of draw at you, and if even one resolves, you usually sink. It becomes the beatdown deck and Hulk becomes control, if that makes sense. And Goblin Welder buys back tempo a lot better than Psychatog these days.

Not true.  The only draw spells that can't resolve are Thirst for Knowledge and Intuition (technically a draw spell since it aids draw).  These spells are good for putting your win condition in the yard, and if you can't, then Goblin Welder becomes a useless f-ing goblin, who couldn't buy tempo with Trump's fortune.  Control Slaver then is forced to rely on AKs (if it runs any) which Hulk can then capitalize on.

And yes, Hulk becomes control, with 1/3 of the deck devoted to saying "No" to Control Slaver.

The only reason I can think of to not run Hulk Smash at this point is the massive reliance on dual lands.  Crucible / Waste becomes a massive problem, and is part of the reason I did so miserably against Stax.

[onelovemachine]

I would say the deck relies on fetchlands more than duals these days.  I think your point was clear though that the manabase is the one scary part of running tog, but with the plethora of suggested manabases I think at least one could be tailored to fit a particular tournament scene even in the face of decks like stax.

[The Atog Lord]

I haven't played against Tog in quite some time, so perhaps something fundamental has changed between Tog's old build and its current incarnation. However, in all of my experience, Control Slaver has a great matchup against Tog.

So, why is this the case? Tog has a strong Control base with counters and Duress, and a powerful draw engine. And I don't even play AK in my Control Slaver deck. So how in the world was I regularly beating Tog?

One of the keys, as has been said before, is threat density. Control Slaver has a lot more cards for Tog to worry about than Tog has for Control Slaver to worry about. Mindslaver is not some big bulky useless artifact clogging up your hand; it is a spell which, if resolved and activated, ends the game.

Further, Control Slaver has a quicker draw engine than Tog. Thirst is, indeed, a fast, more temo-friendly spell than Intuition.

Finally, one of the most important things to consider is that Tog has a lot more work to do than Control Slaver. In the beatdown/control paradigm, Control Slaver is actually the combo deck in the match. Trying to out-control Tog is not a winning proposition. Rather, keep in mind that in order to win, Tog usually needs to lock up the board to win, whereas Slaver can win simply by slipping a single spell past Tog's counter wall. Control Slaver has a much easier job than Tog in this match. Adding elements to help Control Slaver pretend that its the control deck in the match is not going to help it.

[Windfall]

I have to echo Rich here.  I have always enjoyed the fact that Blue based control is often a good matchup for Slaver.  The reason is because Slaver just casts something that needs to be dealt with every turn, including turn one.

Let's look at the first turn.  Barring a broken opening of multiple Moxen and Intuition, Tog usually either Brainstorms or plays a Duress.  Slaver, on the other hand, either plays Brainstorm, Duress, or Goblin Welder.

Turn two - Tog wants to either Mana Drain or Intuition.  Slaver wants to either Mana Drain or cast Thirst.  So, Thirst draws cards quicker than Intuition draws cards.

I don't run AKs in Slaver either, and I think it's terrible for a number of reasons.  The main thing is, I just don't need them.  But, AKs by themselves are not very good; which is another weakness for Tog - It might have AKs and no Intuition, and my Thirsts are going to be a lot faster and more efficient.  Good luck trying to keep up.  By the time you start resolving Deeps and other slow draw, I'll already be taking your turns and you'll be casting Deep Analysis twice on me and losing 3 life.

     ~Mark B.

[jpmeyer]

I love how people are like "Yeah, well Tog has Duress and REB!" as if Control Slaver doesn't as well...

[Revvik]

Your points make sense on their own, but broken openings happen on both players' side, & Goblin Welder does NOT need to be dealt with.  

When playing against the Control Slaver decks (not just Gothenburg, although that is the easiest to beat), there are a few spells that 'Tog cannot let resolve:

- Thirst for Knowledge
- Mindslaver
And in some builds,
- Intuition

Attack the strategic points of Control Slaver and you win.  Attack Goblin Welder, like everyone else tries to do, and you lose when they hardcast Mindslaver and pop it on you.

The rest isn't really consequential, just don't let their Slavers hit the 'yard.

Here's (what I think) the best opening Control Slaver would have (barring broken openings):
Underground Sea, Duress.

Unless 'Tog topdecks something, or starts really well, then Slaver has a chance to utilize their primary draw engine to place themselves far ahead in the lead, and put a Mindslaver in the 'yard.  'Tog then has to worry about each Goblin Welder in the deck, which is harder than dealing with a blue draw spell.
Once Control Slaver has 'Tog (or any deck) trying to stop Goblin Welder, it just won, because they only have to resolve one Mindslaver activation to pull far ahead in the lead.

My experience has been that there are answers in 'Tog to deal with just about anything that Control Slaver can throw at you.  I might've had four hours of experience with the deck before running it Tuesday night, and I lost one game all day, in a very competitive field.

Keep in mind, in no way am I saying that Control Slaver is terrible - it can beat 'Tog, the right builds especially, and it is a better choice for general tournaments with all this Wasteland nonsense running around.

Let me know if my logic is faulty here, because using my logic, I am beating skilled people in my area - not kids who know how to find TheManaDrain articles.

My question (a few posts back) didn't really have much to do with the Control Slaver matchup, since I seemed to be doing pretty well against them.

I love how people are like "Yeah, well Tog has Duress and REB!" as if Control Slaver doesn't as well...

Weren't those ones supposed to be the better versions?  If so, then why is there so much AK Slaver running around?  I've played both with and without AKs, and my current favorite is based on ELD's list from Waterbury that doesn't run 'em.

[The Atog Lord]

If so, then why is there so much AK Slaver running around?

Simple. Some big names, for whatever reason, advocate the AK build. The AK build is easier to play. And you can sort of pretend that you're Tog with the AK build.

Granted, I hate AKs in the deck myself.

[Hi-Val]

I guess some reason why people think that AK slaver is good is because it was the top 2 decks at Waterbury and put more Intuition-based versions in the T8 than non-intuition decks. I think that the numbers speak for themselves; in a tournament of 200 people, where practically everyone was running CS in some form or another, the fact that the Intuition-based builds rose to the top, above those that did not run it, is indisputable.

You all seem to be forgetting that CS can, after resolving welder, just draw up to 8 cards and discard its slaver. With plenty of draw in the deck, this is entirely possible and happens frequently with me. If Goblin Welder resolves, you're on a clock, whether you think you are or not. You can be beaten by the rule of hand size.

I think we digress here, though. The discussion is about Hulk, and how it can win. Without maindeck Gorilla Shaman and some way to answer Welders, I don't know that it has as much game as it could.

[Windfall]

Okay, you're saying that Slavers cannot hit the yard, yet Goblin Welder does not need to be dealt with?  You also argue that hardcasting Slaver and activating it is a way for Slaver to beat you.  Yet again I ask, Goblin Welder does not need to be dealt with?

If I resolve a first turn welder, suddenly you have to worry about me randomly hardcasting artifacts because if you counter them, I just weld them back in.  I have won many games by just randomly hardcasting a Slaver before the Tog player expects it, then welding it in if they counter it.

Welder is a HUGE problem.  The reasons are because you need to deal with it, and spending resources attacking a one mana red 1/1 takes away from your ability to deal with every other bomb in my deck.

     ~Mark B.

[jpmeyer]

Okay, you're saying that Slavers cannot hit the yard, yet Goblin Welder does not need to be dealt with?  You also argue that hardcasting Slaver and activating it is a way for Slaver to beat you.  Yet again I ask, Goblin Welder does not need to be dealt with?

If I resolve a first turn welder, suddenly you have to worry about me randomly hardcasting artifacts because if you counter them, I just weld them back in.  I have won many games by just randomly hardcasting a Slaver before the Tog player expects it, then welding it in if they counter it.

Welder is a HUGE problem.  The reasons are because you need to deal with it, and spending resources attacking a one mana red 1/1 takes away from your ability to deal with every other bomb in my deck.

     ~Mark B.

...and also, if they have to waste time stopping Welders, that's time lost which they could've spent drawing cards.

[Revvik]

Okay, you're saying that Slavers cannot hit the yard, yet Goblin Welder does not need to be dealt with?  You also argue that hardcasting Slaver and activating it is a way for Slaver to beat you.  Yet again I ask, Goblin Welder does not need to be dealt with?

If I resolve a first turn welder, suddenly you have to worry about me randomly hardcasting artifacts because if you counter them, I just weld them back in.  I have won many games by just randomly hardcasting a Slaver before the Tog player expects it, then welding it in if they counter it.

Welder is a HUGE problem.  The reasons are because you need to deal with it, and spending resources attacking a one mana red 1/1 takes away from your ability to deal with every other bomb in my deck.

My experience (repeat, MY EXPERIENCE) has shown that hardcasting large artifacts with a Welder out happens far too slow.  By that time, I've drawn enough cards to just win via berserked 'Tog.
Casting six mana artifacts?  That is NOT the way to win, and I don't see how you can call it that.

Re: Gorilla Shaman & ways to answer Welder:  If you feel those are necessary, run them.  I don't see how cutting into the deck to fit a one of that isn't Pernicious Deed is going to improve matchups (but I'm partial to Deed more so than Shaman).  The sideboard is another matter - a single Snuff Out in the board can work wonders against icing early Welders.  The fact that they can be replayed for free again during a Will turn without the 'Tog player skipping a beat is also pretty nice.

[Windfall]

Dude, I don't think you fully understand what Goblin Welder is capable of.

Slaver is a deck based around getting one really expensive Artifact into play and winning the game with its power.  I use Goblin Welder to do that any time I don't have Tinker, which I notice you didn't put on your list of things to stop.  Apparently you don't care if I have a Sundering Titan in play on turn 2 or 3 either, but that's just my assumption since you didn't seem to think Tinker was a threat.

Anyway, back to the main point.  Goblin Welder does not just exchange Moxes for large Artifacts.  He generates enough mana to CAST those artifacts early without a Thirst!  Countless times has Goblin Welder  played around with Mana Vault, Moxes, and Black Lotus, making 6 mana easily on turn 2.  I realize that bad players do not understand the value of tapping Welder for 3 mana, but I do, and I use it to hardcast Slavers on turn 2 quite often against a deck like Tog.  Add the power of Mana Drain, and getting to 10 mana is actually easier than you might think.

     ~Mark B.

[Revvik]

Yes, I didn't bring up Tinker.  I didn't mention hardly any of the restricted cards that immediately change the way the game is played as soon as they show.  Relying on restricted cards is just as bad, and yes, very few players see the ability to "tap for three" as you put it.  Powerful, I know.  It's a very game winning affect.

Do I see this in games?  Very, very, VERY seldom.  Relying on a restricted card is even less likely to win in the manner you described.  First, the restricted card has to show up early enough to be relevant.  Second, the restricted card has to resolve (Tinker in this case - Lotus manipulation could probably win despite anything).

My plan for Control Slaver does not hinge on restricted cards.  Simple as that.  I guess you can read my previous statements as, "Barring serious brokenness on Control Slaver's part, this matchup is in your favor."  But then why would I say that, since that's true of just about every matchup?

[MaxxMatt]

I love how people are like "Yeah, well Tog has Duress and REB!" as if Control Slaver doesn't as well...

Not to nitpick you JP, but me and you were talking about GothSlaver vs. 3C-Tog.
GothSlaver is Blu&Red.
So my argument is perfectly reasonable.
OTOH, 3C-Slaver is a totally different deck with higher winning rate against Tog-Based.Decs ESPECIALLY because of the presence of BlackSpells coupled with the other bombs...

Welder is a HUGE problem. The reasons are because you need to deal with it, and spending resources attacking a one mana red 1/1 takes away from your ability to deal with every other bomb in my deck.
~Mark B.
-----
...and also, if they have to waste time stopping Welders, that's time lost which they could've spent drawing cards.

This a good point.
Duresses cannot touch Welders and anything discarded by them would be welded-in really fast.

Playing against 3C-C-S, I found that ( talking about MY well known deck configuration ) 2 E.E. and 4 Wishes ( of course with all the needed artifact acceleration to better support them ) are enough to stop Welders from being deathly. Usually a single Welder activation is not game over ( maybe escluding a second turn Titan ) and E.E.s and Wishes are the cards that Tog have to use to escape from opponent's fast Welders' clocks.

OTOH, a first turn Welder is really more painful than a second or third turn Welder. Tog can deal with "slow-Welders" really well at now and I'm sure that the entire matchup should be considered nearly equal, depending both on skills and broken plays.

I recommend not to forgot that my arguments are based on those concepts:

1) Goth-Slaver has a hell of a draw-engine but less real threats to bring into play
2) 3C-Slavery ( I really like the ELD's version ) has a minor draw engine but a more sinergic one with the entire deck AND it can better support his spells with discards' effects and black bombs.

Comparing the two deck's descriptions, I can conclude that a Tog-like deck such as mine, is perfectly suited to stop the ongoing winning plan of the GothSlaver's version, while it can have some problems stopping the 3C-versions' fast starts.


-----


As both of you correctly underlined in various posts, the 3C-C-S vs. 3C-Tog matchup, isn't an AK's mirror because the good versions of C-S don't run them at all.

Playing against 3C-C-S in my tests matches, the version against which I lost more games is the ELD's one ( with really a few minor changes ). It packs the right amount of bombs, disruptions, drawers to really put me into trouble almost any game. Pre & post side we usually have the same amount of bombs and drawers to fight each other, but his "engine" is usually a bit faster than mine.



Maxx

[Dnine]

I played a tog deck this past weekend in a 31 player tournament and finished 3rd.  For welder based decks like CS, I had 2 lava darts sideboard.  Game 2 I would bring one in and leave one sideboard.  That gave me 7 chances to draw either the dart, the wish, or intuition.  plus I'd leave in the EEs as well.  being able to intuition for lava dart was a game saver in those matchups.  I'm thinking of even trying to main deck one instead of sideboarding 2.  My only 2 losses in the tournament were to oath as my sideboard was not built correctly to handle it.(which I know was dumb on my part).   I faced only one CS deck so more data is definately needed, but it worked wining both games after losing game 1.

[forests failed you]

Although Cunning Wish for Snuff out or Blue Blast to kill Goblin Welder gets the job done and allows the Tog player to not lose, it is a huge tempo loss.  Answering a turn one, one drop creature with a three casting cost instant, some life, and no card draw that turn doesn't seem efficient.  Control Savery will then spend that same turn drawing a bunch of cards and getting card advantage and tempo advantage.  (and probably drawing more of that one drop red guy who wins the game).

Control Slavery, and even Oath, tend to have such strong matchups against the previous wave of Agro-Control decks, i.e. Tog and 4CC,
because their threats come out faster and must be dealt with immediately.  Any other deck has time to deal with a turn one Psychatog, however most of the time, if a turn one Welder or turn one Oath are not answered immediately you lose.

To account for this I have seen a lot of good Psychatog players maindecking one or two copies of Engineered Explosives, because it tends to be especially efficient all around.  It is a fast answer to Welder, or Oath, (and can get into play before the Welder even arrives, less tempo loss) and it has decent game against stax (assuming they don't have  a Trinisphere) because it kills Welder and is a permanent.

The Psychatog player MUST take under consideration that if other Combo/Control decks are going to play faster, more efficient bombs, then Tog has to play better answers.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Although Cunning Wish for Snuff out or Blue Blast to kill Goblin Welder gets the job done and allows the Tog player to not lose, it is a huge tempo loss. Answering a turn one, one drop creature with a three casting cost instant, some life, and no card draw that turn doesn't seem efficient. Control Savery will then spend that same turn drawing a bunch of cards and getting card advantage and tempo advantage. (and probably drawing more of that one drop red guy who wins the game).

While this is somewhat accurate, note that tog is running lava dart in the SB. Wishing for lava dart is game breaking vs. control slaver. It just sits there while you go about your business.

Control Slavery, and even Oath, tend to have such strong matchups against the previous wave of Agro-Control decks, i.e. Tog and 4CC,
because their threats come out faster and must be dealt with immediately. Any other deck has time to deal with a turn one Psychatog, however most of the time, if a turn one Welder or turn one Oath are not answered immediately you lose.

I think tog w/ 4 REBS has a great matchup against CS and Oath. Sure, there are those times when CS and Oath go broken and win, but under normal circumstances Tog stands a great chance. It's the only deck running wishes, which are so versatile. Wish--->Rushing river sets Oath back 2 turns and wish--->dart is amazing vs. CS.

-Bob

[onelovemachine]

While CS shay style can be faster, you are playing the control matchup.  Cunning wish is your best answer for several reasons: it isn't a dead card, its an instant, it helps you win the game.  Your battling for card advantage earlier.  In this matchup here's how I view things:  
Turns 1-3 of SHAY slaver...
1: Duress, or brainstorm, or welder setting up for turn two
2: thirst eot, or wait to drain into thirst, hopefully activate welder if thirst hit
3: play the thirst off drain, do something cool with a welded artifact

The beginning plays are what tog fears.  More time=better chances of survival.  Going first is huge when duress is involved.

Turns 1-3 of Tog...
1: DURESS... hugely important for stealing draw spells which shay slaver is low on in comparison, brainstorm, (ouch no third thing to do on turn one!)
2: Have Drain available, eot wish/ intuition best case scenario
3: Hopefully have drain mana available to do the same, cast wish to get rid of welders, cast wish to stop thirst, duress leaving drain mana open

Shay style slaver is aggressive here and uses its thirsts to upend draw advantage quickly.  Tog attempts to hold back the thirsts and welders by countering/answering with wish.  Because wish gets lava dart or a zero mana snuff out, it is NOT inefficient assness;  Four life is not terrible when it leaves you mana to play counter/ disrupt/ draw.

I will never believe that oath has a strong matchup vs. tog.  It is, after all, just a control matchup.  The ability to win early for oath is not as likely to occur as it is dangerous.  Oath usually has to spend time drawing cards and tutoring up its win in the face of duresses, counters, and inability to effectively use the ak draw engine.

[Ultima]

I hate to be the one to say this, especially since I started this thread, but Tog had better find a new answer to Slaver with DA's because from my testing, its just far better and broken for tog right now.

True, Tog does have wishes, duress and the like, but to be honest Tog is now where Keeper was a while ago.  What I mean to say is that there are so many difficult matchups for it that its spread very thin and only flawless playing and alot of testing can bring it to the top8 these days. Don't get me wrong, I tried lots of different things to make Tog better like Isochron Scpeter and Explosives but they just aren't good enough to bring Tog the level it needs to be right now.  I can't say honestly that Tog is above tier 2 right now.

[Revvik]

CS w/ DA:  This is something I noticed as well.  Deep Analysis gave 'Tog a much more improved matchup, so now Control Slaver is utilizing it in the same way.

Question: Lava Dart vs. Coffin Purge - which is more effective?  They both do almost the same thing.  Dart kills the Welder, while Purge makes any Welders on the table (and topdecked) useless, but also keeps you from sacrificing some land.  It complements aiming Red Elemental Blasts at Thirst for Knowledge by working as a catch-all / safety.  Plus, any 'Tog deck not running red can use them in multiples (say, three out of the board?) to combat Welders.*

They do take up sideboard space, fighting with Red Blast, so you may actually have to use either a decreased number or just stick with one.

* = Yeah, yeah, UBg is dead, but I'll still run it if I'm seeing increased numbers of Cerebral Assassin, 4cC, Fish, and pretty much anything that has "Titan-proofed" its manabase.  My reasoning for this is Back to Basics combined with a strong anti-Welder plan, and Deed covers anything I've missed.

[thecapn]

Question: Lava Dart vs. Coffin Purge - which is more effective?  They both do almost the same thing.  Dart kills the Welder, while Purge makes any Welders on the table (and topdecked) useless, but also keeps you from sacrificing some land.  It complements aiming Red Elemental Blasts at Thirst for Knowledge by working as a catch-all / safety.  Plus, any 'Tog deck not running red can use them in multiples (say, three out of the board?) to combat Welders.*

I'm not sure what the rest of your sideboard looks like, but I'd be more inclined to run Coffin Purge because of the performance of Rector Trix at Waterbury and Dragon at Waterbury and the last SCG:VA.

[Revvik]

5 blasts, a draw spell, 2 Ground Seal, a couple Rack n Ruins...  Fire / Ice...
I forget the rest.  In anticipation of a Fish / hate backlash from my recent performances with Snoop Toggy Togg (I am SO lame), I set it aside for an EBA variant for the moment.  
That and I am also having some problems against the DA Slaver, which is remedied by maindeck Swords to Plowshares, and Chains of Mephistopheles out of the board.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Snoop Toggy Togg (I am SO lame)

Holy crap yeah you are... Skeletal Scrying was a good choice for the sb wish draw card

[Zherbus]

Closed. Thread has exceeded it's ease-of-navigation length.