Creature --> Instant

[Nefarias]

I'm not sure how good this is, but I figure I might as well share it and get some opinions on the matter.

Stone Rain Guy
3R
Creature -- Beast
3R, discard Stone Rain Guy: Destroy target land.
3/2

I thought of this idea when I was changing an instant into a creature and thought it would be cool to also do it the other way around. The original thought process was that it was a "sacrifice" effect that you didn't actually have to play the creature to use. This mechanic could support a wide array of cards, and Stone Rain Guy is obv. just a prototype.

The problem is that it is a lot like cycling triggers, except you don't draw the card. I assure you that CT's in no way inspired this, but I fear that they are too similar to coexist. Do you agree? More importantly, can anyone think of a way to do this? Is there a way to word this better, and perhaps allow for counterability?

Similar Wizards creations that make creatures like instants/sorceries include 187 triggers, morph triggers, sacrifice effects, Assault/Battery, and the aforementioned cycling triggers. Is there a way to make this significantly different from those? (or is it already?)

///CURRENT WORDING///
Oxidizing Elf
1G
Creature -- Elf
GG, discard Oxidizing Elf: Put an instant on the stack that has "Destroy target artifact" and a mana cost of GG.
2/1

[stolen]

For one thing, Stone Rain is a sorcery.  Just like how all other LD cards are sorceries.  This would already be fairly costed as a instant.  The fact that it has a body attached means the price must be higher.  I think it could stay at four mana if you made it a sorcery instead, which is my recommendation.  (Unlike Avelanche Riders, for example, this can't be used as both LD and a creature, so the cost can be less for each individual part of it.)  Also, the wording needs to be corrected.  I would say:

, discard Stone Rain Guy: Destroy target land.  Use this ability only if Stone Rain Guy is in your hand and only any time you could play a sorcery.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the mechanic anyway.  It's trite.  Why Stone Rain?  You could double any spell as a creature.  And this particular creature has no reason to have Stone Rain attached other than the fact that that it's red.  It's like making a split card with two cards that have nothing to do with each other.  Why?  I could understand using the mechanic if there was a good reason for it, but I don't see that here.  Avelanche Riders worked because it also had Haste and Echo, which made it interesting.  Blah.

[Toad]

A better wording would be something like

"You may pay and discard ~this~ any time you could play a sorcery. If you do, destroy target land".

This is probably too good though. And awful flavourwise.

[Puschkin]

I don't get it - sholdn't it read "sacrifice ~this~" instead of "discard"? Or do you want it to be playable as a Stone Rain while it is in your hand!? If so, wouldn'T it need another wording? And wouldn`t it be better to make it a split card or make it a modal card that either destroys a land or puts a 3/2 token into play?

[Matt]

This totally wants to be an Entwine spell. I think he wants it to be uncounterable (apart from Stifle & friends) but whatever.

[Nefarias]

All quoted from my original post:

@stolen:

"This mechanic could support a wide array of cards, and Stone Rain Guy is obv. just a prototype."

@Puschkin:

"Similar Wizards creations that make creatures like instants/sorceries include 187 triggers, morph triggers, sacrifice effects, Assault/Battery, and the aforementioned cycling triggers. Is there a way to make this significantly different from those?"

@Matt:

Is there a way to word this better, and perhaps allow for counterability?

Let me address some issues. First, Stone Rain is always the first think I think of whenever a new mechanic is devised, as it's done all the time (Lay Waste, Flowstone Whatever, Shaleskin Plower, etc., etc.) Stone Rain Guy is general was just the most basic form to test the "creature into spell" mechanic. I don't really care about the numbers, etc., though I agree with the sorcery speed criticism. I just overlooked that b/c the specific card is not really the issue here.

Basically, yes, I do want this to be modal--It's either a creature, or a spell. But I don't want it to put creature tokens into play or something. The idea was to make it a base creature that could turn into an instant/sorcery. Also, I would like the I/S to be counterable, as I want it to essentially be an actual Stone Rain if that function is used.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the only/best way to do this is to create an entirely new card template, like the flippy guys, which is beyond the scope of this forum.

I am kind of sketchy on it myself, but wanted to get a second opinion and figured there was no harm in throwing it out there. Does this clear things up?

NOTE: I changed the base card just so that discussion wouldn't focus around how much the suck it was.

[Nibble]

The discard wording is the most intuitive for how you present the idea, but I thought of it this way at first:

Stone Rain Guy
3R
Creature -- Guy
You may play Stone Rain Guy any time you could play an instant. If it was played any time a sorcery couldn't have been played, sacrifice it and destroy target land.
3/2

I hate how lengthy that wording has to be, but it's the Oracle text for [card]Ward of Lights[/card] and [card]Necromancy[/card] and such, so it's what we have to use.

This offers a few changes over the discard method:
- Counterable
- Cannot be played as a spell during your main phases (though this is really irrelevant for anything)
- Counts as a creature coming into play and going to the graveyard


The other thought I had was the same basic idea, but make the 'sacrifice and destroy target land' effect happen at end of turn, as a delayed trigger. It weakens the spell effect somewhat because of the delay, but it means you can use the creature as a blocker, and if it survives, get the spell effect as well. This is probably too far off your original concept, and also would require a decent increase in cost, so eh.. ignore this.

[Matt]

All quoted from my original post:
But I don't want it to put creature tokens into play or something. The idea was to make it a base creature that could turn into an instant/sorcery.

Why not tokens, though? It's such an elegant solution. What advantage does not having it be a token-maker bring? The fact that you can reuse it?

[Nefarias]

I agree that from a pure gameplay perspective, tokens is the easiest way to go, but I'm trying to do something different. Making it modal and having it put tokens in play would make it similar to Assualt/Battery and Rith's Charm. There are a lot of sorceries/instants that make creatures; I want a creature that makes a sorcery/instant. This may very well be a lost cause, but the point isn't really the specific card so much as the mechanic, and trying something new.

Nibble, you're actually a lot closer than I was, though it still suffers some problems. I agree, for example, that Stone Rain should be limited to sorcery speed.

I have been thinking it over all day, and this is the best I came up with that does almost exactly what I want it to do w/ only slight complications.

Oxidizing Elf
1G
Creature -- Elf
GG, discard Oxidizing Elf: Put an instant on the stack that has "Destroy target artifact" and a mana cost of GG.

Instead of an instant that makes creature tokens, it's a creature that makes instant tokens, so to speak. The closest thing in the current rules to this are a) copies of spells, which always do in fact copy a pre-existing spell, and b) pseudospells, which iirc refer to triggered and activated abilities put on the stack. Does this work? Is it cool enough to be worth the trouble?

[stolen]

I still just don't like it.  Maybe for a particular creature, but as it is it's just purely game-play based min/maxing.  While I was specific in criticizing your Stone Rain creature, my point holds through.  This elf, I can ask the same question: why?  You thought of a neat mechanic.  But to just stuff it onto random vanillas is ruinous to the game.  The connection between the flavour and story of the game and the mechanics of it is lost.

I suggest you make one creature/spell that uses this mechanic and have a good reason for it.  Don't try to template it.

[Tabasco]

I would like it as...


Sorcery
Destroy target Land - or - Put a 3/2 red token creature into play, It gains haste, sacrifice it at end of turn. If you paid the entwine cost ...
Entwine -

or even just as is without the entwine...

Maybe an entwine of sac a land?

[Nova442]

Tabasco kind of missed the call of the question, namely, is there a way to make a creature/spell instead of a token generating spell.

I can't think of any elegant way within the rules to make it counterable.  In my opinion it's best to leave it simple as an ability.  Then you don't have to mess with really weird wordings like your latest (which doesn't look like it works, and even if it did would require "a green instant with a mana cost of GG".  At that point you're trying to create a spell by spelling out all the parts.  It's like making a creature/enchantment with: 0/0, ~this~ doesn't die due to have 0 toughness, ~this~ can't attack or block ~this~ counts as an enchantment.

I tried to find a wording like: "your opponents may counter this ability as though it was a spell" but I remembered that the ability would then have to count as or be a spell for counters to target it.  Overall I liked the idea, it's just that the other solutions are nicer.

[rvs]

Isn't this just a superb shatter? (apart from the color difference).

I think it should be a 1/1, not a 2/1.

[Nefarias]

Well, apart from the color difference, yes, but that difference is huge. Red drew the short straw on artifact removal after the color pie shift.

I think a better way to look at is as a bad Oxidize, Grizzly Bears, and Viridian Shaman all rolled into one.