Magic Online Reprint Policy and How it could affect Vintage

[Petey4335]

Magic Online Reprint Policy

Once Wizards of the Coast declares that an online card set is off sale, we will never sell the product again. We will, however, make a very small amount of the product available for use in limited tournaments and as prizes as we deem appropriate. The amount of an out-of-print set that we release in a year will be less than 1% of the initial online print run of that product. Print run is defined as the product purchased in at the Magic Online store as well as product awarded as prizes between the onsale date and offsale date of the product in question.

Individual cards from every set available on Magic Online are eligible to be reprinted in future sets.

Apparently the prices for older useful IPA cards are reaching the price of say Drains, Libraries, etc.  So now Wizards is trying to add more supply to stifle these costs.

Why Couldn't this work for older OOP sets that are staples for for vintage?  Assuming that WOTC could still print Beta, Arabians, Antiquites, etc.  Is there any reason they couldn't or shouldn't hold limited events for these?

I realise at events like GEN CON and such, they do try to hold Ittalian Legends drafts.   Although, when I was there, I did not see much in the way of interest for it.  Then again, I remember the price being a little steep.

Any thoughts, comments?

[Revvik]

Speaking of Online prices being through the roof, I was wondering why a Magic Online foil Pernicious Deed is worth ten times the price of my real-world foil Pernicious Deed.  

As for this working for Vintage, I see what they are doing for Online Extended as being contradictory to their policy for Vintage, but my bias against Online may provide some insight.

They aren't real cards.

I, personally, stay away from Online, Apprentice, MWS, etc. because of a preference to play with the real thing.  
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Wizards probably instituted this for several reasons:

1) Online Extended pulls in the money
2) Online Extended can host large events / tournaments on their servers
3) "Re-printing" out-of-print Online cards is less of an offense than reprinting Moxen.  After all, they aren't real, so they aren't entirely collector's items.

Vintage can't really compete against the first point - Vintage doesn't pay salary over at Wizards very well.  And the second point is more of a convenience factor for Wizards.

"Reprinting" in the manner you stated allows for easier access to these unreasonably high-priced staples, which is good for a format that Wizards can capitalize on (Online Extended), because, after all, they are in the business to make money.

[jpmeyer]

If you're talking about the concept of online Vintage, not only is WotC way behind with just trying to fit in sets as they come out, but I'm pretty sure they will have maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad cards that they either would not be able to figure out or would screw things up or whatever.  Cards like All Sun's Dawn and Vedalken Engineer caused problems.  Try working in something like Humility or Volrath's Shapeshifter.  As awesome as it would be to have online Vintage, it's totally unfeasible.

[Machinus]

Magic Online prices for Invasion/Planeshift/Apocalypse singles have steadily risen over the past year. Witness:

4x Orim's Chant - $331
1x Foil Pernicious Deed - $222.01
4x Fact or Fiction - $61.00

I know I might look really hypocritical calling these auctions "ridiculous," and even the existence of demand for this to be unbelievable, but seriously that is what this is. Here is my defense.

1) They are not even real objects. They are bits on a server somewhere which makes them approximately equal to 160/60 Valors or 40/15 Windforces in Diablo II.
2) You can get them in real life for like a couple of bucks!!!omfg!!!
3) MTGO sucks.

[Jacob Orlove]

1) They are not even real objects. They are bits on a server somewhere which makes them approximately equal to 160/60 Valors or 40/15 Windforces in Diablo II.

Nothing on the internet is "real," but people will still pay for digital "objects." Just look at iTunes or SCG premium. Stuff can have legitimate value without being "real."

2) You can get them in real life for like a couple of bucks!!!omfg!!!

That's a false comparison. You can't use digital cards IRL, and you can't use dead tree cards online. They are very different things, even though they perform the same function in-game.

3) MTGO sucks.

No more than paper magic does.

[nataz]

I'm in no way going to read too much into this,
but it does suggest an interesting glimps of M:TG, and how they deal with card prices when they get so out of control they hurt their bottom line.

As far as I know, this is the first time they did something of this nature since chronicles. (Just a guess)

[Bram]

While I would sell my own sister to pirate slavers before I start playing MTGO, I gotta agree with Jacob here.

I played ChronX for the longest time, which was the first online CCG. Besides being the best game I've ever had the good fortune of playing, it showed me the value of online cards.

In a very real sense, buying online cards is 'safer'. The cards don't degrade like paper does (they're always pack mint), you can't misplace or lose them, and they can't be stolen (or rather, it's a lot harder to the point I don't think anyone's ever succesfully done so). But none of that really matters, even. If an online community is your preffered battleground, why would the cards there be cheaper?

The only argument against spending hundreds of bucks on an online card as opposed to a real one (and I admit the price for a premium Pernicious Deed shocked me) is the fact that in general, people like to collect stuff they can hold (pr0n collections excluded, since they're usually holding something else then, anyway). The fact that I can put my beta Lotus in a vault and take it out occasionally to look at it, sitting in its screw-down hard plastic sleeve, holds added value for me.

Personally I quit Chronx and started playing T1 because of face to face player interaction, which MTGO would take away again. While I can't say for sure, I imagine that many Vintage players feel the same way. Add to that the difficulty of implementing many cards, and I doubt you're onto a winner.

[jpmeyer]

1) They are not even real objects. They are bits on a server somewhere which makes them approximately equal to 160/60 Valors or 40/15 Windforces in Diablo II.

Oh man, I hope this turns into a debate about postmodernity.  That would be so hot.

[Matt]

I wonder what they'll do in the NEXT Extended rotation with the online cards that will then be worthless outside of Prismatic/Singleton?

[Saucemaster]

1) They are not even real objects. They are bits on a server somewhere which makes them approximately equal to 160/60 Valors or 40/15 Windforces in Diablo II.

Oh man, I hope this turns into a debate about postmodernity.  That would be so hot.

Look for my upcoming ten-part SCG Premium article, "The Desert of the Fantastic: Logocentrism, Simulacra, and Hyperreality in Magic: The Gathering".

Highlights include "Wizards of the Coast: Library of Alexandria or Panopticon?", and the discussion of the notion of the "proxy", "Nothing Is a Time Walk: The Power 9's Hallucinatory Resemblance to Itself".

I'm thinking about including a bonus section in which I discuss the notion of a "signed" card.  I'm also thinking about commissioning Doug Linn to do a series of proxies wherein he exactly duplicates a set of Power 9 that has been signed by Richard Garfield.  Then I'm going to sell pictures of them.

[jpmeyer]

Oh, oh, oh, or what about the people that subscribe to reality porn websites?  I mean, they're paying money for a non-physical copy of a hyperreal simulation of an event that never happened!

Baudrillard would have a field day with Bangbus.

[Revvik]

Look for my upcoming ten-part SCG Premium article, "The Desert of the Fantastic: Logocentrism, Simulacra, and Hyperreality in Magic: The Gathering".

I understood a grand total of one word in the title of that thing, and only because I did a report on deserts for my Home Economics class in freshman year of high school.  Hooray for public schools, and hooray for cupcakes.

In all seriousness, they may not be "real" objects, and despite my bias against paying money for digital cards, Wizards should do what they need to do to make Online Extended playable by mostly everyone.  
And since they're digital cards, I hardly think people would get upset over a higher percentage of acquiring a deck staple (except maybe people who paid over $300 for a playset of Orim's Chant.  Damn).

[Saucemaster]

Oh, oh, oh, or what about the people that subscribe to reality porn websites? I mean, they're paying money for a non-physical copy of a hyperreal simulation of an event that never happened!

Baudrillard would have a field day with Bangbus.

I really think that's a topic for TheManDrain.com.  I mean, Christ, you're a moderator, stay on topic.

I understood a grand total of one word in the title of that thing, and only because I did a report on deserts for my Home Economics class in freshman year of high school.  Hooray for public schools, and hooray for cupcakes.

I know you're kidding and all, but I'm pretty sure you did a report on "desserts" for Home Ec.  "Deserts" would be a very strange topic indeed.

Hooray for public schools.

[Revvik]

so... SO completely over your head.  The typo was part of the joke!  Failure to comprehend non-monosyllabic words, common spelling errors, and public schools?  Honestly, sometimes I try way too hard for you people  

Side Note (we don'e have enough of THESE yet): I did do a video report on deserts (the sandy things) with a friend in sophomore year.  Highlights included our reference to sandstorms and their damaging effects to peoples vision.  I later removed my glasses to clean them, and our cameraman threw some sand at me.  It was scripted to hit me in the face, but it hit me square in the chest.  Jason and I looked at each other, the sand on the ground, and at the camera, before I shrugged, screamed "Ow!  My eyes!" and started running off in the background in pain.

[Saucemaster]

Oh man, I sent up an easy one for you and you had to get all serious.  I thought you were baiting me with the Home Ec. thing, so I figured I'd go for it and see if you had some cool comeback all set up.  I walk right into it and you don't take the shot?  I'm offering my dignity up for public consumption here!

Also, I think for the purposes of this thread that you should also edit your post above and pretend that the cameraman threw a custard at you or something.

Oh, and, uhm, on topic (oops): It's an interesting idea, and they've certainly given themselves a back door, but I seriously doubt they'll implement this with cardboard cards and Vintage staples.  But hey, at least they've established precedent.

[Revvik]

Saucemaster > Revvik

I didn't even see the setup you were referring to.

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Can the precedent they're setting here be applied to any offline format?  I'm sure there were special reservations made for the online formats, other than the technical differences between reprinting out-of-print cards and reworking lines of code.

[Saucemaster]

There is a technical difference, but the fundamental issues and complaints are going to be the same.  They're reprinting OOP cards that have an established value to collectors and players.  They've given no indication that they *want* to use this as precedent for cardboard cards, and there's no reason to think they will, but I can easily see the argument being extended to the deadtree cards.  Regardless, unless they did this on a huge scale, it wouldn't actually solve the availability and pricing problems that non-proxy (or hell, even five- or ten-proxy) Vintage has.

[Triple_S]

Steering back ON topic, at this point I actually prefer MTGO to paper magic, and I have for a while now.  A big part of this is the stagnant meta that Vintage has turned into (do you win w/ combo on turn 1, or do I beat you with MWS-->3Sphere, its a lot of fun I tell you) and that MTGO is infinitely more convienent for me.  I can draft 24/7, get a game any time I want, and it has made the game fun again for me, particularly prismatic.

[Matt]

I wonder what they'll do in the NEXT Extended rotation with the online cards that will then be worthless outside of Prismatic/Singleton?

People, people. Let's stop this nonsense about online Moxen-porn or whatever you're blathering about and start bandying about some wild suppositions re: my brilliant, insightful, forward-thinking, and most definitely un-rhetorical question.

[CHA1N5]

The real trick is, does the online precedent actually address the stated reasons for not reprinting the IRL cards?

- Violating reprint policy:  there is no violation in this MTGO move, since they set themselves up for it when they developed their policy.  Something similar has been argued about the IRL reprint policy:  there appears to be a Premium loophole (you have to pay $30 a year to use it.... HA!) that would allow for FNM/Judge reprints of anything they want.  

Personally, I believe that WotC could reprint Foil Judge Moxes tomorrow and point to the reprint policy and say: "see?!"  I just don't know if/when they will.

- Diminishing the Collectable & Monetary value of the existing cards:  the MTGO policy is clearly designed to minimize the impact of this factor as much as possble (all that 1% jazz is designed to speak to econimists).  I see no reason why a similar approach could/would not be taken with aforementioned Judge Foils.

There are ~20K of each A/B/U rare.  Unfortunately, 1% of that is only 200, so the 1% standard set forth by the MTGO policy would not translate into a feasible IRL process for Judge foils.  They could, however, offer them as prizes for a VERY exclusive series of events.  Naturally, I would want those to be Vintage events, but imagine if WotC started a Legacy P9 tournament series offering Foil P9 reprints as prizes!!!!  

/me faints.


Am I looking at this thing through rose-colored glasses?  Am I missing some big hangup with my analysis?  Did I forget a comparison that prevents this policy from being ported to IRL reprints?


Honestly, this MTGO situation looks to me like another in a growing line of experiments by Marketing to test the proverbial reprint waters.  (See: Regrowth, Clone, Keg, etc.)  How will the prices of $200 foils react to a reintroduction of supply, albeit at a trickle?  This will be very interesting to watch.