[free article] restricted list part 2

[jpmeyer]

What I was finding while writing and thinking about this article is that all the problems that people seem to have with Type 1 right now come down to mana.  The allure of Type 1 is that three mana on turn one that you can pracitically count on.  The problems arise once you can start generating around six mana on the first couple turns, because once you hit that point you're very close to winning the game.

[dandan]

From something I wrote today in Community

I voted neither YES nor NO as I honestly don't know. It seems to a far deeper issue than individual cards. Here's my point -

The biggest change to Vintage decks over the last 18 months has not been the introduction of new cards or the effect of new restrictions/unrestrictions. The changes we have seen are the changes we asked for. We have a Vintage scene with good decks, decks that have gone through team development, decks with a wide variety of tools to take on whatever metagame they need to. We can no longer use sub-optimal decks and expect to win. Look at Keeper. Excellent players have clung to this deck, metagamed it and through their skills, have continued to win far more than they should (which in a way is a good thing, as it shows that player skill is still a vital factor). However, most have us have realised that the way to win in Vintage is to not allow your opponent a chance to win, either by winning before they do anything or by stopping them doing anything or by telling them what to do. This is not a fun thing for at least one of the players!

In short we have a largely non-interactive Vintage metagame at present.

It is, however, balanced in that all of the good decks are capable of doing broken things.

Now, some people are unhappy that Serras and Negators are no longer with us (I think I am in this camp being a casual player at heart who occasionally plays competitively). Many of them want to turn back the clock to the 'golden age' of Type One (as it was called back then). This can't happen. Sorry.
Restricting a long list of cards will change the metagame. It might slow down combo. It might weaken Prison, Control and might help Aggro or at least Aggro-Control/Agro-Combo (I find it hard to imagine weenie hordes turning sideways for the win anytime soon {FCG is Agro-Combo in my book}). It might not. You might find that Prison digs up City of Traitors and Spheres of Resistance and finds itself stronger in a world with no Mana Drains. You might not. You might find that Control with Shoals gets very strong with no 3sphere and ultra-fast combo. You might not. You might find that combo survives restrictions very well (see the Highlander format) and enjoys not facing 3sphere and Mana Drain. I don't know and to be honest, I doubt if anyone else does.

For me the current dilemma can be summed up by looking at Trinishere. This card is actually a marvel of design. It has a powerful effect but the effect is greatly reduced in power as the game goes on. The casting cost of 3 means its 'standard' appearance is on turn 3, right when its effect starts to nosedive in power. To use it well, you must get it out sooner. As an Artifact it isn't hard to destroy and it even has a clause to turn it off when tapped that most of us haven't bothered to worry about but is quite important with Artifact Root Mazes being printed. However, in Vintage we have Workshop and so 3sphere can be dropped on turn 1 far more oftenthan it is designed to be. The problem isn't Trinisphere, the problem is Trinisphere on turn 1.
The reformers would restrict both Workshop and Trinisphere, the tinkerers seem to be gunning for Trinisphere. However, isn't the real problem the Workshop that gives you 3 mana on turn 1, therebye breaking the casting cost of many Artifacts? The logical (or at least logical to Dandan) solution would be to restrict Workshop but even I can see that that would have a dramatic and IMHO undesirable (although not non-Mind's Desirable) effect on the metagame.

So we appear to be considering a dramtic change with unpredictable consequences, or minor changes with restrictions of (relatively) balanced cards to accommodate the continual unrestriction of cards we all know are grossly overpowered (Drain and Workshop) for either metagame or 'format identity' reasons or logical restrictions based on power levels that would, more than likely have a worse effect on the metagame than either of the two other choices.

Call me undecided.

If I didn't know that you'd written your article before I wrote my post, I'd be certain you had read and been influenced by me!

[majestyk1136]

Restricting a long list of cards will change the metagame. It might slow down combo. It might weaken Prison, Control and might help Aggro or at least Aggro-Control/Agro-Combo (I find it hard to imagine weenie hordes turning sideways for the win anytime soon {FCG is Agro-Combo in my book}). It might not. You might find that Prison digs up City of Traitors and Spheres of Resistance and finds itself stronger in a world with no Mana Drains. You might not. You might find that Control with Shoals gets very strong with no 3sphere and ultra-fast combo. You might not. You might find that combo survives restrictions very well (see the Highlander format) and enjoys not facing 3sphere and Mana Drain. I don't know and to be honest, I doubt if anyone else does.

There's a lot to be said about this.  But one thing that I disagree with is that there "may or may not be a reduction in the effectiveness of combo."

To my knowledge there has never been a time in the history of Magic where the DCI has Restricted cards and sped up the format as a result.  Due to the power/noninteractive nature of almost every archetype at this point it would make sense that the DCI would take steps to reduce the consistency/speed/power of each Archetype to the point where it would be forced to at least pretend to interact with its opposition.  There will be hue and cry for a period of time but at least order will be restored and the malaise that is currently affecting the entire community may be lifted and cards that were previously ignored due to their relative lack of power in comparison to older cousins will come to the fore.  See the Vintage forum thread started by Smmenen to get a flavor of the vintage intelligentsia's general disaffection with the situation, and the need for drastic change becomes evident.

For me the current dilemma can be summed up by looking at Trinishere. This card is actually a marvel of design. It has a powerful effect but the effect is greatly reduced in power as the game goes on.

Whoa there tiger.  "Marvel of Design?"  I think not.  The decks designed to abuse the power of the sphere almost never relinquish control of the game to such a degree that the Sphere's effect becomes irrelevant if it's in play.  IMHO the Sph3re may have been created in a vacuum without the thought that it might have an immense impact on vintage.  I could see it having been the earliest attempt on the part of Wizards to limit the power of Affinity in standard, sort of a less-sucky Hum of the Radix.  Given the existence of Sphere of Resistance was it really necessary to print this monster?  That answer probably lies above my paygrade.

So we appear to be considering a dramtic change with unpredictable consequences, or minor changes with restrictions of (relatively) balanced cards to accommodate the continual unrestriction of cards we all know are grossly overpowered (Drain and Workshop) for either metagame or 'format identity' reasons or logical restrictions based on power levels that would, more than likely have a worse effect on the metagame than either of the two other choices.

Call me undecided.

Wizards has to walk a fine line when considering these sorts of restrictions.  Hitting MWS and Drain could have the effect of causing a schism where players that own those cards simply give the DCI the bird and start their own league, a la 5-Color.  The existence of the sheer number of proxy tournaments has been caused by Wizards' refusal to do something to placate vintage players who would like to own power at reasonable prices but can't.  I think they would like to avoid widening that gap any further.  People that point to the banning of Academy and Time Spiral during Combo Winter as an argument that Wizards doesn't care about the Financial health of the game as well as much as the health of the format ignore the fact that $20 << $80 (mana drain) or $200+ (MWS).  They don't want sanctioned T1 to go the way of the dodo.  But if they did, this would probably be a good way of making sure that happened.

[Ripcord728]

Here's my problem with the format:

The fundamental turn in Vintage has become turn one.  And I really dislike that.  Decks are winning with incredible consistency right off the bat.  I'm not just talking about Tendrils, Doomsday, or TPS, here, I'm also talking about Workshop decks that go turn one Trinisphere, good game.  So the way I see it, we're no longer playing against our opponents, we're playing against ourselves.  "How consistent can I be in winning or locking up the game before my opponent ever gets a turn?"  As a result, the winner of the game boils down to the winner of the die roll.

If the format were slowed down to an environment in which decks can all do their thing on turn two, I'd have no problem with that.  Because then, at least the guy going second gets a turn to lay down a Root Maze, or cast Duress, or even have the option of ignoring all disruption and try to combo off on his own.  Of course, if that were the case, the chances of him achieving this would have to be significantly lower or else that's what everybody would do.

So how to slow down the format a turn?  The most consistent turn one winner/game locker is our good friend Trinisphere.  Restricting Workshop wouldn't stop this too much, as there are plenty of replacements available.  So Trinisphere needs the axe.  This still leaves combo decks at blazing speed, and something from them needs to be restricted as well.  Tendrils of Agony is an option, which would force combo to find a slower win condition.  Dark Ritual is an option as well.  My feeling is that with Tendrils gone, decks like Dragon and Rector Trix will represent the new combo decks to play.  And those are the type that are healthy for the environment, because instead of just winning turn one as long as they win the coinflip, Dragon and Rector run ways to beat disruption, but move more slowly.  (Bazaar/Squee, Duress/Cabal Therapy, etc).  This brings back the interaction between players; now it's a game and not a goldfish.

Control Slaver is a great deck, but it doesn't win on turn one.  So I say we can leave it alone, and the metagame will adjust to add hate until it balances itself out.  Similarly, Crucible of Worlds doesn't bother me, because the metagame has responded by employing basic lands.  True, Strip Mine gets by this, but my opinion is that restricted cards are allowed to be broken.  And remember, Crucible + Strip Mine does not win the game.  You can lose your first land and then play Tormod's Crypt, or whatever.  Goblin Welder is ridiculously fast and power, but we're seeing one of the world's crappiest cards (Lava Dart) maindecked in the Top Eight decks.  So you see, broken decks get balanced out... as long as they DON'T CONSISTENTLY WIN ON TURN ONE.

In conclusion, restrict Trinisphere and Tendrils of Agony.

[Necrologia]

Restricting Tendrils will do absolutely nothing. Meandeath would cut the md tendrils and just rely on wishes to find it's finisher. Doomsday and Belcher only run 1 tendrils right now. Dragon doesn't run any tendrils at all.

If you really want to slow storm combo you need to restrict a mana source or ban the entire mechanic altogether. Good luck with that second one.

[Kowal]

TPS also only runs one tendrils.

[Ripcord728]

Okay, I take it back.  Restrict Dark Ritual instead, then.

[dandan]

There's a lot to be said about this.  But one thing that I disagree with is that there "may or may not be a reduction in the effectiveness of combo."

To my knowledge there has never been a time in the history of Magic where the DCI has Restricted cards and sped up the format as a result.  Due to the power/noninteractive nature of almost every archetype at this point it would make sense that the DCI would take steps to reduce the consistency/speed/power of each Archetype to the point where it would be forced to at least pretend to interact with its opposition.  There will be hue and cry for a period of time but at least order will be restored and the malaise that is currently affecting the entire community may be lifted and cards that were previously ignored due to their relative lack of power in comparison to older cousins will come to the fore.  See the Vintage forum thread started by Smmenen to get a flavor of the vintage intelligentsia's general disaffection with the situation, and the need for drastic change becomes evident.

For me the current dilemma can be summed up by looking at Trinishere. This card is actually a marvel of design. It has a powerful effect but the effect is greatly reduced in power as the game goes on.

Whoa there tiger.  "Marvel of Design?"  I think not.  The decks designed to abuse the power of the sphere almost never relinquish control of the game to such a degree that the Sphere's effect becomes irrelevant if it's in play.  IMHO the Sph3re may have been created in a vacuum without the thought that it might have an immense impact on vintage.  I could see it having been the earliest attempt on the part of Wizards to limit the power of Affinity in standard, sort of a less-sucky Hum of the Radix.  Given the existence of Sphere of Resistance was it really necessary to print this monster?  That answer probably lies above my paygrade.

First of all, I don't want to hijack JP's thread, my points of view are there to be shot at in the thread in Community, which is a far more open one than this. JP's article was excellent and I just wanted to agree with him. He certainly didn't sign up to Trinisphere design praise.

To answer the above points, whilst still trying to be relevant to this thread.

1. Combo could get hit by restrictions and become stronger. Look at Highlander (Vintage with the Biggest B&R list possible). Tendrils Combo was too strong. Everything restricted and yet too strong. When talking about a wave of restrictions, it is important to understand that decks that are full of ways of finding cards like combo don't get hit as hard by restrictions as decks like control do (look at the numbers of Tendrils vs the numbers of Mana Drains/Workshops). Are you really achieving anything by 'slowing down the fundamental turn' which may or may not be practical, when the result is that you allow combo the luxury of more time to go off, safe in the knowledge that an early Trinisphere or an early Mana Drain or an early Welder are far less likely? I don't know, but I do know that in the format that was Vintage with everything restricted, combo WAS the monster that was out of control.

2. I stand by my statement that Trinisphere is a marvel of design and am glad that you pointed out how good it is in decks designed to use it. That is the sign of a good card. I would look at Black Vise and Skullclamp and the fact that they were insperted into just about anything as a sign of badly designed (more specifically developed as Vise for 2 mana and Clamp with an extra mana on activation or just +1/0 would have been far more acceptable). You just can't design decent cards that are usable in Vintage if you start with the assumption that you can generate 3 mana on turn 1. 3sphere at 4 mana is a pile of poo.

I think the main point of this thread is that there are no easy answers and the solution rather depends on where you want the format to go, a goal that is by no means uniformly agreed. It is certainly true that the format is now where most people asked for it to be, and many of those who pleaded for the change aren't very happy with what they got.

I would just like to add that I think that cards can be restricted even if that restriction has a minimal effect on the format, simply because that card deserves restriction. I honestly believe that Workshop deserves restriction on power level alone but might deserve the 'Mana Drain' treatment of being left alone in order to preserve the balance of the format. I do not believe that restricting Workshop would result in little to no change due to Ancient Tomb as many have stated.

Apologies for the length of my post!