[deck] Creatureless Control -Updated!-

[Genju of the Wicked]

I have just started getting into M:tG, and, after reading the basic and comprehensive rules, as well as most of the beginners articles and FAQs here and on other sites, I figured I would try and make a vintage deck.  

I've tried to build the deck on my own, based on searching through a database, the various articles I have read, and cards that appeal to me (the Genjus seemed cool) ….read: I do not “netdeck”.  So if my deck doesn’t look like the other decks of this type (i.e. good decks lol) please don’t try and make it into a cookiecutter, or be an idiot and flame me for it being crap.

I’ve put notes by some of the cards so you can see my reasoning(besides the most obvious), and correct me where I’m wrong.

I’ve also put some general questions at the bottom of the post, instead of creating a whole other post for each of them.  Any help is appreciated!

Notes on the actual Deck:

1) I was trying to make a sort of Creatureless-Control-Blue deck
2) I didn’t formally consider the “mana curve” of the deck, as I’m not quite sure what it should look like for such a deck (but I tried to have some sort of balance between lower and higher costs, since the “land monsters” are relatively cheap).
3) Right now, it looks like the main problems with the deck might be (please correct me if I’m wrong):
a. Unbalanced amount of sources of mana (maybe too many)?
b. Maybe too many creature removal/control cards? (since the decks has no creatures, I put a bunch of removal/control in specifically for creatures.  But since many of my lands could be used to block I don’t know if I have too many).
c. Right now it stands at 68 cards.  I would like it to be down to 60, but after already getting it down from 100+, I’m having some problems.
d. Not a very good “win condition”.  I can either hack away with my flying creatures, or use a beefed up [card]Chimeric Coils[/card].  But it definitely needs something better/more.


<LANDS>
[card]Blinkmoth Nexus[/card] (2) (flying, decent early protection)
[card]Faerie Conclave[/card] (4)
[card]Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai[/card] (1)
[card]Island[/card] (13)

<ARTIFACTS>
[card]Chimeric Coils[/card] (3)  (crappy potential win condition)
[card]Darksteel Brute[/card] (2)  (early protection b/c its relatively cheap and indestructible)
[card]Echo Chamber[/card] (1)  (too expensive?)
[card]Black Lotus[/card] (1)
[card]Mox Emerald[/card] (1)
[card]Mox Jet[/card] (1)
[card]Mox Pearl[/card] (1)
[card]Mox Ruby[/card] (1)
[card]Mox Sapphire[/card] (1)
[card]Sol Ring[/card] (1)
[card]Thran Dynamo[/card] (2) (setup for a next turn Coils kill)
[card]Grim Monolith[/card] (1)
[card]AEther Spellbomb[/card] (2)  (removal or draw)
[card]Pit Trap[/card] (2) (early protection/removal)
[card]Powder Keg[/card] (2)
[card]Nevinyrrals Disk [/card](4) (mass removal)
[card]Mindslaver[/card] (1)

<ENCHANTMENTS/INSTANTS/SORCERY>
[card]Concentrate[/card] (1)
[card]Time Walk[/card] (1)
[card]Genju of the Falls[/card] (4)
[card]AEther Storm[/card] (4)  (creature stall/burn)
[card]Collective Restraint[/card] (2) (creature stall)
[card]Ancestral Recall[/card] (1)
[card]Choking Tethers[/card] (2) (creature stall)
[card]Force of Will[/card] (2)
[card]Mana Drain[/card] (2)
[card]Dissipate[/card] (2)




I would also like to add some questions for my general knowledge.  Any help would be greatly appreciated (if these questions are clearly answered in some FAQ or rules compilation, don’t flame me.  I’ve probably read it, but either couldn’t get a definite answer or couldn’t remember).

1) When cards have an ability which allows you to use them as another type (ie [card]Faerie Conclave[/card] becomes a 2/1 blue creature with flying until end of turn. It's still a land.)  can they be effected by cards that effect either type.  For example, after using [card]Faerie Conclave[/card]’s effect, could it then be destroyed by a creature removal card and/or a land removal card?  After using Faerie Conclave’s effect, could it be used in [card]Day of the Dragon[/card]’s effect? How would this be different if the card didn’t say “It’s still a land”?)

2) If a card has text which states two separate effects with the same cost, I’m assuming you must choose between one and the other, and do not get both (or it would say “and”) correct? (For example with “[card]Karakas[/card]”  T: Add W to your mana pool.  T: Return target Legend to its owner's hand.)

3) It says on the banned/restricted list that “ante” cards are banned in vintage.  Does this include cards which simply mention “ante” such as [card]Amulet of Quoz[/card]?

4) Do token creatures suffer from summoning sickness?

5) If I use [card]Floodwater Dam[/card] to tap my opponent’s Island, does my opponent get  U ?  And, more generally, if I use any card to tap an opponent’s card, where that opponent’s card has some effect with tapping as a cost, does the opponent get to use the effect, even though I have tapped it through my card’s effect? (hopefully that made some semblance of sense).

6) With cards such as [card]Kormus Bell[/card], can I tap the swamps after they have become creatures to get B ?

7) For cards such as [card]Slate of Ancestry[/card] would tokens count towards the total amount of creatures I control?

8) When a spell card has “affinity for artifacts”  and costs 5UU to play.  If I control seven artifacts, do I play the spell for nothing, or must I still pay the UU?

Sorry about the length. Thanks to everyone for your help!

[Bram]

Welcome to TheManaDrain!

While your deck is not exactly competitive, it's certainly original. Also, good to see that you read up before posting. Vintage is a format that is possibly somewhat different from what you're used to playing, and the people on this site are very competitive. Many of them want to play and discuss only the very best decks, so don't feel insulted if not everyone jumps to respond to this thread.

Your deck appears to lack focus, in that it tries to do too many things at once. A creatureless control strategy that is competitive and somewhat similar to what you're trying to achieve is called Landstill. The search button will yield some decent decklists if you're interested. I'm not saying you should netdeck if you don't want to, but I would suggest looking at the lists just the same and seeing where they differ from yours (and I don't mean just cards; keep the idea of focus in mind when comparing lists).

We all have to start somewhere, and there certainly is a niche for out-of-the-ordinary decks on TMD (in that there are other people interested in them, as well). You seem to have put a lot of thought into your post and that is highly appreciated over here.

That said, your deck can do with some improvement. I'll leave commenting on your build to those more qualified than myself, but let me at least answer some of your additional questions.

1) When cards have an ability which allows you to use them as another type (ie Faerie Conclave becomes a 2/1 blue creature with flying until end of turn. It's still a land.) can they be effected by cards that effect either type. For example, after using Faerie Conclave’s effect, could it then be destroyed by a creature removal card and/or a land removal card? After using Faerie Conclave’s effect, could it be used in Day of the Dragon’s effect? How would this be different if the card didn’t say “It’s still a land”?)

It can be killed by both creature removal (say, [card]Swords to Plowshares[/card] or [card]Lava Dart[/card]) and land destruction (like [card]Stone Rain[/card] or [card]Wasteland[/card]). And yes, you can use it to get an extra  Dragon with Day of the Dragons.

2) If a card has text which states two separate effects with the same cost, I’m assuming you must choose between one and the other, and do not get both (or it would say “and”) correct? (For example with “Karakas” T: Add W to your mana pool. T: Return target Legend to its owner's hand.)

That is correct. A sort of exception to this would be the 'entwine' mechanic, but in that case it is clearly stated on the card that you can pay a cost to get both effects (such as [card]Blinding Beam[/card]).

3) It says on the banned/restricted list that “ante” cards are banned in vintage. Does this include cards which simply mention “ante” such as Amulet of Quoz?

Yes. Amulet of Quoz was my first rare (and buying random boosters hasn't gone uphill from there for me ;-) so I'm kind of fond of it. Ante was used waaaaay back when the game forst came out, but it pissed people off. As such, we can't use the cards in officient Vintage tournaments (you're ofcourse free to use them in casual tournaments or games with your friends).

4) Do token creatures suffer from summoning sickness?

Yes. A thing to note, however, is that many effects make it possible for you to creature a token creature at instant speed at the end of your opponent's turn. In that case, it can attack during your next attack step. Also, if a token creature gets 'bounced' with, say, a [card]Boomerang[/card] it is removed from the game entirely.

5) If I use Floodwater Dam to tap my opponent’s Island, does my opponent get U ? And, more generally, if I use any card to tap an opponent’s card, where that opponent’s card has some effect with tapping as a cost, does the opponent get to use the effect, even though I have tapped it through my card’s effect? (hopefully that made some semblance of sense).

No, your opponent does not get mana from the Dam. It's kind of like how tapping an opponent's creature doesn't make it attack or activate its abilities (you can however do this through for example [card]Mindslaver[/card]).

6) With cards such as Kormus Bell, can I tap the swamps after they have become creatures to get B ?

Yes, except that, if you have a Bell in play, you can't tap a swamp you played this turn for mana, much like it isn;t able to attack yet (unless ofcourse you have some card in play like [card]Fires of Yavimaya[/card] that gives everything haste).

7) For cards such as Slate of Ancestry would tokens count towards the total amount of creatures I control?

Yes. They count as regular creatures for most intents and purposes. Some cards check if a creature is a token or not, however (but in that case it is specifically mentioned like [card]Caller of the Claw[/card]).

8) When a spell card has “affinity for artifacts” and costs 5UU to play. If I control seven artifacts, do I play the spell for nothing, or must I still pay the UU?

You still pay the UU. Affinity only reduces the colorless costs.

Finally, some words on permission card choices:
- Counterspell is really not the best 'counterspell' you can run in Vintage. [card]Force of Will[/card] is far superior, as you can usually play this on the first turn at the expense of a blue card.
- On the same note, [card]Mana Drain[/card] is superior to counterspell since it will net you the mana you need to play some of your rather expensive spells liek Mindslaver, if you decide on keeping those in the deck. Also, you should note that Mindslaver in itself is often a win condition (meaning you can often either scre up an opponent's hand and board beyond recovery, or can just flat out win by paying >20 life for, say, their [card]Necropotence[/card].)

[Kasuras]

Bram covered most of it but forgot this one:

How would this be different if the card didn’t say “It’s still a land”?)

All "manlands" have that.


Over to your deck:

Since you want to run a creatureless mono blue deck, I suggest making mono blue Belcher. There is no discussion going on the deck but doing a quick search on this site will probably give you a good idea how it will look.

To improve your knowledge of the format and the game itself I think reading the rules concerning the stack and articles on the vintage metagame would be a good idea.

Mana Drain and FoW already have been covered.

That said: why do you want a creatureless deck? There isn't really a good reason to not do it except for flavor but you apperantly want your deck to become better: you wouldn't have posted here if the contrary were true.

[Genju of the Wicked]

Bram - Thanks for the welcome, and especially for taking the time to answer all of my questions!

I expected that my deck would not recieve much attention, being that I am a "noob" and am offering something I put together with little knowledge and no play experience (you said 'Vintage is a format somewhat different from what I'm used to playing', well I've never played any format! Not one single match :lol:  Although I do have significant experience in other CCGs).  But I'm glad to see that it's recieved at least a few replies.  

I will check out Landstill, and see what changes I can divine from there (hopefully, finding some way to get more focus).  

In the meantime, I will drop the 4 [card]Counterspell[/card]s for 2 [card]Force of Will[/card] and 2 [card]Mana Drain[/card].  I know this won't really do anything to make the deck closer to being viable, but at least it will make it a little better.


Kasuras - thanks to you also!

I'll check out Blue Belcher and the articles you suggested

As for your question:

That said: why do you want a creatureless deck? There isn't really a good reason to not do it except for flavor but you apperantly want your deck to become better: you wouldn't have posted here if the contrary were true.

This isn't going to be my deck, per se.  I never thought that this would certainly be the deck that I take to my first tournet.  My thought process was more this:  I'll build a deck that seems relatively complicated from scratch, and post it on a site or two that seems to have a decent rep.  Using the comments and fixes I get there, I'll be able to more see how the actual thought process of building a deck works, as well as get a better feel for the game, what mistakes I've made, etc.  Then, if the comments and fixes help me turn it into a viable deck, I can say that I (partially) created my own deck.  However, in the more likely instance that the deck is just completely worthless, I can scrap it and use what I've learned to start on a new type.  

I don't know if you'll agree, but I think the best way to learn how to do something is not to just spend hours reading up on it, but to jump right into it and learn more directly through experience.  

The reason I choose to go creatureless, therefore, is mostly because it seemed like a fairly complex route to take for a starting deck (and because Genju of the Falls kind of lent itself to this deck, and it was the first card that struck me as having great art)...

Another question to add:  How well can "un-powered" (but not necessarily budget) decks fair in vintage tourney play?  I know it will be a while (if ever) before I can get any of the "power 9".

[Freelancer]

Welcome to TMD!!

If you are going to add cards like force of will and mana drain I would suggest adding both as a 4-off since they are by far the best control cards available...

You can probably lower the amount off creature removal since there aren't to many creatures here in vintage (they are hardly viable, since combat phase is kinda bleh )...actually 2x keg, and 4x disk is already enough, and if you feel unsure against creatures play 1/2 more kegs max...(unless your meta is full off random scrubs with 'bad' decks)

The best man land is mishra's factory....(remember; if it came into play this turn it still has summoning sickness, also remember that you can use its ability to pump itself if it's animated/no summoning sickness)

You need draw besides ancestral recall, and it should be instant speed (you need mana open for counters and you are already wasting mana on man-land activations)...(maybe trie intuition-accumulative knowledge, although it has it's disadvantages it is lots of cards for very little mana)

Maybe its a good idea to add 2/3 crucible of worlds instead off chimeric coils since these have synergy with the rest off the deck and don't require a but load off mana/deck space...

4) Do token creatures suffer from summoning sickness?  

Yes. A thing to note, however, is that many effects make it possible for you to creature a token creature at instant speed at the end of your opponent's turn. In that case, it can attack during your next attack step. Also, if a token creature gets 'bounced' with, say, a Boomerang it is removed from the game entirely.

I want to add something to this; If token creatures are sacrificed for a effect (example) and are put into the graveyard they are removed from the game (as Bram noted) but they still touch the graveyard for a split second, this is particulary important for cards that trigger when a creature goes to the graveyard...(this isn't to important but it might come up during games)

Also remember that with a fetchland you can choose not to find a land, this is important when slaving somebody.

You should be aware that decks usually tend to drift towards more well known archetypes/decks, this happens because there are only so many 'best' cards for a certain strategy. Don't feel discouraged though, your deck can still be both competetive and original just don't be suprised if people suggest things that are heavily played in other decks...



Ps. the cards you should cut according to me are:
All off the creature removal/stall besides disks and kegs (total: 10x)
chimeric coils+echo chamber (both to expensive) (total: 4x)
Thran dynamo (not to usefull without coils) (total: 2x)
total: 16 cards

Add:
2x drain
2x force of will
3x crucible
2x intuition
4x accumulative knowledge

Total: 13 cards

This leaves you with 5 more cards you need to cut...

You might consider to proxy this up and play some test game against a goldfish (ie. playing alone) to see how the manabase and spells hold up against eachother, this will also reveal if the deck 'flows' right (ie. mana curve correct)...
After this if you have the time you can start playtesting against good/competetive decks and start finetuning and metagaming...(although the way I read your posts is that this is just 1 step to far   )


Pss. This post became quite long, I kept thinking off things I did wrong when I started lol...I hope it helps though...  


Psss. Your post was so well thought out that I couldnt help making more and more suggestions, consider this as a compliment...

[Bram]

How well can "un-powered" (but not necessarily budget) decks fair in vintage tourney play? I know it will be a while (if ever) before I can get any of the "power 9".

This is a very hot topic of debate. It's good that you make the distinction between unpowered and budget (although there is no consensus on this distinction). There are viable budget decks that capitalize on the slight advantages they may have such as running basic lands and only one color (both of which make the mana base more stable and consistent). Also, they'll often run combinations of creatures or spells that are deemed too low-power for 'tier 1' decks but produce an interesting effect nevertheless (and are possibly quite bad overall but specifically perform decently versus the established decktypes; these are considered hate decks).

These budget decks (like Food Chain Goblins, Mono Green Land Destruction, or the infamous Suicide Black) may occasionally perform well or even win a (powered) tournament, but you should realise that odds are against you and you're fighting an uphill battle. You should have a clear idea of the metagame (i.e. the other decks that are played) and feel very confident playing it, because due to the high power level of the opposing decks, budget decks tend to not 'forgive' a single play mistake on your own side.

Unpowered decks usually refer to watered-down versions of existing decktypes. They still tend to have stuff like Force of Will and dual lands like [card]Tundra[/card]. Obviously they will always be worse than their powered cousins. You'll be able to create less card advantage (Ancestral Recall), less tempo advantage and less mana accelleration which delays your plans by at least a full turn and likely more. These decks have lower 'bounceback potential': they can not as easily recover from problematic situations.

All else being equal (meaning: assuming the same skill level) a powered build will always outperform its unpowered cousin, if enough games are played. However, things are not usually equal. There's sucky opponents (free hint: NEVER be intimidated by power cards...they do NOT mean you're facing a competent player) andalso, you only need to win two games to win a round and six or seven rounds to win the tournament. Bu again: it's an uphill battle.

If you live in the US of A, you have the advantage of being able to visit relatively many so called 'proxy' tournaments: unsactioned events (meaning they're not 'official') that allow anywhere between 5 and 10 placeholders for expensive cards (usally basic lands with the name of the power card chalked on it by a judge).

Hope this helps a little, and good luck with the deck. Above all else: have fun building and playing!

[Kasuras]

The budget matter is indeed a complicated one, and one should understand the metagame before getting to this subject. There are lots and lots of articles on the net about the metagame. I feel I have summarized them pretty good in the following link:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22106

With the following part I forgot to add there:

"Next to the other perspectives, there is also the metagame from a stack perspective. What I mean with that is simple: there are pro-active, reactive and post-active decks and cards.

Pro-active cards are cards that want to deal with threats before they ever reach the table, reactive decks want to deal with threats when they are played and post-active cards are cards that deal with threats after they have hit the table. Pro-active decks are prison and combo (deal with the opponent before they get to play something), reactive decks are counter-based control and post active decks.. actually don't exist in vintage. This is for the simple reason that combo can be devestating and the fact that more spells are played than permanents in this format, or at least a lot of them.

Of course, there are also the mixtures of types such as Keeper: the deck runs both counterspells and things as Swords to Plowshares to get rid of resolved creatures."

That's about it for that perspective.


There is indeed, as Bram already mentioned, a difference in some metagames since some of them allow proxy-cards. (short for proximity, meaning close to something)

In metagames without having access to proxies: you're pretty much screwed. The difference in having power and not having it is in my opinion a gap way too large to get over. You're pretty much limited to hate decks, as Bram already mentioned, to "hate" certain decks in that metagame. Combo is not playable without power since you want to kill the opponent before they can do something: if you can only kill in turn 3, then the opponent surely has a Mana Drain active, and even most aggro decks (even 10 land stompy!) can also have a stable turn 3 goldfish but they're not that much disrupted by counterspells. You want to have control over the game and thus always be a step ahead of the opponent, you can't do that if you're not powered and the opponent is. That leaves you with aggro decks (prison nowadays = workshop.dec) and these are usually hate decks, see above for that.

In a metagame with proxies.. well there is no budget there if you're willing to shell out some cash.

[Genju of the Wicked]

Freelancer - thanks very much for the suggestions and added comments.  As you can see I have taken most of them in the revamped version of the deck.  I've convinced my girlfriend to try out the deck with me, so she can be my goldfish  :lol: (of course, she should be used to it as she has always been the first person I run a deck against in any CCG I've played) .  Any further help on the new version would be great.

However, I'm not sure what you meant by:

Also remember that with a fetchland you can choose not to find a land, this is important when slaving somebody.

Are you simply trying to say that I can just waste their fetchland on nothing when slaving them?


Bram - thanks again for all your help.  You say that there is no consensus on the definition of budget vs. unpowered.  However, what about a deck that only has, let's say, 3 of the power 9?  It's obviously not budget, nor completely unpowered....but I guess this question is not that important as it's purely a matter of semantics.    

Kasuras -thanks to you too.  Although I can't say I understood all of the jargon, I found your linked post helpful (I actually saved it into my articles folder).


Bram and Kasuras (or whoever), although I understand what you are saying about the Power 9 being key to a deck's power level, both of you make it seem as if actually owning all of the power 9 is a relatively common occurance among competitive players.  Is this true?  Forgetting about proxies for a moment, do most sucessful competitive players actually own all of them?  If this is the case, I can't see anyone being truely successful in competitive Vintage play without having played since near the beginning of Magic (and therefore were able to aquire the power 9 early on for cheaper).  It might also be the case that one could get them by dropping several thousand dollars.  However, I've heard that their rarity (that they are not reprinted) and the fact that people cling to them so tightly makes them very hard to come by....so having money might not do it either.

Here is the revamped deck (I realize it still needs quite a bit of work, but these might be the first steps in the right direction).  The main problems I see is that it is still a little too large, and may be missing a viable win condition (are Standstill and Mindslaver enough?).  And although the I realize that they Genju's go against the Standstill theme, I think they might still have some use.

<LANDS>
Mishra's Factory (4)
Faerie Conclave (4)
Library of Alexandria (1)
Tolarian Academy (1)
Island (12)

<ARTIFACTS>
Crucible of Worlds (2)
Black Lotus (1)
Mox Emerald (1)
Mox Jet (1)
Mox Pearl (1)
Mox Ruby (1)
Mox Sapphire (1)
Sol Ring (1)
Grim Monolith (1)
Powder Keg (2)
Nevinyrral's Disk (4)
Mindslaver (2)

<ENCHANTMENTS/INSTANTS/SORCERY>
Genju of the Falls (3)
Standstill (4)
Tinker (1)
Accumulated Knowledge (4)
Time Walk (1)
Ancestral Recall (1)
Force of Will (4)
Mana Drain (4)
Mystical Tutor (1)

[Godder]

However, I'm not sure what you meant by:

Also remember that with a fetchland you can choose not to find a land, this is important when slaving somebody.

Are you simply trying to say that I can just waste their fetchland on nothing when slaving them?

Yes, you can fail to find a land of the appropriate type. You can also take a good look at their deck to see what random tech they're running .

[Kasuras]

Kasuras -thanks to you too. Although I can't say I understood all of the jargon, I found your linked post helpful (I actually saved it into my articles folder).

Send me a pm for the words you didn't understand, I'll be glad to explain them further to you.

About the fetchland: yes, you can just search for nothing. The same can be said about Land Grants in 2-land-Belcher (check SCG's deck to beat) with which you can just up the stormcount for the Tendrils of Agony you also happen to run. (I played 3 Land Grants of nothing yesterday and just got a spellchain of 9 spells so I could barely kill the opponent)

However, these kinds of things are really not necessary to know when you are starting this game.

About p9 being common: yes, about everyone being successful in this game has power. I'm not really the right person to answer this however, since I never played a t1 tournament, but judging by what I hear from other players and the t8s.. I can't but say otherwise. Having power 9 costs you about 7 x 300 + 1 x 450 + 1 x 700 = 3250 dollar. Yes, this is a lot indeed so that's why proxy events are so welcomed.

About your deck: it looks quite similar to controlslaver, so instead of saying how we can improve your deck I'm just going to say how you can improve your deck:

www.magicworkstation.com <-- download the latest version of this program.

Play online magic with a decklist of controlslaver versus random opponents online just to get the hang of the deck and the feel of vintage magic.

Check www.magic-league.com for an explanation of how to use the program.


Granted, MWS is not the best program to use to test for tournaments but it is pretty good to learn better magic fast (use the phases!) and get a general feeling of certain decks.

[Freelancer]

Yeah I know the fetchland thingy isn't to usefull when you are just starting playing, but as I said before I just made a lot off random suggestions and idea's that I came up with...It's always usefull to know...

This is probably the hardest part off deckbuilding (for me that is) cutting down to 60 cards...The first thing that strikes me when looking at this new version is that you do run 4x accumulative knowledge but not 2x intuition, accumulative knowledge is really not that great without intuition to dump the first 2 copies in the graveyard (you know intuition for 3x accumulative knowledge). So this might be the first thing to cut or maybe you can lower the amount off mana sources (currently half your deck is mana sources), the first mana source that I would cut is grim monolith but testing should reveal how many mana sources you should run...
Also you might want to lower the amount off fearie conclaves since the CIPT ability hampers your development in the early game...
Testing will probably also show or your draw engine is good enough, the problem with this type off deck is however that goldfishing is only usefull to determine for instance the number off conclaves and mana sources in a deck especially because you run standstill (wich in a vacuum kinda sucks).

Does your girlfriend know (or can learn) how to play magic? It would be quite interesting if you could make a small test group and proxy several other 'competetive' decks to see how your deck does in actual game play. (however don't forget, your girlfriend doesn't know how to play many decks perfectly so the results might be a bit skewed)

Magic workstation is also quite a good place to test your deck against actual real life players. Remember though they generally aren't that good though...

If you want to make top 8 regularily in a tournament that you really need power 9 and lots of testing in vintage, but if you are okay with winning occasionally than budget (and again testing) should be enough to competete...At 5 power 9 cards you have a really solid deck in doomsday, look it up at www.starcitygames.com (link to article: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8410 ) It is however quite a difficult deck to learn though, the first time you will play with it. You will probably loose horribly (no offence).
Note; Testing is the most important aspect off tournament play.



Ps. Welcome to the best trading card game in the world...

[Bram]

although I understand what you are saying about the Power 9 being key to a deck's power level, both of you make it seem as if actually owning all of the power 9 is a relatively common occurance among competitive players. Is this true?

In my experience, it is. I have the good fortune of living near Eindhoven, Holland, which has one of the highest-powered metagames in the world without allowing proxies (so these are official tournaments).

Most of the guys I regularly practice and go to tournaments with (my team), about 12 of them,  own all 9 (or 10 if you include Library of Alexanria) pieces. Those who don't own all, usually only lack maybe a lesser (green or so) Mox and/or a Twister.

Our monthly tournament tends to draw some 30 to 40 players, about 95% of whome are 'powered'. I also realise this is not the same everywhere in the world (especially if you live near a big proxy tournament location, where you don't really need power).

If this is the case, I can't see anyone being truely successful in competitive Vintage play without having played since near the beginning of Magic (and therefore were able to aquire the power 9 early on for cheaper).

It depends on what you call early on. I've only been playing Vintage for 3 years or so, and I started ouy without any power or expensive cards. If you attend tournaments regularly, you sometimes win a good card here and there, or some boosters which you can trade for dual land or something. You keep your eyes & ears open for peole quitting the game, so you can buy (some of) their stuff for cheap. Also: it's not important to get all the power at once. For example, I started with an unpowered [card]Pox[/card] deck. It kind of sucked, but in an educational way and after a while I found some [card]Nether Void[/card]s, which go in a slightly better deck by the same name. The two decks share many cards, but the latter was more succesful at the time. This deck is mono-black, so I decided having a Mox Jet would be nice, saved up and eventually bought one. I went on buying/trading for power when I needed it until in the end I had a nice Unlimited (white-bordered) set complete. I recently traded it up to a blackbordered Beta set signed by Richard Garfield (the games' creator).

Sure, all this cost me a few bucks, but: every good hobby costs money. Pimpin' out cars, being an audiophile, smoking, collecting...well...anything really: it all costs heaps of cash but that's not a problem if you get a good time out of it. The up side of Vintage magic is that if I decide to quit right now and sell all my stuff, I'll have made a net profit (even when counting the entry fees for tournaments and stuff). Don't expect prices to go down anytime soo, either. Now what other hobby can you have hour of fun with while making an investment at the same time?

It might also be the case that one could get them by dropping several thousand dollars. However, I've heard that their rarity (that they are not reprinted) and the fact that people cling to them so tightly makes them very hard to come by....so having money might not do it either.

A quick lesson in life: other than health and love, money will get you anything in this world (and in a lot of cases, even health and love . I'm very proud of my nice looking set of power, and I wouldn't dream of selling it at a fair price, but let me tell you right now it is for sale anyway. Every thing in this world (every thing...not 'everything'), is...