[Deck] Necromancer - my second deck build

[Genju of the Wicked]

This is my second attempt at constructing a deck, after taking into account the suggestions on my first attempt and doing a little more reading up on the game.  For all those who didn’t see my first post, I am just starting the game and have yet to play an actual match, so all and any help or suggestions are appreciated.   Also please note that I enjoy attempting to make my own decks in the CCGs I play, and do not “netdeck”, so please do not flame me for the quality of my deck in comparison to proven similar decks (I will use others’ decks to get ideas, however, as was the case with this deck, so feel free to direct me to similar decks and articles on specific deck types).

>Land / Mana>
[card]Underground River[/card]   4
[card]Polluted Delta[/card] 2
[card]Swamp[/card]   9
[card]Island[/card]   7
[card]Dark Ritual[/card]   1
[card]Black Lotus[/card]   1
[card]Mox Sapphire[/card]   5
[card]Sol Ring[/card]   1

>Creatures>
[card]Doomed Necromancer[/card]   4
[card]Apprentice Necromancer[/card]   2
[card]Psychatog[/card]   4
[card]Akroma, Angel of Wrath[/card]   1
[card]Scion of Darkness[/card]   1
[card]Phantom Nishoba[/card]   1
[card]Tidal Kraken[/card]   1

>Black Spells>
[card]Necromancy[/card]   2
[card]Necropotence[/card] 1
[card]Demonic Tutor[/card]   1
[card]Zombify[/card]   4
[card]Stitch Together[/card]   2
[card]Buried Alive[/card]   4
[card]Yawgmoths Will[/card]   1
[card]Entomb[/card]   1

>Blue Spells>
[card]Probe[/card]   1
[card]Flux[/card]   2
[card]Frantic Search[/card]   1
[card]Time Walk[/card]   1
[card]Ancestral Recall[/card]   1
[card]Force of Will[/card]   4
[card]Mana Drain[/card]   4
[card]Counterspell[/card]   2


I found an interesting deck from some world champion which focused on bringing powerful creatures from the graveyard into play, using a combination of Black and Red.  From the little bit of familiarity I gained with Blue in making my first deck, I figured that a Blue and Black similar deck might actually work quite well:  Blue and Black seems to fit together well here b/c blue can be used for its Discard, Draw and Counter abilities (that is, putting cards into the GY, without sacrificing too much hand advantage, and remaining protected through “permission” cards) while Black’s purpose is fairly obvious.
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Breakdown (I know most of what I state below will be obvious to experienced players, but I figured it would be helpful to lay out my reasoning behind my choices; please correct me where I’m wrong)

[card]Force of Will[/card], [card]Probe[/card], [card]Flux[/card] and [card]Frantic Search[/card] all allow me to discard choice creatures/cards, without killing my hand (and of course FoW’s primary purpose will be countering, but here it’s alternate cost will often be a benefit).  I couldn’t decide which was the best of the latter 3 cards,  although I’m leaning towards [card]Flux[/card] (as it allows choice of how many cards I discard, plus offers and extra draw) which is why I used 2 copies of it and only 1 of the others.  

 [card]Force of Will[/card], [card]Mana Drain[/card],  and [card]Counterspell[/card] are, of course protection.  The Black/Red version of the deck I saw focused on permanent removal, and I figured “permission” (if that’s the right word) might make an equal or better replacement in Black/Blue.  I was told that Counterspell was not a prime choice for Vintage, however already having the Mana Drains and Force of Wills, I don’t know what is the next best choice (or if 8 permissions is enough, and if I should just take it out altogether, as I note below).  [card]Buried Alive[/card]and [card]Entomb[/card] allow me to search out the win creatures and put them in my grave to be brought back (obvs).

[card]Necromancy[/card], [card]Zombify[/card], [card]Stitch Together[/card], [card]Doomed Necromancer[/card], and [card]Apprentice Necromancer[/card] are here for obvious reasons, however I’m not sure if there are better choices.

[card]Akroma, Angel of Wrath[/card], [card]Scion of Darkness[/card], [card]Phantom Nishoba[/card], [card]Tidal Kraken[/card] are all the discardable creatures, and offer various win conditions.  However, as I’m not familiar with what are the best creatures in the game, there may be better choices.   I wanted to ensure that each had trample or flying or both, and didn’t have upkeep costs which I wouldn’t be able to maintain.  Thinking back, it might have been better if I had chosen more creatures with haste and trample or flying (if any powerful ones exist)…any suggestions on that would be great.

I thought [card]Psychatog[/card] would fit well here as early protection or as an alternate win condition, as so the deck will probably build up a sizeable graveyard pile fairly quickly (and as its BU.

Most of the other card choices should be fairly obvious.  

Questions and Problems is see with the deck:
1) The deck is far too large (77 cards).  However, I think it may be easily fixed by removing an equal portion of each key element of the deck (that is, removing some counters, some discards and some rebirth --  as it stands, I think I might have an overkill amount of cards which bring cards from the graveyard into play).  The reason I haven’t removed any yet, is b/c I am having trouble determining which are the better choices (I might remove both counterspells, but which rebirth and discard cards should go to keep an even or playable ratio between each of the needed elements/aspects of the deck?)…Or I could just remove both Counterspells, keep 4 Forces and Mana Drains, and then remove one of every card which is in has multiple copies except lands to get it around 60.  However, this method seems a little haphazard.

2) I’m still just catching on to this whole “mana curve” thing, and something is wrong with the amount of Lands and other mana sources (Too many? Too Little?).  

3) What is this type of deck commonly called (so I may search for articles/similar decks for comparison)?

[Hi-Val]

Entomb is restricted, so you only get one, unfortunately. I'd reccommend Careful Study as a replacement for it. Also, you might try to work in Duress in the place of Mana Drain/Counterspell. It's not often that you'll be wanting to counter an opponent's spell because hopefully you're reanimating something. Also, with your reanimation, you should probably ditch the Necromancers because they eat up a lot of mana. For a cheaper alternative, take a look at Exhume, Reanimate and Animate Dead. Tidal Kraken and the Psychatogs can come out to free up space, and since you'll probably be worried about opponents trying to kill your creatures with Swords To Plowshares, perhaps a Plated Slagwurm can find its place in the deck. Good luck!

[Genju of the Wicked]

 thanks for the note on Entomb (editted first post), and for your input.

A few questions about your suggestions:

1) Do you think a careful study is warrented since I already have frantic search, flux and probe?   Should careful study replace one of these maybe?  Or might it take entomb's place?

Also, you might try to work in Duress in the place of Mana Drain/Counterspell. It's not often that you'll be wanting to counter an opponent's spell because hopefully you're reanimating something.

2) Is duress better for this deck, simply b/c it's cheaper?  Wouldn't Mana Drain be all around better because it might acutally facilitate my reanimation (by giving me the extra mana) while dispruptiung their deck?

Tidal Kraken and the Psychatogs can come out to free up space

3) SO three creatures for reanimiation is enough?  I enjoy the idea of having a second win condition with the Pyschotog, so I might keep 2.

4) If I take out the Necromancer's don't I lose most of my basic early creature protection?  

I won't update the deck with most of your suggestions yet, as I need to go and find out what all the other cards you suggested do :lol:.

Thanks again!

[sa17dk]

Definitely ditch the Flux/Probes, and add Careful Study instead. You'll probably even want Bazaar if you can get them.

Since Reanimator decks are focused on black, 4 Dark Rituals are absolutely necessary, as they help you dump your creatures on turn 1 via Buried Alive.

As for the creatures, your creature base is horrible. I cant really see the need for 4 Togs, because you wont be filling your graveyard fast enough, and when it is filled up, it'll most likely be the creatures you want to reanimate. If youre going the Exhume/Reanimate route, Akroma is an excellent reanimation choice. Some other good ones include Arcanis, Verdant Force, Sundering Titan, and Phantom Nishoba. Creatures like Tidal Kraken get killed too easily, and dont have useful abilities.

[Genju of the Wicked]

Taking what both you and the previous poster have said into account, I'm starting to think that this deck might be better as Mono-Black (with Force of Wills).  Yes?  

If so, are there any black cards with similar cost and draw/discard powers to Careful Study?

Or might the UB version work is I keep tinkering with it?

[Kasuras]

Taking what both you and the previous poster have said into account, I'm starting to think that this deck might be better as Mono-Black (with Force of Wills). Yes?

You are aware of the fact that Force of Will requires other blue cards to work eh?

Other than that, take a look at this: http://www.morphling.de/deckarchiv.php?deck=21

Mono black is only necessary if you want more than 6 basic lands, which is quite important in today's metagame but is more a thing for future consideration. I'd say 2 colors is fine for a reanimator deck, which one to choose is up to you: check out every color and what it can do for the theme you are looking for.

[AnFgangsta]

Bazaars are great in this deck but if you are on a budget obviously you need to find alternatives...Attunement works well here.

As for your recursion...WHERE IS EXHUME? :p I mean Ive seen many Mono Black reanimators..you could also splash green for oxidize which is some key tech.  As far as the creatures are concerned, I would go Akroma, Spirit of the Night, Phantom Nishoba..stuff like that. Visara is pretty cool also, and if you play Cabal Therapy (good for ditching your creatures or making opponent discard) in combo with Symbiotic Wurm that = delicious.

I mean if you insist on playing reanimator..just drop blue and Proxy Bazaars (Assuming you were proxying the power and Drains) and the deck will be towards its absolute peak.  Reanimate is a great card but conflicts with your Akroma and SoTN

Nights Whisper is nice, draw into Cabal Therapy (assuming you will be playing it)..going budget Reanimator is hard..the deck loses a lot of its power that way =( I can only reiterate the necessity of Bazaar..and even then the deck is past its prime, too much graveyard hate..although Exhume does sneak around Ground Seal last I knew (too lazy to start up MWS to read if it targets graveyard creatures for each player, if so disregard this suggestion).

[WilD]

I don't know whether someone said this yet, but FOW is RFG, not to your Graveyard - you can't pitch it to creatures.

[Genju of the Wicked]

hmmm, maybe I rushed into this second build a little too quickly and should have stuck with tweaking the first.... regardless, I'll press on until it becomes halfway decent.

sa17dk - thanks for the input.  I'm currently trying to figure out the whole mana curve thing, and realized that I didn't have near enough low cost spells in the deck, to make any sort of a first turn move.  So all those suggestions we very helpful.

----

You are aware of the fact that Force of Will requires other blue cards to work eh?

Kasuras -    guess I don't know the card as well as I thought.  For some reason I could've sworn that you could discard any card...but I guess that might make it a bit too powerful.

And thanks for the link, I've been trying to find something like this deck (besides the original) to help mine out, but had no idea what it was called so I could search it.

AnFgangsta - Didn't know about exhume until recently (since I have little idea about the 1000s of cards in the game, I've just been searching through a spreadsheet of all the cards I made from Oracle, and so I'm sure the filters I use exlcude some important cards now and then).

Now that I've seen a few of these decks, Bazaar of Baghdad seems to be a pretty popular.  However, isn't it a little slow?  Won't it just end up putting me a turn behind in my accumulation of mana (since I won't get to play and Island or swamp), when I could get a similar effect from something like Careful Study, while still being able to play a manasource land that turn?

I might put togther 2 versions of the deck, a mono and a BU and test them out to see which runs better for me.

I don't know whether someone said this yet, but FOW is RFG, not to your Graveyard - you can't pitch it to creatures.

WilD - thanks.  Again more evidence that maybe I rushed into this second deck a little too quickly and that I should read things more carefully.


And 2 questions to add:

1) Is it customary on this forum to note when you are using proxies?  I really didn't figure it mattered either way, but have seen people noting it in their decks lists.  Any reasoning behind this?

2) Have Reanimator decks had any success in the current "world meta" or in your guys' particular metas?  Although the original decklist I saw claimed to come from a world champ, it seemed to be out of date, and I'm not sure if it was a Vintage deck, as it was missing several of the cards that have been suggested, as well as being unpowered.

[Freelancer]

About the questions:
1) Proxy's are generally added to make sure people wont suggest to add for instance 4x bazaar of baghdad 5x solo moxen a lotus blue power and drains to a deck while they are at 5 proxy budget, if you see what I mean?
2) Reanimator decks are often used by beginners since they tend to love the big creatures and they ass whooping they provide...The most recent successes off reanimator is in a different format called extended where at the moment reanimator is one off the prime decks...In vintage however reanimator is overshadowed by other decks that do it better and faster (dragon combo, oath and even regular aggro decks can outrace reanimator)...


The reason duress is probably better for your type off deck is that you want the opponent to deal with the threads you present, duress is a pro-active (meaning that it comes online before a thread actually becomes a thread) answer to whatever answer the opponent has to your threads. A mana drain is also quite hard to cast when you attempt to protect a reanimation spell...


A mana curve is a quite illusive thing, the general discription I can give is that it presents how your 1 mana cost 2 mana cost (etc.) are spreaded.
The best way to discover or you curve is about right is by making a table like this:

Mana cost ------------------Number off cards
1 ---------------------------- 8
2 ---------------------------- 2
3 ---------------------------- 10
4 ---------------------------- 4
5 ---------------------------- 3

(the ------ are spaces, the mana drain messes with my table )

As you can see this (example) curve doesn't have enough two drops and you should probably move some 3 mana cost spells to your 2 cost slot by replacing them with other card that serve a similar function but are a bit cheaper...

The curve off a deck should be a bit heavy on the 1,2 and 3 drops while the 4 and 5 drops are in lower numbers (you will be drawing into these naturally anyway). However in vintage mana curves aren't to recognized because they are generally packed from 1 to 3 mana and use moxen to accelerate there curve...

The final way to see if your curve is correct is by testing and testing and testing some more...(yeah that word testing comes up way to often, but is quite necessary )



Ps. This is the best description I can give and in my own words...So if any well known 'vintage adepts' can chime in on this it would be greatly appreciated...

[Revvik]

Another option, if you decide to go the blue route:

Compulsion + Deep Analysis as a draw engine
Intuition to help find creatures & Deep Analyses (Intuition for DA against some control builds can really help you overpower them), and you could also go the "why not" route and run Accumulated Knowledges, turning this into a pseudo Reanimator/Control.  If going the AK route, it may be best to try proxying up a netdecked Control Slaver / Psychatog build for a feel of how those decks operate.

Careful Study, for reasons already mentioned.  Sorcery speed is kinda bad, but it furthers the gameplan.

Intuition really lets you cut down on the number of creatures you can run, forming sort of a "toolbox."  A good example (interchangeable with the decks you expect to face, this toolbox would be pretty good against multi-colored control decks / decks utilizing spot removal):

Sundering Titan
2 Plated Slagwurm
Platinum Angel

And a good mix of animate effects would be Reanimate (although this could really hurt unless the creature you animate WILL end the game) Animate Dead, Exhume.

I hope any of the ideas presented here are helpful, and good luck.

[doomhed]

I cannot believe I am the first to realise this- all moxes are restricted. you have 5 mox sapphire listed. this needs to be corected.

 and, you may want to up the dark ritual count to 4, since it is not restricted.

you may also want to get 4 underground sea and up the polluted deltas to 4, since the are both strictly better than underground rivers (you also have 4 more slots to work with when you cut down to 1 sapphire)

[Revvik]

5 moxen, he just linked to one of them.

[E Face]

This may very well be the most refreshing thread in the newbie forum. It's good to see that somebody out there is just getting into Type 1, and its great to see our community helping out a true beginner without harsh flames or incessant "n00b" remarks.

Just one tip of advice, while it is extremely convenient for readers to click on the links of cards that you have listed that they are not familiar with, it is probably not necessary. Most of the users here on TMD know most of magic's cards, so you would be able to save a TON of time if you didnt have to link all the cards.

Goodluck with your deck, hope it works great for you!

[the boogie man]

I also agree that the underground rivers should be cut for underground seas or something of the like. and the polluted deltas should be upped(verb?) to four. I believe that the necromancers could b cut for more regular reanimation spells. the reanimated creatures serve as lockers and whatnot.

I think that you can just run reanimate and exhume. If your worried about life loss, run the phantom nishobas, ass they are huge, tramply, and take damage very well. and after they die, you can just re-reanimate it. plus, they give you the life back after one attack step. plus, they create a 14 life swing when unblocked, and it doesn't taper much after that. i's really hard to kill someone whos life is easilly in the forties.

anywho, i wanted to commend you on your post, that was presented very well and with a lot of foresight and blahdy blah. but yes, very well thought out.