Boseiju, Who Shelters All VS Squelch

[KDenz81]

In a Type 2 tourney, I saw this kid running a mono blue deck and he ran up against a Tooth and Nail deck.  The guy running Tooth and Nail had out Boseiju and tapped it, payed the 2 life, added 1 collorless, and then the guy running mono blue tried to Squelch the ability of.  "If that mana is spent on an instant or sorcery spell, that spell can't be countered by spells or abilities."  Is that possible?
Just curious to see if that works.  If not, then I know you could just Squelch the Entwine cost of Tooth and Nail instead.

[Toad]

Squelch
Counter target activated ability.

Boseiju = mana ability
Entwine = static ability

So basically :

1. No.
2. You know wrong.

[KDenz81]

No, Entwine is not a static ability.  It is a secondary ability that is attached to the card.  The static ability of Tooth and Nail is searching for the 2 creatures and putting them into your hand.  You have to activate the Entwine cost by paying for it.  

so

1: No
2: Yes

[Jujulautre]

403.1. An activated ability is written as “[cost]: [effect].” The activation cost is everything before the colon ( : ). An ability’s activation cost must be paid by the player who is playing it.

405.1. A static ability does something all the time rather than being activated or triggered. The ability isn’t played—it just “exists.” Such abilities apply only while the ability is on a permanent in play, unless the ability is covered by rule 402.8 or 402.9.

502.32a Entwine is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. “Entwine [cost]” means “You may choose to use all modes of this spell instead of just one. If you do, you pay an additional [cost].” Using the entwine ability follows the rules for choosing modes and paying additional costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f–h.

I really think you shoul read the rules before saying Toad is wrong

[Danzig]

I agree with Toad.
Yuo losted.

[KDenz81]

Jujulautre wrote:
Comprules wrote:
403.1. An activated ability is written as “[cost]: [effect].” The activation cost is everything before the colon ( : ). An ability’s activation cost must be paid by the player who is playing it.
Comprules wrote:
405.1. A static ability does something all the time rather than being activated or triggered. The ability isn’t played—it just “exists.” Such abilities apply only while the ability is on a permanent in play, unless the ability is covered by rule 402.8 or 402.9.
Comprules wrote:
502.32a Entwine is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. “Entwine [cost]” means “You may choose to use all modes of this spell instead of just one. If you do, you pay an additional [cost].” Using the entwine ability follows the rules for choosing modes and paying additional costs in rules 409.1b and 409.1f–h.

Ok, I'll explin how Squelch can stop Tooth and Nail's Entwine.  And this was explained to me by a DCI Judge

He asked me: "Is Entwine an ability, yes or no?"

I answered: "Yes."

He then asked: "Do you have to activate the entwine ability?"

I answered: "Yes, you have to spend 2 extra to play all modes of the card."

He then responded and said: "Then it becomes a perfectly legal target for Squelch, which Counters target activated ability.  The ability becomes active and goes on the stack, and therefor you may counter it with things like Stifle or Squelch."

I've used Squelch and Stifle to counter Entwine before, as well as Buyback, Flashback, and Cycling.  Entwine is a static ability that becomes active when you pay the cost.  

If somehow I'm wrong and you can't do this, I'd like to make this point.  That one of the basic rules in magic that I've learned is that there's ALWAYS a way around another card's ability.  If I'm wrong, then combos like Tooth and Nail with Boseiju is literally unstopable, and that's just not any fun.

[Jebus]

In the future, please reply to the existing thread rather than making a new topic.  I will merge this thread into the other one.

Squelch has no interaction whatsoever with Entwine, Buyback, or Flashback.

None of these are activated abilities.

Cycling can be stopped as it is an activated ability.

The judge you spoke with was very mistaken and his rationale did not match anything in the Comp Rules.

All relevant rules have been posted on this matter.

Activated abilities are written as COST:EFFECT.  Static abilities such as Buyback and Entwine do not follow this format.

As well, the rules for these abilities define them as being Static abilities and not activated abilities.

[Bram]

And for future reference, KDenz81: just because a judge told you it works, doesn't make it so. I've seen judges make rulings that were both mindboggling and wrong. They too merely interpret the rules, except they should on average do it a little more correctly than you and I

[KDenz81]

That's why I argued the point so vigorously.  Since a judge told me I belived it to be true, and now that I know that he was wrong it makes me feel a little gullible to have believed him so much.  That and he let me get away with two wins in a match.  But now that I know that Squelch can't counter a Tooth and Nail's ability I'll can provide this information if anyone else tries to pull this off.

Also, I haven't looked at the current rule book.  Heck, the most recent rule book I have is Ice Age, lol.  

So as I stated earlier, there still has to be a way around Boseiju and Tooth and Nail decks.  If I can't counter the spell, or the ability, I could still do something.  I'll take out Squelch and put in Deflection, I've got about 11 of 'em and target myself with the Tooth and Nail w/ Entwine instead of my opponent.

Thank you for the ruling guys.

[Toad]

Tooth and Nails does not target.

[Limbo]

So as I stated earlier, there still has to be a way around Boseiju and Tooth and Nail decks.  If I can't counter the spell, or the ability, I could still do something.  I'll take out Squelch and put in Deflection, I've got about 11 of 'em and target myself with the Tooth and Nail w/ Entwine instead of my opponent.

This wont work, as Tooth and Nail doesn't target a player.

A solution might be destroying the Boseyu before it untaps?

[Jujulautre]

A solution might be destroying the Boseyu before it untaps?

Play Boseiju  

[Matt]

Bounce the guys Tooth put into play?

[KDenz81]

Destroying Boseiju would be a good idea.  However, there is no instant speed LD in type 2.  Early Frost is an instant that taps down three lands.  However, mana abilities are faster than instants.  They can just pay 2 life, add the colorless and play something that's an Instant but not their Tooth and Nail with Entwine because it's a Sorcery.  

The problem with Tooth and Nail is if your opponent has the mana for it, and if they have it in hand.  However, usually good players don't play Boseiju until they've got enough mana for the Tooth and Nail w/ Entwine in the first place.  

Since Tooth and Nail doesn't target and just says "you may search your library..."  I don't see another way around this since Deflection nor Squelch will work.  Hopefully there will be a card in Saviors that will stop it.  If not, it will continue to be a broken combo.  As soon as Ravager decks die, Tooth and Nail decks will be perhaps one of the best decks in Type II.

Now, Early Frost is the only thing I could come up with that could counter act Boseiju, because you can tap it down in response to their untap phase, but to keep it tapped down, Mono Blue Control would have to run Early Frost on a Stick (Isochron Scepter) to tap it down every turn during their opponents untap phase.  But they can still use Boseiju to play Tooth and Nail

Time Stop however, is the only thing that could STOP Tooth and Nail and Boseiju no matter what.

[Ephraim]

You mentioned earlier that you think that every strategy in Magic should have a counter strategy. Rather than being frustrated that Boseiju has no counter strategy, think instead that Boseiju is the counter strategy to counter magic. As far as the seeming brokenness of Boseiju + any huge spell, recall the old adage that notes that resolving a huge spell should cause you to win. Obviously, Boseiju makes resolution a lot easier, but you still have to ramp up to 9 mana for Tooth and Nail to be really effective. Yes, there are acceleration strategies, but there must be something you can do while you're opponent is reaching for 9 mana that can put a damper on his plans.

[Rebel7284]

In my experience [card]Bribery[/card] works very very well against tooth and nail decks.  If you are running a blue deck, which it seems like you are, it may be a great sideboard card.

[Jebus]

Since the rules issue has been resolved and discussion no longer pertains to rules issues, I will now lock this thread.