An issue from the creation forum. Land tokens

[Pizzatog]

A rules issue has come up in the card creation forum due to a card I made (which apparently appeared first on Brainburst by someone else). How would this effect work into the rules?

Version 1:

(Sorcery)
All creatures are Forests.


Version 2:

(Sorcery)
Remove all creatures in play from the game, for each creature removed this way, that creature's controller puts a Basic Forest Land token into play tapped.


So how would the rules, based on previous related effects, handle in the most efficient way creatures becoming lands or land tokens?

[Jebus]

The comp rules specifically reference creature tokens.

This could be updated to include tokens of other types or another rule could be added to cover land tokens.

[Pizzatog]

So how would a ruling like that read?

And how would it be templated on a card?

And how would the first effect be handled by the existing rules? (Target creature becomes a Forest)

[epeeguy]

The easiest way to word such a card within the existing rules would be to template it like this:

Put a metamorphsis counter on each creature.  Each creature becomes a land with the forest subtype. (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)

The first portion of the wording would simply put a counter on the creature so as to remind people that it was affected by the spell originally.  The second portion of the effect is the actual rule itself, and simply changes creatures into forests.  Removing the counter won't change that.  Future creatures coming into play would also be unaffected.

[ProZachar]

The comp rules specifically reference creature tokens.

This could be updated to include tokens of other types or another rule could be added to cover land tokens.

You could say that they already handle tokens that aren't creatures.  Kiki-Jiki-ing an animated land produces a token that is a land and not a creature (barring other effects, of course).

[Gabethebabe]

Version 1 would be OK from rules point of view.

212.1b. When an object’s type changes, the new type(s) replaces any existing types. Counters, effects, and damage affecting the object remain with it, even if they are meaningless to the new type. Similarly, when the subtypes of one of an object’s types change, the new subtype(s) replaces any existing subtypes of that type. If an object’s type is removed, the subtypes of its old type don’t exist in any way under the new type. Those subtypes disappear completely for the entire time the object’s type is removed. Removing an object’s subtype doesn’t affect its types at all.

All subtypes of the creatures are removed by the subtype "Forest". All abilities are removed and replaced with "Tap: add G to your mana pool" and the creatures cease to be creatures, since you do not state the opposite.

Soul Sculptur BTW can change creature tokens into enchantment tokens

[epeeguy]

All subtypes of the creatures are removed by the subtype "Forest". All abilities are removed and replaced with "Tap: add G to your mana pool" and the creatures cease to be creatures, since you do not state the opposite.

No, actually it wouldn't.

1.)  Firstly, unless it was actually a land, it wouldn't have a mana producing ability (rule 212.6d).  So, while it might get the "Forest" land (sub)type, unless it is actually a land, it doesn't gain the mana ability.

2.)  Secondly, you are only replacing a subtype here, not a type.  You can change the subtype of an object without changing the type of the object.  It's only when you change the type of an object that it would lose the current type and subtypes.  But changing the subtype doesn't affect the type at all.  That's basically what 212.1b gets at.

So, with the first wording, they would indeed be "Creature - Forests", but they wouldn't do anything special.  You have to wipe out the existing type (change "Creature" to "Land") in order for it to work.

[Pizzatog]

Thanks for the help.

Since target creature is a forest doesnt work quite right, how would you word it in a simple manner?

Target creature is a land and a forest???

[epeeguy]

Since target creature is a forest doesnt work quite right, how would you word it in a simple manner?

See my suggested wording about three or four replies earlier in the thread.