Analysis of various Oath combo kills

[Vegeta2711]

Lately there has been many examples of adding mini-combo engines into Oath itself to win the game quicker than just swinging for 20. I just wanted to take a look at many of the advantages and disadvantages each one offers in comparision to one another and the original kill.

Alright, let's start by simply naming each of the kills and what they consist of / what they do.

Spirit of the Night and Akroma and swing until opponent is dead. They really are only used because they have 6 power, are hasty and have evasion. Not much else to say on them.

Ancient Hydra is a viable option, because when he is oathed into play you can use him to shoot things like Goblin Welder and other small weenie creatures. He's also a 5/1, which means you can use him a few times to clear the board, then attack next turn with a hasted creature and still deal 11. Alternatively you can use him for direct damage (up to 5 points worth) die and then shuffle him back in if you want to bring him back.

Triskellion is another valid choice and much of what has been said about Ancient Hydra applies here too. The main differences being, Trike shoots for free, but is only a 4/4 (And he gets smaller every shot), is an artifact and only carries 3 potential pings. Hence why Hydra usually gets the nod over him.

Platinum Angel is commonly used in combo matches (Brought in from the board) thanks to the 'I can't lose, neener neener' ability. Though signifcant smaller than Akroma, Spirit or Hyrda the ability she has combined with counters is a very good way to stall combo out until you can win. She's so-so against Welder decks, so it's typical for her to only be boarded in.

Pristine Angel is the common mirror match 'tech', since you run an assload of instants, which means she can easily become unblockable and untap to block the opponents creatures. She's typically a little too slow and high-maintence outside of the Oath mirror, but I have seen her successfully used in matches like Tog and GAT which only have 1-2 threats to attack you with. Usually comes in from the board for these specfic matches.

And that's really it for commonly seen creatures, I could do write-up's on DSC, Cognivore and stuff... but nobody really even plays them and they aren't that god compared to the other wins. So not much of a point to that

Consists of 2 kill creatures and 2 Gaea's Blessing to prevent decking via Oath.

Advantages
-The most dependable of the kills (I.E. you'll always be getting what you expect, plus blessing)
-Can block opposing critters
-Isn't affected by grave hate
-Is a compact kill

Disadvantages
-Takes the longest to win
-Creature removal is actually good against it

Rector kill: Oath up Academy Rector while hopefully putting Cabal Therapy in the graveyard. Flashback Therapy, sac Rector and fish out Bargain (Or something similar). Draw 17-19 cards and then Tendrils the opponent out. Reclamation up Yawg's Will in the off-chance you are unable to fetch anything with Rector after 2-3 Oath activations.

Consists of 4 Cabal Therapy, 1 Krosan Reclamation, Necropotence, 1 Future Sight, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Yawgmoth's Will, 1-2 Academy Rector and 1-2 Tendrils of Agony.

Advantages
-Many 'mini' combos get added to the deck through so many broken cards
-Rector is a good back-up engine with Oath
-The ability to win immidately after assembling the combo

Disadvantages
-Life matters
-Loss of a HUGE amount of maindeck space
-Opens you up to grave hate

Eternal Witness kill: Attempting to mill enough of the library from an Oath activation to hit Yawgmoth's Will with an oathed up Eternal Witness. If it misses, it should have a back-up win consisting of Krosan Reclamation a winning Will.

Consists of 1 Eternal Witness, Yawgmoth's Will, 1-2 Tendrils of Agony and 1 Krosan Reclamation.

Advantages
-None

Disadvantages
-Combo is hit or miss
-It's awful

Krosan Reclamation kill: You activate Oath and mill the entire library into the graveyard. Then cast Krosan Reclamation on Yawgmoth's Will, cast Will and bring back enough 0cc artifacts / spells to cast a game winning Tendrils.

Consists of Yawgmoth's Will, 1 Tendrils of Agony and 1 Krosan Reclamation.

Advantages
-Win immediately after Oath activation
-Takes up less room than even the original kill

Disadvantages
-Relies on having 5 mana in play before Oath'ing
-Is vunerable to grave hate
-Is forced to protect the Reclamation or you'll lose immediately

w00t, that's all.

[Coleco]

You forgot one.  Aurioath is the name i think.

Its oath with Auriok Salvager. You Oath a salvager and hopefully put a Spellbomb and Black Lotus or LED in graveyard, then combo.

tournament report with a Aurioath deck:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22217

[Vegeta2711]

Good catch, though from best I can tell, it practically falls under the Eternal Witness plan. Hope you get X and Y into the graveyard and then if you miss, you have to activate Oath again to win the game. Meh.

[LotusHead]

I beg to differ.

Oath Salvager decks use Oath to get the Salvagers on the field.  Dumping a choice portion of the deck into the graveyard is not always necessary. (Ie, Intuition in hand, or actual combo pieces).

Plus, Yawgmoth's Will and/or Tendrils of Agony make Witness decks pretty different.

so, to add to your list:

Auriok Salvagers/Lotus/Spellbomb Kill: Uses Auriok Salvager to recur a Black Lotus or Lion's Eye Diamond to generate large amounts of mana, then killing with a Pyrite Spellbomb or Brain Freeze or whatever.  Each Spellbomb has a cantrip effect so on can draw his/her deck to get all the cards.

Advantages:
- Does not need Oath for combo to work
- Has lame draw engine built in (spellbombs w/Salvagers) (kinda like Mind's Eye)
- Can re-cast kill cards over and over (as opposed to protecting Yawg Will)
- Has many cards that enable the combo once Salvagers hit play (Intuition, Brainstorm, Cunning Wish and various Spellbombs are useful outside the combo)

Disadvantages:
- Hurt by hate that all combo decks face.

Edit: Lastly, there is the obvious but not neccessarily the best kill option of a buncha Darksteel Colossi maindeck with or without Berzerks maindeck or as a Wish Target.  Granted, nobody t8'd with this plan yet, by many Vintage players netdeck exclusively. How many times DO you have to swing with a Colossus for the win, anyways? End Edit)

I am curious to see what kind of other Oath combo builds people are working on, even if they are not completely finished decks.  Like Bringer of the White Dawn and MindSlaver! (needs 4 Mana on field to go off).

For example, the Idea that I scrapped 2 days ago was an Oath of Kaminari deck using Kamigawa Block Arcane Spells and Oath of Druids.  When Oath hits, I dumped the library into the yard, and cast Ire of Kaminari for about 17 or so.  The build kinda sucked, even with 12 counters (eight of which were free), but it was an idea.

[moxdiamd]

Rector kill: Oath up Academy Rector while hopefully putting Cabal Therapy in the graveyard. Flashback Therapy, sac Rector and fish out Bargain (Or something similar). Draw 17-19 cards and then Tendrils the opponent out. Reclamation up Yawg's Will in the off-chance you are unable to fetch anything with Rector after 2-3 Oath activations.

Consists of 4 Cabal Therapy, 1 Krosan Reclamation, Necropotence, 1 Future Sight, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Yawgmoth's Will, 1-2 Academy Rector and 1-2 Tendrils of Agony.

Advantages
-Many 'mini' combos get added to the deck through so many broken cards
-Rector is a good back-up engine with Oath
-The ability to win immidately after assembling the combo

Disadvantages
-Life matters
-Loss of a HUGE amount of maindeck space
-Opens you up to grave hate

.

Does anyone have a decklist of this Oath build?  I am very interested in trying out this version.

[Ahab1248]

The interesting thing about this discussion is that no one is commenting on the type of deck that runs each of these kills. The original Meandeck Oath kill, was found in a control/ aggro-control deck. Boasting 14 counters, and a ridiculous draw engine it can often dictate the tempo of the game until a Oath hits and then goes to the dome with backup.

Most other Oath kills are based around searching for the combo and just winning. In oath of Auriok only 4-8 disruption is run, but this is fine because you can win on turn 2 or 3.

Decks containing Oath should not be lumped together as Oath decks instead, they should be seen in the classic aggro?/combo/control spectrum, and happen to have a Oath win.

[ruken]

It's thoroughly retarded, but I'd love to see someone make an Oath deck with Dragon Tyrant and Dragon Breath for a game 1 surprise.  Oath is supposed to win in three turns, not one.  (Ergo.. dump Dragon Breath in the yard looking for Dragon Tyrant.. Tyrant comes into play, Dragon Breath enchants it.. pump it once or twice with your Forbidden Orchards.. blam, 20 damage.  Retarded.)

Also, how good is Gifts Ungiven in Oath?  I realize the point of Oath is to be able to dump a lethal combo with a stupidly low casting cost, but putting cards in your hand is somewhat good I heard.  Perhaps it could help with the Auriok Salvagers version of Oath, in particular, by obtaining/dumping combo pieces.  What do you all think?

[Kasuras]

Also, how good is Gifts Ungiven in Oath? I realize the point of Oath is to be able to dump a lethal combo with a stupidly low casting cost, but putting cards in your hand is somewhat good I heard. Perhaps it could help with the Auriok Salvagers version of Oath, in particular, by obtaining/dumping combo pieces. What do you all think?

Intuition fetches you AK and Oath, which is obviously better than Gifts for something random since Intuition will just let you win. Intuition is also better in Salvagers I think because you don't have more than 3 kill cards and it doesn't matter if the cards are in the graveyard: that's where they're supposed to be!

It's thoroughly retarded, but I'd love to see someone make an Oath deck with Dragon Tyrant and Dragon Breath for a game 1 surprise. Oath is supposed to win in three turns, not one. (Ergo.. dump Dragon Breath in the yard looking for Dragon Tyrant.. Tyrant comes into play, Dragon Breath enchants it.. pump it once or twice with your Forbidden Orchards.. blam, 20 damage. Retarded.)

Blessing is better than Dragon Breath since Breath is a dead card in hand. Also: the chance of flipping the Breath before the Dragon is 50%, which isn't much compared to the certainty of Blessing. (which is 100% due to Brainstorm)


What I'd like to see from Veggy is an analysis of the different kills mentioned in the first paragraph:

The original kill: Oath up Spirit of the Night and Akroma and swing until opponent is dead. Ancient Hydra, Platinum Angel and other critters are also viable for this maindeck kill slot.

Mainly: which other creatures do you mean? And an analysis of the difference such as Platinum Angel over Exalted Angel or visa versa for example. Such things.

[warble]

I think the most beneficial deck is still not listed in your initial post:

Auriok Salvagers.

If you have LeD or Lotus you get infinite mana after your Oath Activation.  It is also a MUCH safer kill because you don't need Oath, you end up hardcasting Salvagers a good half of the time.

You get infinite damage with a simple 1-cost cantrip artifact, and can draw your deck with that same dumb old artifact.  Given that your win condition is actually a cantrip that has dual functionality, I would say it brings to Oath the true control nature that it was lacking before the Auriok Salvagers build was out there.  As a Control Slaver player it is also the only version of Oath I'm scared of.  Because it can whoop my butt early, late, and turn 1 too.  Please add Auriok Salvagers to the decks, it's really what you should be discussing, not aggro Oath because it's so much more versatile to have salvagers.

[Rastadon]

Salvager Oath can only be good with both Lotus and LED. Otherwise, people board in Extract, and that's just absolutely sad.

Not to mention there's times where you just entirely miss both LED and Lotus and hit Salvager first. It's rare, but it happens.

[E Face]

Salvager Oath can only be good with both Lotus and LED. Otherwise, people board in Extract, and that's just absolutely sad.    

Is Extract a card that many (if any) decks run in their sideboard? My guess is probably not, unless its some new tech i missed out on, so that it is not a good reason to not run the Salvagers kill. However, a good reason to not run Salvagers is all the combo hate that is in most metas right now. Running Salvagers in the deck without any other win condition makes the deck very vulnerable to combo hate like Arcane Lab, Null Rod, Pyrostatic Pillar, Tormod's Crypt, Ground Seal, Root Maze etc... Those are generally cards that the Oath deck does not have to worry about post board but will now have too. It also takes away from the decks ability to beatdown if the combo does not filter into the graveyard, because a Salvagers clock with no combo is just awful mostly.

[LotusHead]

I think the most beneficial deck is still not listed in your initial post:

Auriok Salvagers.

If you have LeD or Lotus you get infinite mana after your Oath Activation.  It is also a MUCH safer kill because you don't need Oath, you end up hardcasting Salvagers a good half of the time.

Shhhhh..... You're giving away our secret. Oath Salvagers has 6 Auriok Salvagers MAINDECK! It's almost like cheating! Ask anyone else who won piece of power (with Oath/Salvagers)  in the last month! There are several of us now!

yeah, any analysis of Oath Combo or simply Combo that doesn't include Salvagers is just asking to get their asses kicked.

Still, what other combo decks utilizing Oath of Druids exists, viable or not?

Oath/Vedalken Orrerey.dec? Oath Ire of Kaminari.dec? What?

Oath PREACHER.dec?!?!?!?

[Vegeta2711]

If one of you would like to write up an analysis of your own, feel free. Especially since you have more experince with such a deck than I do. Also note I simply didn't know any of those decks had done well at the time I wrote the inital post.

Otherwise shut the hell up with all this stupid sarcastic bragging. 'omg look we finally built a deck that didn't suck complete ass, lolloololol.'  

[warble]

Analysis of the oath builds:

Salvagers:

10% - I won on turn 1
20% - I won on turn 2
20% - I won on turn 3 with Force Backup
30% - I couldn't lay an oath but hardcast Salvagers and it was beautiful.
20% - My deck stalled out and I lost (maybe I still win because I'm an oath deck = consistent as heyellll)

Other Oaths:

0% - I won on turn 1
0% - I won on turn 2
15% - I won on turn 3 because they used a fetch and force and I had a gawd draw.
40% - I was able to control the game and lay down an oath with force backup
30% - I was able to control the game and lay down an oath with backup but couldn't use all of my counters so I lost anyhow.
15% - My deck stalled out and I lost

So, as you can see, Salvagers stalls out more then oath.  But Oath didn't seem to win on turns 1 or 2...ever...and only drew a gawd draw 10% of the time...giving it a lame turn 3 win that only fcg would be proud of.  So, unfortunately, it is really easy to do this analysis.  You can win on turns 1 or 2, or you can just sit on your butt with oath.  One other aspect is that it is much EASIER to play a turn 1 combo deck, becuase you're looking for only 2 cards(and replicas) from your deck and when you draw multiples and enough mana to cast them it's very easy to keep without counters.  You mulligan without fear because your balls are cast in the iron of having a combo deck.  And when you get down to 4 cards and they read forbidden orchard, mox, oath, oath you cry tears of joy because you're running the oath engine like it should be run.

Okay so those numbers don't tell the tale of the sad oath deck that runs a combo much weaker then salvagers.  But those decks...they have only oath to count on...so why would you run that exactly?

EDIT:  Numbers against non-force/duress strictly for goldfishing.  I am not attempting to post numbers against CS, Sensei, TPS because I don't have the numbers yet.  Numbers are provided for reference only, can be used to reference deck difference.  For example, if you lose 30% to CS because of force and 30% because of mana drain, adjust percentages to be:

Salvagers:

7% - I won on turn 1
14% - I won on turn 2
8% - I won on turn 3 with Force Backup
30% - I couldn't lay an oath but hardcast Salvagers and it was beautiful.
20% - My deck stalled out and I lost
21% - Hard battle lost to Mana Drain and Force

Giving you 59% win, 41% loss.

Sorry if this is too complexated, if you don't like math just skip this post.

[Kasuras]

Those numbers are fine and all, but not only do they go against the rules of TMD itself but they seem taken out of straight air to me. How did you get those numbers? Really, numbers can only be referenced if you have either goldfish data from 100+ games (and that still doesn't count as good evidence!) or something else.

Now, if you had played about 100 games or more and can give me the exact goldfish rate instead of numbers such as 20% which CANNOT be accurate. Or perhaps if you had taken the wonderful maths of chances to establish the turn 1 kill this deck can kill... (VERY hard but possible) Well, then we can talk but until then your numbers don't seem established very scientific and thus the argument does not hold up to choose Salvagers over other Oath builds. Not to mention things like FoW you're not considering when going off, or perhaps a turn 1 Sphere of Resistance which are bound to happen nowadays.

To continue:

giving it a lame turn 3 win that only fcg would be proud of.

Would you say the same in an argument about the difference in TPS and MeanDeck SX? "Just because it can kill faster, it's better" ? Really, Oath with creatures doesn't have that in mind.

You mulligan without fear because your balls are cast in the iron of having a combo deck.

Really, you make it seem as if combo is the best deck around as where it certainly isn't.

And when you get down to 4 cards and they read forbidden orchard, mox, oath, oath you cry tears of joy because you're running the oath engine like it should be run.

And tears of agony if those 4 cards are something else which is more likely than that hand. I don't really have the time now to get the exact chance of such a thing happening but it's not quite likely, that's for sure.

Okay so those numbers don't tell the tale of the sad oath deck that runs a combo much weaker then salvagers. But those decks...they have only oath to count on...so why would you run that exactly?

Oh yes, so true. Both decks run 60 cards but Oath with creatures only has things like creatures, Oath, Moxen and Orchards. It doesn't run an almost infinite amount of Counterspells, doesn't have any draw at all and doesn't have a stable manabase either. As where Salvagers is stuffed with infinite broken bombs.[/sarcasm]

Correct me if I'm wrong but the arguments in those posts.. Are either not true or should be articulated better.

[warble]

hi dude,

  With regards to your comment that combo is not the best deck around.  Well, there, we'll agree to disagree.  I play Control Slaver, my friend plays Combo.  If I had to pick one to play round 1 with I would choose Combo.  If I had to pick one to play round 2 and 3 with, I choose Control Slaver.  However, if I look at the decks and say, "which is better" I actually choose Combo in this matchup because we tune together and he can very consistently mull to hands that will beat CS.  This is partially a result of him knowing CS, partially because I tuned my CS sideboard against mirror and blue a little too heavily, but mainly because Combo has some of the best pilots and additionally runs 5 broken cards CS doesn't.

  With regards to your heavy disrespect to the numbers, I have altered my post to reflect your concerns.  I would appreciate the "100% in the vault sealed proven numbers" just as much as you, but as I don't have a team, I can give you the closest thing I have which is numbers when I play against my girlfriend and how we do then.  You're *sniff* making me all sad as I recollect the days back in '96 when I had a team and I was still going to high school.  But *heavy sigh* you know it's not like that for me anymore and it won't ever be...  Okay, so I do round because it's me and my girlfriend and we also aren't always very coherent when we play.

  On to the main topic:  Auriok Salvagers still isn't a main topic of discussion on this post, so I am trying to put it out there because the person who started this post was unaware of the main (and proven to be powerful) build of oath.  I've tried very hard to make the people who read this thread aware of that build and it's advantages, because I don't believe anyone should sell themselves short when playing oath in a tournament.  Oath with Salvagers has many advantages, but also some shortcomings that you will only see when you look at the numbers.  The main advantage is that when you draw the creatures you had that were useless in Oath, you are drawing a castable win condition in Salvagers.  The advantage you gain with more mainstream Oath builds is that you run waste+strip.  Thus, you are losing a little "edge" especially in the mirror.  If we were discussing that on this thread, I would be more then happy.  Especially since I'm considering switching to Oath Salvagers from CS.

[Vegeta2711]

Mainly: which other creatures do you mean? And an analysis of the difference such as Platinum Angel over Exalted Angel or visa versa for example. Such things.

Spirit of the Night and Akroma and swing until opponent is dead. They really are only used because they have 6 power, are hasty and have evasion. Not much else to say on them.

Ancient Hydra is a viable option, because when he is oathed into play you can use him to shoot things like Goblin Welder and other small weenie creatures. He's also a 5/1, which means you can use him a few times to clear the board, then attack next turn with a hasted creature and still deal 11. Alternatively you can use him for direct damage (up to 5 points worth) die and then shuffle him back in if you want to bring him back.

Triskellion is another valid choice and much of what has been said about Ancient Hydra applies here too. The main differences being, Trike shoots for free, but is only a 4/4 (And he gets smaller every shot), is an artifact and only carries 3 potential pings. Hence why Hydra usually gets the nod over him.

Platinum Angel is commonly used in combo matches (Brought in from the board) thanks to the 'I can't lose, neener neener' ability. Though signifcant smaller than Akroma, Spirit or Hyrda the ability she has combined with counters is a very good way to stall combo out until you can win. She's so-so against Welder decks, so it's typical for her to only be boarded in.

Pristine Angel is the common mirror match 'tech', since you run an assload of instants, which means she can easily become unblockable and untap to block the opponents creatures. She's typically a little too slow and high-maintence outside of the Oath mirror, but I have seen her successfully used in matches like Tog and GAT which only have 1-2 threats to attack you with. Usually comes in from the board for these specfic matches.

And that's really it for commonly seen creatures, I could do write-up's on DSC, Cognivore and stuff... but nobody really even plays them and they aren't that god compared to the other wins. So not much of a point to that.