4CTog

[Wildthing]

I have been testing tog for some time. I started one year ago with italian versions (UBr tog) and now I´m trying with green. I found that berserk is very important if you want to beat random decks which I think are tog´s worst matchups. Tog is my favorite deck without any doubt, it´s funny and broken at the same time.My lastest version is quite similar in main deck to the one that ended 6th in Chicago SCG tourney a year ago. The list is as it follows:

4CTOG:
// Mana:
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Volcanic Island
    1 Tropical Island
    1 Swamp
    3 Island
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby

// Creatures:
    3 Psychatog

// Draw and search:
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Gush
    2 Deep Analysis
    1 Demonic Tutor
    3 Intuition
    3 Cunning Wish
    4 Accumulated Knowledge
    4 Brainstorm

//Counter and disrupt:
    4 Duress
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mana Drain

//Broken
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Time Walk
   
//Metagame:  
    1 Engineered Explosives
 
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Coffin Purge (?? is needed?)
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Rack and Ruin
SB: 1 Berserk
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 Lava Dart
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 1 Stifle (comno)
SB: 1 Artifact Mutation/shatering pulse
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 [open slots] Maybe something against fish (worst opponent/combo

I have removed mind twist and library from the maindeck, Im sure its broken sometimes but most of the time its a useless card in hand. My first turn plan is duress so library is not my game plan. I run 4 duress to make the combo mathcup easier. Gush maindeck gives the speed needed sometimes to beat aggro, the other slots are quite regular in latest tog builds. Mana crypt has proved to be superior than sol ring, it gives you sped and enable first turn intuitions and second turn DA

Im playing the manabase with 1 tropical and 1 swamp. I found 1 tropical to be enough to kill with berserk but i don´t know if the lone swamp is needed and maybe the 4th underground sea give me more consistency casting mana drain

I would like to receive some information from players with experience with the deck as well as changes to optimize the deck and the sideboard or testing results

[Revvik]

A) Smmenen's articles on StarCity give fairly good ideas.

B) It's been a while since I played competitively with it, but here is my latest version:

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress
Mind Twist

3 Psychatog
1 Old Man of the Sea

Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
3 Cunning Wish

4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
3 Deep Analysis
Ancestral Recall

Time Walk
Yawgmoth's Will

5 Moxen
Black Lotus
Sol Ring

5 Fetchlands
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
Library of Alexandria

MAIN DIFFERENCES I CAN SEE:

Two Tropical Islands are important in this deck since you are concerned about killing with Berserk.  It is simply impossible to rely on the singleton.
Engineered Explosives does not do nearly enough.  It may kill a Welder or two, but killing Welders isn't a concern (I'll get to it further down the line).  The best form of removal you have available is Pernicious Deed, which is slow and still very vulnerable - use a Berserked 'Tog to remove troublesome opponents and their damn permanents (or a Cunning Wish ).  I will concede that if you're seeing a lot of Chalice of the Void, then Engineered Explosives is viable.
DEEP ANALYSIS: Definitely up it to 3.
Four Duress is pretty awful - the best compliment of control for a 'Tog list should look like this:

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
3 X

X is usually a mix of Duress and Mind Twist.  I used to see a lot of control / aggro-control, which warranted Mind Twist.  Against combo, you probably won't last long enough to play the Twist (barring a lot of acceleration on your first turn), so three of the Duress would probably suit you better.  Duress is usually played against control to force a bomb through (like Yawgmoth's Will), not played off the top.

The manabase I've provided is usually solid enough to support the sideboard strategies I run, although I'll be honest with you, Back to Basics could probably ice this deck.

Open Slot: Mine is Old Man of the Sea.  Doubles as a win condition, pitches to Force of Will, and randomly improves the terrible Fish / Tempo deck matchup, you can honestly run whatever.  I usually change this from tournament to tournament, but Old Man is the default for me.

My old board is irrelevant due to the restrictions, but I think it went like this:

4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
Firestorm
Gush / Fact or Fiction
2 Rack and Ruin
3 Ground Seal
Coffin Purge
Snuff Out / Ghastly Demise
Berserk

As for what I said about not being concerned about killing 'Welders:
Post-board against decks like Control Slaver sees me bringing in 3 Red Blasts + Pyroblast, and 3 Ground Seal.  This allows me to make Goblin Welder pretty ineffective, other than as a 1/1 creature with a "neato" ability.

I.E.: Red Blast keeps Thirsts (and the possible Intuitions) at bay, while you set up to stick Ground Seal.  This buys enough time for a win before they start hardcasting Mindslavers on you.

This strategy has worked fairly well for me, but like I said, it's irrelevant now that Trinisphere is gone.

Draw Spell in the Sideboard: These are a necessity.  Other than what I've posted, Skeletal Scrying is another great addition, since 'Tog's job is to fill the graveyard, and Wishing for a Scrying after Draining something even moderately costed can double 'Tog's power / toughness.  I've been going back and forth with Fact or Fiction and Gush since (this seems pretty stupid) I have a foil Fact signed in gold ink and a foil Japanese Gush, and I just can't decide!

[Godot]

but i don´t know if the lone swamp is needed

Its not and should become an Underground Sea.

Mana crypt has proved to be superior than sol ring, it gives you sped and enable first turn intuitions and second turn DA

I think Mana Crypt is really a liability right now.  The metagame has changed such that Tog no longer just goes apeshit and combos out with the frequency it once did and so the speed/damage trade off you make using Crypt is no longer favorable.

Two Tropical Islands are important in this deck since you are concerned about killing with Berserk

There are 2 issues with this statement.  First 2 Trops are most definitely not necessary if you run 5 fetchlands.  Secondly, you are not "concerned about killing with Berserk."  Berserk is there because it will win you games you would otherwise lose.  Its basically the ultimate 'OH SHIT' button.  You only use it in certain matchups and situations.  The huge majority of the time Berserk will be wholly unnecessary to win.  Its just a matter of recognizing the situations when you'll need it and prepare for it.

That said, if you intend to run multiple green spells in the SB then 2 Trops becomes better.  Given your current config with only 2 green spells 1 Trop is sufficient.

Four Duress is pretty awful

After reading this statement I can only assume that you are "pretty awful".  Four Duress is absolutely amazing.  Duressing ASAP is key.  Its versatility is what really makes the card shine.  Depending on your role in the matchup it can help you force through your own bombs or it can control your opponents draw spells/ability to protect its threats.  The information you gain also lets you enact the most effective gameplan from your side of the table.

Look at the metagame, its great against Oath, CS, 3cc, random control and all forms of combo.  Its at its weakest against stax and aggro so if your meta is full of those you can reduce the number, but otherwise going below 4 is pure folly in my opinion.

Another reason 4 Duress is great is that you dont have to unnessarily overload your sideboard with shit like 5 REBs to combat slaver.  You will  not only strengthen your game 1 against those decks, but you also free up SB space for other matchups.

DEEP ANALYSIS: Definitely up it to 3.

DA is good, and I can see playing 3 in some cases, but 2 is more than sufficient.  If you have an extra slot then play a 3rd, but its definitely not a given to play 3.  If you play 2 just Intuition for DA, DA and Duress.  99% of the time you'll still draw 6 cards and as an added bonus you reduce the probability of drawing a midgame Duress.

Engineered Explosives does not do nearly enough.

It takes out Oaths, Welders, Xantid Swarms, CotVs, Chains of Meph., Spheres of Resitence(note that EE still only costs 2 mana), token creatures, and all kinds of random other crap.  This is currently one of my favorite cards in the deck and does so many randomly awesome things its not funny.

As for a good build check out Ton vd Logts list here

For the past several weeks thats exactly what my maindeck has looked like except for -1 Flooded Strand +1 Tropical Island

[Moxlotus]

In an envrionment of Oath, TPS, and CS-you should have 4 REBs and a Pyroblast.  That will give you 7 effective blasts post board (+3 REB, Pyro and the 3 wishes).

[Wildthing]

In an envrionment of Oath, TPS, and CS-you should have 4 REBs and a Pyroblast. That will give you 7 effective blasts post board (+3 REB, Pyro and the 3 wishes).

I think that a configuration of 4 duress + 3 ReB in side is enough, maybe 4 in side but 5 is too much and weakens my matchups again stax, non TPS combo, cerebral assasin and random decks.

4 Duress configurations and library have not much sinergy so i won´t be playing library and gush is only good as a win more card. Consequently, i have 1 slot not decided could be mind twist/mystical tutor/ even skeletal scrying or the 3rd DA. Sometimes i feel i need more draw in the middle/late game game. I would like to heard suggestions about this.

I must confess I am a bit worry against first round decks like r/g beats, slight or fish but at the same time I want to be prepared for the tier1 so I can´t play tinker maindeck for example, this is the reason why I am playing with 3 togs

My last sideboard look like:
 Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives (I feel very safe playing 2 against oath)
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Rack and Ruin (Since trinisphere restrinction 2 are not longer needed)
SB: 1 Berserk
SB: 1 Fact or Fiction
SB: 1 Rushing River
SB: 1 Stifle (It is very good against combo)
SB: 1 Artifact Mutation
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Firestorm
SB: 2 Ground Seal (a lot of CS/Dragon and CA in my area)
SB: 1 Lava Dart
SB: 1 Annul/Arcane lab/Red Elemental blast (not really sure)

[Revvik]

In an envrionment of Oath, TPS, and CS-you should have 4 REBs and a Pyroblast.  That will give you 7 effective blasts post board (+3 REB, Pyro and the 3 wishes).

My list is slightly out of date since it's been over a month since it has been in sleeves, but this is a good summarization of my point.

Godot, 4 Duress is not the way to go if using my stated sideboard plan.  Duress is beaten by Brainstorm, can whiff, or help them by dropping a Mindslaver, thus fucking up the entire "negate Goblin Welder" strategy.  And as far as combo goes, Red Blast is much better than Duress at giving you double-counter hands, since you can then leave mana up to resolve earlier draw spells (Brainstorm / Ancestral).

I don't use Duress as an early disruption card a majority of the time.  I use it to clear the way for Yawgmoth's Will or any other bomb (AK for 3/4, Mind Twist, Deep Analysis when Mana Drain mana is up).

On the issue of two Tropicals: Berserk makes for faster kills, enough said.  Often, if a game is down to "well, I can Wish for the Berserk now and kill him now, or just use regular damage and wait and save Berserk as an 'oh shit button'," then I will always try for the Berserk.  And if the 'Tog gets Swordsed or Edicted, the Berserk can always be removed and Wished for again - and you'll have a second green source in case your current one gets Wasted.

Wildthing: Stax isn't too problematic - survive until you have two blue up before they have a solid lock.  Their artifacts are strong Drain targets, even if an active Welder is present.  I'm not going to say it's a walk in the park, because it is by no means so - it will take skill, and a few Rack and Ruins / Artifact Mutations in the board.

4 Duress configurations and library have not much sinergy so i won´t be playing library and gush is only good as a win more card. Consequently, i have 1 slot not decided could be mind twist/mystical tutor/ even skeletal scrying or the 3rd DA. Sometimes i feel i need more draw in the middle/late game game. I would like to heard suggestions about this.

This supports my point.  Those extra Duresses could be draw spells.  And Library of Alexandria is almost an auto-include - you will face control decks and this card will win you games.

[Godot]

Godot, 4 Duress is not the way to go if using my stated sideboard plan. Duress is beaten by Brainstorm, can whiff, or help them by dropping a Mindslaver...And as far as combo goes, Red Blast is much better than Duress at giving you double-counter hands, since you can then leave mana up to resolve earlier draw spells (Brainstorm / Ancestral).

I didnt want to address your sideboard plan since it was for an old metagame, but thats part of the problem.  I think your sideboard plan is flawed.  Against slaver for instance you SB in 7 cards.  7!?!  Tog is at its heart a sideboard deck and using this plan weakens your sideboard and the deck as a whole.  Only running 2 Duress makes it necessary that you run some absurd number of REBs in the board in order to compete against common control matchups.  If you're filling up your board with unnecessary REBs then you're weakening the deck.  Thats at least 2 SB slots that could be devoted to something more useful, Old Men for instance.  Furthermore, if you're bringing in that many cards you're undoubtedly taking out cards that are part of Togs basic gameplan (especially if, as you implied at the beginning of your post, you're leaving in 3 Wishes).  And to even further belabor this point, REB doesnt hit Skeletal Scrying.

I'll say it again, 4 Duress is house.  Tog does not play the beatdown role as much as it once did.  By running 4 Duress you get (a) early disruption, (b) the ability to force through bombs, (c) you have a much stronger game 1 against combo and cs and (d) you dont have to warp your sideboard to take on certain matchups.

As for your other points:
(i) they Brainstorm:  First off you have forced them to react to you which always good.  Secondly, even if they hide something, they still had to draw 3 more cards so you'll likely still hit a draw spell or reduce their ability to protect said bomb.

(ii) you whiff:  Ok, so I whiffed.  Big deal, it means they're not holding anything so the bomb im probably attempting to resolve will.  Yes, I spent 1 card and 1 mana for information, but Im probably winning at the point so its a minimal loss.

(iii) you hit a slaver:  In the massive number of games I've played against  the various forms of Slaver I have never once Duressed away a Slaver.  And hell, if they havent resolved  a Welder its not a weak play.

(iv) combo:  This is just laughable.  REB better than Duress?  Please.  Duress hits ALL their bombs.  REB doesnt do shit against Wheel, Wishes, Desire, Skeletal Scrying, Necro, Bargain, Ritual, I think you get my point.  But its better with double counter hands you say?  Ok, so its only good when they are:  (a) defending a spell with FoW or (b) attempting to resolve two bombs in one turn, one of which must be blue.  But what is they protect with Duress and take your normal counter?  Then what?  THEN WHAT?  Additionally if that REB had been a Duress you would have been able to deal with their bomb in the same way.  Duress deals with not only their bombs but it hits mana sources too which can be even stronger.  But again you say, if I run REB I can resolve my draw sooner!  That doesnt matter.  They are the beatdown.  Your first priority is answering thier bombs.  If you can do that you will have the time to draw cards.  Given this point and that Duress answers their threats just a efficiently and more comprehensively, Duress is far an away the better card against combo.

And Library of Alexandria is almost an auto-include

sLoA is absolute garbage and I cut this immediately after SCG Chicago.  Getting UU as soon as possible is waaaaaaaaaaay more important than drawing an extra card.  Additionally if you're drawing cards off this after getting it down in the mid or late game you're winning anyway.  In the early game it impedes your ability to get UU which costs you tempo and the card advantage from sLoA will not make up for that loss of tempo.  We've tested a lot of control mirrors and found that the deck that gets a turn 1 sLoA often loses since it cant drain as soon.  Nevermind the previously noted negergy with 4 Duress.

1 slot not decided could be mind twist/mystical tutor/ even skeletal scrying or the 3rd DA

I currently use Mystical but that slot is always up in the air.  I dont particularly like Mystical, but in the early game it allows the deck to utilize Ancestral more(a typically under-utilized resource in this deck) and in the late game it either gets you Will or Time Walk.  Mind Twist could be randomly good, but more draw is probably better.  Overall, as much as I dont like it, Mystical functions both as draw and gets Will so I run it, but its always the first card I consider taking out.

Also, 3 REBs in your sideboard is more than sufficient.  I'd also look at Vamp Tutor in the side too if you have the space.

EDIT: fixed so Im not talking like a valley girl

[Revvik]

Duress does NOTHING against a top-deck anything.  Timetwister, Tinker, etc.  Most of this was already discussed in the previous two 'Tog threads, so rather than copy/paste/repeat myself I'll just let it drop (especially since a new sideboard plan should be thought up - mine was around when almost everyone was playing Slaver - 3 Duress (no twist at the time) and the blasts did a lot of good, especially before Skeletal Scrying was popularized).

Although I do feel it is important to add that I would never play a Psychatog deck without Library of Alexandria.  It is too powerful of an early play - more so than Drain, otherwise Drain would be on the list of restricted cards.

An unanswered Library will win you the game*.  Answering the Library costs your opponent a land drop, and generally an entire turn, which matters little since the Library will often replace itself.

Mystical Tutor is randomly good, and pitches to Force of Will.  I use a third Deep Analysis instead, or a maindeck Gush.  Skeletal Scrying I tend to stick in the sideboard, but I've enjoyed its maindeck presence.

I'd also look at Vamp Tutor in the side too if you have the space.

Cunning Wish is one of the main powerhouses of the deck, so its synergies must be fully utilized.  Cunning Wish --> Vampiric Tutor is one way, another is using it as Regrowth with Psychatog, and keeping a counterspell (usually Red Blast is enough) is another way.  A sideboarded draw spell is also a plus (these are all elementary points of the deck, but might as well be stated).

* = I'm not saying people will scoop to first turn LoA.  I'm saying look closely at your games and look what's helping you dig into your answers.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Duress does NOTHING against a top-deck anything. Timetwister, Tinker, etc. Most of this was already discussed in the previous two 'Tog threads, so rather than copy/paste/repeat myself I'll just let it drop (especially since a new sideboard plan should be thought up - mine was around when almost everyone was playing Slaver - 3 Duress (no twist at the time) and the blasts did a lot of good, especially before Skeletal Scrying was popularized).

You're right, duress doesn't stop the top deck, but it weakens the opponent's ability to protect the top deck. Duress is a pro-active counter and forces your opponent into awkward situations. If you duress and see nothing, you've already won.

An unanswered Library will win you the game*. Answering the Library costs your opponent a land drop, and generally an entire turn, which matters little since the Library will often replace itself.

I have mixed feeling about LoA. I know how good it is, but I've seen way too many games where a first turn LoA still didn't win the game. Sure, you get to draw 1 more card, but it will take till atleast turn 2 to get UU up (assuming you draw lotus, walk, or sapphire), and more likely turn 3. A 3 turn window for your opponent to do shit is a bad thing (most decks will likely have 2-3 threats you need to answer before turn 3). In this case, the only card that can deal is FoW. Even if you FoW once or twice, you get out of LoA range, and now, it becomes a nonbasic that only produces a colorless. Missing land drops for LoA is not an option, as early in the game it's a HUGE tempo loss. As for late game, Tog has inevitability. Once you've reached the late game, there's no need for LoA.

-Bob

[Revvik]

As for late game, Tog has inevitability.

Now here's something I've always wondered about - the role of Psychatog / Hulk Smash decks in different matchups.  For instance, in Control Slaver, would it really play control, since it technically wins faster (disrupt Welder activations, kill before hardcast Mindslaver)?  

My 5-blast plan facilitated the control role - side in the blasts, go up to 20 maindecked counterspells, and let the graveyard grow until I could drop a lethal 'Tog.  It usually worked out fine, but as often as I won like that, I was either winning by going crazy or flat out losing.

I don't think 'Tog has inevitability, considering that the deck can only do so much damage, and can run out of resources pretty fast.  Even if it does, Slavery decks have better inevitability, giving them a much stronger late game.

I'm also trying to think of how well a version of 'Tog could do in Chicago next week.  Maybe I'll just go UBg again and completely scrub out like last time    although a stronger manabase and Back to Basics could get pretty strong again.