Resurgance of Nonbasics...a ripe time to bring back Mono Blue?

[Zeke]

Perhaps you could post your list here, and we could work on finding room for the much needed B2B.

[Kowal]

Ask and ye shall receive.

Monoblue Revisited, Mar 05
Ben Kowal

4 Ophidian
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Powder Keg

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection

4 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
10 Island

[Zeke]

how useful were the Misdirections in the list?  -2 Misdirection -1 Impulse gives us +3 Back to Basics.

Did you ever find yourself missing Wasteland?

[Machinus]

Kowal has 25 mana sources already, so he can't add lands. He can't take islands out since he only has 16 and is trying to maximize the use of shackles.

Are they working out better than creatures?

[Kowal]

In testing the Shackles were amazing.  The high island count let me steal things like Sundering Titan with startling regularity.

I never miss Wasteland.  It's only really good when it hits something key, like Academy, Library, or Bazaar.

Misdirection is about as useful here as it is in Oath.  It's very effective in the early game to make your junk resolve, but it's not essential.

[Zeke]

In all the time I've been testing the deck, 12 counters + chalice always seemed to be a sufficient counter base.  I never really miked Misdirection, personally, though while it is a great card, it can't do as much as it used to be able to.

I'd say it would make the cut if it could change the target or abilities (like mindslaver).

So -2 MisD -1 Impulse, +3 B2B?

[Luiggi]

Another alternative to removing the Misdirections from the deck is cutting the 2 Powder Kegs. The main problem with this would be that it weakens our Thirst For Knowledges a little, just by having less artifacts to discard, but the question is if we really need them in the deck, given the other artifacts we now have.

Having Vedalken Shackles means we can steal annoying little creatures our opponent plays like Grim Lavamancers, Meddling Mages, Goblin Welders, etc. without too much trouble, and as Kowal pointed out we can sometimes even steal Sundering Titans! Additionally our 4 Chalices can also help lock our opponents out of their Moxes and such, making the Kegs not as essential as they once were. Sure the Kegs are good at killing whatever Orchard tokens an Oath opponent might give us, but even then we're trading 1 Keg for 1 token, so it's not an effective solution. Shackles lets us just steal their Akroma and beat with her instead or worrying, .

I would propose dropping 2 Kegs and either 1 Impulse or 1 MisD for 3 Back to Basics. Am I right in suggesting that the Kegs be cut, or am I way off base?

Luiggi

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

oath is the new mono u.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Shackles seems like a great idea. Usually against Oath Mono Blue used to take it to the late game and then finally lose to Oath because Mono Blue needed Ophidian to suffice as a draw engine. Shackles definetly would help this matchup because it would turn into another must counter for Oath.

Plus who doesn't like taking a Platinum Angel?

[onelovemachine]

Kowal wrote:

whereas Impulse does nothing but act as a bad brainstorm.

What is your opinion of brainstorm over both impulse and thirst?  I have always found the ability to optimize my hand with brainstorm to be far more useful than either of those in mono-u.  I also played 5 fetch to complement that though. 

[Dante]

Kowal wrote:

whereas Impulse does nothing but act as a bad brainstorm.

What is your opinion of brainstorm over both impulse and thirst?  I have always found the ability to optimize my hand with brainstorm to be far more useful than either of those in mono-u.  I also played 5 fetch to complement that though. 

your primary Chalice setting will be X=1, so Brainstorm isn't so hot then.

Bill

[Mixing Mike]

Well,pretty much what Dante said and the fact that Brainstorm won't give you card advantage ever where-as Thirst does.  Don't forget you're trading one-for-one with your counterspells, so the more ways to draw cards the get ahead of them in terms of counters is key.  The reason why he's not running Ophidians anymore is because they're far too slow.  Sensei effectively can't lose once they resolve Future Sight on turns 2-3, SSB wins by turn 4, and combo decks win before Ophidian draws you any cards.  Aggro decks turn off your draw engine, and other control decks will outdraw you or just counter it.

Now for the same mana investment as an Ophidian, you'll (usually) get +2 card advantage at Instant speed.  That's just a whole lot better.

[Kowal]

I actually run both.  The only real problem I have ophidian is that it's a liability against Oath, but that I can handle.

[Zeke]

Back to Basics is such a good card, though.  There has to be some room to fit it into the deck.  After playing a bit I don't exactly want to remove MisD, but possibly cut it to 1?  We could cut 1 MisD, 1 impulse, and we only have to find room for 1 more card to put (unless, we run 61 cards).

[Luiggi]

Kowal: in the Oath matchup how do you deal with a quick fatty, if they can get their Oath to resolve? Shackles is good, but unless you can survive long enough to get those 5 or 6 Islands into play they're not so hot. What's your plan in that matchup?

Luiggi

[Mixing Mike]

I actually run both (Ophidian and Thirst).

Well, I think it's more of an obligation to run Phids since you don't have room to run anything better that would be helkp you with your 1-for-1 trading.  I think it's obvious that TFK is better is more than one way.

[Dralock]

Kowal: in the Oath matchup how do you deal with a quick fatty, if they can get their Oath to resolve? Shackles is good, but unless you can survive long enough to get those 5 or 6 Islands into play they're not so hot. What's your plan in that matchup?

Luiggi

Control Magic, aether vial.

The thing about B2B is that you can run it using basics as well.  I can see it being added to trinket-salvagers to lock the opponent down while beating the tar out of them with trinket mages and waiting for your combo. 

Also, has anyone considered ninjas instead of phids for this slot?  Sure you don't get the ninjutsu, but for one more CC you get to beat AND draw.  On the other hand, you don't die to other people's ninjas as well, so if people stick to an ophidian build, you could just be staring at people for a while.

[Luiggi]

I guess that works, post-SB. So you basically concede Game 1 if they resolve an Oath?

Luiggi

[Dralock]

I guess that works, post-SB. So you basically concede Game 1 if they resolve an Oath?

Luiggi

You could always put them in MD if you are going to go up againsed a lot of oath.  Considering its all you have to counter, them getting it on the table will be rather difficult, and since their orchards are a one-shot deal after B2B is resolved, it could be even stickier.

[Kowal]

It's a lot tougher to resolve the oath than one would imagine, but yes, it's definitely a bad matchup in game one, and no, it doesn't get much better in game two.

[Engine_number_9]

I was wondering when is the optimal time to cast ophie. It seems to me that the sorcery speed is a huge downside in the control mirror. Do you take the chance of not having open mana on your opponents turn or do cast it later making it a slower draw-effect? Any ways it seems inferior to other drawspells like skeletal scrying and tfk.

Edit: had TFK changed to JFK by the spell check

[Zeke]

Whenever I cast ophie it always seems to be off a mana drain, so i rarely have to pay more than U for it.

[xrobx]

Ninjas don't belong in this deck for many reasons.  One, is that they cost too much mana.  Two, is that they don't have any creatures to 'ninjitsu' off, which is why they are good in the first place (not casting a spell, hence, slide under brainstorm).  Three, is that they are simply better in fish based decks which pack a shitload more synergy with them than this style of deck ever will.

Now, I know everyone here loves shackles, but I bring about a different idea; seasinger/old man.

They've been around forever, and I'm sure everyone knows what they do so I won't go into detail why they are good.  The reason I suggest this is that null rod is HUGE nowadays, and including both null rod and b2b seems devastating.  This would fuck things up for artifact mana sources, but in most cases, it will hurt the opponent more than it will hurt you.  It's more of a meta call I guess.  This would obviously bring about the exclusion of shackles, and the inclusion of rods, chalices, and old men maindeck.  I'd still take ophidians as a draw engine, as the old man clears the way for the snake to draw cards.  Just an idea...

[Zeke]

The only decks packing Null Rod are fish decks, and those may have been regaining popularity, but not enough to warrent the removal of shackles.  Every other deck in the format relies too much on either artifacts to win, or the mana accel from Moxen to use Null Rod.  I don't think we have to worry about that.

And I also don't think anone here suggested Ninja of the Deep Hours for the deck.  If anything, I'd run Theiving Magpie over the Ninja.