New Thoughts on Cranial Extraction

[Draven]

I know this was talked about along time ago when Champions was first released, but I wanted to bring it up again and see what people think now. I have run the card a few times as a board card against combo. Usually, if it resolved, it meant you won the game. Watch TPS win with out it's Tendrils or CS win without it's Welders, Tog with out the Tog... You get the point.

Why isn't this card played more? Is it the 4cc Sorcery? I don't know if I buy that excuse and here is why. Look at the following sorcery cards that are played and may or may not win as much as a resolved CE:

Yawgmoth's Will 3cc (yeah, it'll win most games)
Tinker 3cc
Most Draw 7's 3cc
Deep Analysis 4cc (not usually cast at 4cc, I know, but it is at times.)
Tendrils 4cc

With Mana Drains and artifact acceleration, I don't believe the 4cc Sorcery is that horrible for an I win situation. Granted, against some decks like Stupid Tarter Sauce Covered Fish and Food Chain, the CE isn't as hot, but those decks are played far less than the I lose to a resolved CE.deck.

I am by no means thinking my logic is flawless either. If I did, I would just play it and not asked the Mana Drain community, however, it is not played and therefore there must be a reason why. So I pose this question to you fellow ManaDrainers, why isn't Cranial Extraction played???

[warble]

Why isn't this card played more? Is it the 4cc Sorcery?

With Mana Drains and artifact acceleration, I don't believe the 4cc Sorcery is that horrible for an I win situation.

Actually, and this is unfortunately metagame evolution, 4cc Sorcery really IS horrible.  It's the whole sorcery mana feeds Mana Drain almost as effectively as artifact mana does, but artifact mana is usually backed up by Sphere of Resistance, Trinisphere, etc.  When you're playing black and you're thinking sorcery you should be thinking Tendrils, Yawgmoth's Will, Demonic Tutor.

What Cranial Extraction adds to the sideboard is one thing, but even then effective cards can be found that have lower CC's (Chalice of the Void) and in many circumstances Jester's Cap will actually be more effective at removing win conditions (with welder for example).

To respond to "can CS win without Welders" I believe you've just run into the problem of Cranial Extraction...because the answer is an irrefutable YES.  And damn them for ever printing a card that helps people to win but isn't actually necessary for that win.

If we knew there was some way to force Cranial Extraction, would we play it then?  This is a much better question, because nobody has tried Boseiju + Cranial Extraction yet.  So I'll pose this question:

Why don't we play Boseiju + Cranial Extraction?  Can this be "more" effective then Gifts at winning?

[Komatteru]

Well, to be honest, I think you're incorrect in saying that the following "sorceries don't win games as much as a resolved Extraction":
Tinker
Tendrils
Draw 7's: Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister, Memory Jar, and Tinker itself

Tinker hands down wins games damn near as often as Will, so let's throw that out the window.  When Tendrils is cast, the game is over as well (nonlethal Tendrils is rather uncommon, and is usually followed within the next turn or two by another Tendrils to finish the job), so that's out.  When used as a Draw 7, Tinker and the draw 7 itself Jar usually are followed by either a win or such a huge advantage that the opponent cannot recover.  Tinker/Jar is my favorite draw7 in combo since it rarely backfires, and when it does (i.e., I don't win), my opponent doesn't get to keep the cards I just gave him, which is the biggest pitfall when playing a Draw 7.  The other Draw 7's have a tendency to backfire every now and then, but this happens very infrequently when they are played correctly (and most people do not know how to time a draw7 properly, and it makes such a huge difference).

The decks you mention can be hosed by a resolved CE, but only a couple actually scoop to it.  You are correct in saying that once Tog is extracted for Tog, the game is done, but CS can win without its Welders.  It's not easy, but it can happen.  Against combo, Extraction is not that hot against Long, since it still leaves the maindeck Tendrils, all the tutors to get it, and Burning Wish.  Against Workshop decks, what do you extract?  There's about 4 or 5 cards that seem like good candidates, but the truth of the matter is that a Shop deck can win and usually does win without seeing one of them the entire game anyway.   The real issue is against most decks, the cards you want to extract are cheap and likely to hit the table before you even fire up the mana to cast Extraction.  Welder costs 1, Oath costs 2, etc.  In addition, you have to resolve the Extraction, which is very difficult to do when you have to pay 4 mana for it.  Surely, Mana Drain will be online by then, and your opponent will have played several draw spells and/or Brainstorms to find countermagic by the time you can fire it off.  In general, you're just better playing with something that wins you the game for sure against everything, unlike Extraction which is not the most effective against every deck, than you are with playing Extraction.

[Draven]

Why don't we play Boseiju + Cranial Extraction?  Can this be "more" effective then Gifts at winning?

The problem with Boseiju is it is a non-basic comes into play tapped "I suck it to Wastelands" land. If it didn't come into play tapped, it would be the hottest thing since Britney Spears, however I just don't think it is reliable enough.

[crazynlazy]

that would be awesome if cranial got played because then deathlong would be more resilient than TPS and would be faster. But no, I don't think that cranial has that much potential in t1. Maybe in the SB because you are right that CE will hose some decks namely belcher, TPS, and is pretty good against tog. You could try it as a SB card but I'm not sure which deck it would be good in.

[ump]

I once considered a variation of TPS that focused on resolving Cranial Extraction.  The problem is that Cranial Extraction tries to prevent you from losing while other cards try to help you win.  Cranial Extraction isn't even absolute as there are always secondary conditions.  Many times, I found myself out of gas to win only to die to a something stupid like a 1/1.  I think it is better off trying to win rather than trying not to lose.

[Thug]

Cranial Extraction, if it ever gets popular, it is dodged way too easy.

Tog can play a single Sarcatog
TPS can play Burning Wish/Cunning Wish

other deck already have built in answers to Extraction.

---

Actually in the last tournament I played TPS and won after my opponent resolved a Cranial Extraction.
But if I even would have been hurt by it I could already have Duressed it away twice.

This shows the three main weaknesses of the card:

- It's slow
- It doesn't win a game
- It is dodged too easy

Koen

[Disburden]

A friend of mine was trying to build a solid deck that won with running multiple extractions and just taking your opponents deck apart. It sucked balls.

There's many of reasons why this card is just plan bad as a win condition, and even possibly a disabler to your opponent:

 1) It's a ton of mana to cast. Even if you get a great opening hand with moxes and whatever else, it can still be duressed if your on the draw, or countered with force of will, etc. Now I'm not dishing out the, "Well, you can be forced!" thing, we all know thats a cop out. What I'm saying is when your trying to cast such an expensive SLOW card to damage your opponents pile you don't want to see force of will.

2) It doesn't win anything on it's own. It's simply not a win condition in anyway. Most decks that run this thing only use it as a crippler and then find a win condition that isn't even related. If Extractions is your win condition I can just wait for a judge to call time, that's if it resolves and you were able to cripple me enough to not be able to win, etc.

I Think this card is fun to use and I wish it had some more sparks to it to make it worth while, but to me I'd just not run it than try to build a deck around it and get hosed time after time.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Well from a Workshop decks perspective Jester's Cap is 1,000x better. Some decks have them in the sideboard but even Jester's Cap which can be sneaked in turn one in a Workshop deck isn't even that common.

[Draven]

2) It doesn't win anything on it's own. It's simply not a win condition in anyway. Most decks that run this thing only use it as a crippler and then find a win condition that isn't even related.

First of all, if your opponant's deck is crippled enough, you could use a Lanawar Elf beat down to win. I am not suggesting it, however in Vintage where at least half the decks run only a couple win conditions, they would all be severly crippled by even a single resolved CE.

I do understand the CC/Sorcery thing. Don't know what to say. I guess I have been convinced about the card's inferiority. (did I just make up a word???) Thanks to all who posted and gave good input.

On a second side note to the Moderators, why did this get moved to Newbie? I feel this is a good discussion and is definaly not a newbie subject, nor was the coversation degressing to a point where it was no longer productive. Just curious...

[Khahan]

I've tinkered with extraction and have had good results actually. Of course I did not try to add it to an existing deck, but rather built a B/U deck.  I posted the deck list here and most of the responses I were given were the same as you received.
However, those negatives are not cut and dry with Extraction.

1) It costs too much:  Easy answer - it goes in a control deck. They are typically slow to begin with and you can build into it.

2)It doesn't win the game:  To be honest, I found that going after the win condition with CE was a bad idea. However, hitting mana drain or FoW worked wonders against most control decks. Against combo it is a house. Ok, so they have a burning wish?  You've got your own counter magic and now you've got less business spells that its needed against. Even if they are going to play it out and go for the draw, you can now focus completely on winning against a lot of combo decks.

3)Its a sorcery speed and too slow:  Ok, you got me here. This card would be 100% better if it was instant speed and you could nail somebody at the end of their turn. 


The above comes from actual play testing.  Would I take my deck to Waterbury and expect to win?  Not yet. Maybe eventually, but it does need a good bit of work.
Would I take it to local T1 tourneys and >30 player tourneys and expect to win?  Yes.

Decks it doesn't go in:
Oath: Any build
Workshop
TPS (it does cost too much in this deck and is totally unnecessary)
Tinker/welder
Aggro
Aggro combo


Basically, as I mentioned before, it needs its own deck. It does fit into any current deck I can think of. But it is viable and if used smartly is very effective.

[Tash]

Eh. I like crainial exraction. Its a decent card for casual. But in a serious T-1 metagame this card reads "Mana Drain Me"

[warble]

Eh. I like crainial exraction. Its a decent card for casual. But in a serious T-1 metagame this card reads "Mana Drain Me"

So what is your answer to:

Why don't we play Boseiju + Cranial Extraction?  Can this be "more" effective then Gifts at winning?

We know that Cranial has to be played with control or it has to be uncounterable.  If we structured a deck around this, would it be possible to use cranial in the early game?  Can anybody tell me the advantage of having Cranial Extraction resolve over having Gifts Ungiven resolve?

Okay and I'm just being the devil's advocate for the record.  My friend has a foil Cranial Extraction and 3 regulars and I constantly tell him he needs to sell on ebay before their value plummets.  Cranial=T1Trash.

[Draven]

This is the situation with Boseiju + Cranial Extraction vs Boseiju + Gifts:

Boseiju + Gifts can wait until late(r) game and win. You can set it up and play your tapped Boseiju and be able to protect it (Duress, Timewalk, Stifle)

Boseiju + Cranial needs to be played very early to be a bomb. Ideally, you would want to play first turn Boseiju and a second turn Cranial. The problem is your first turn Boseiju is hit by their first turn Waste. Cranial just isn't good late game.

Would Duress work better than Boseiju to force through an early CE?

[Khahan]

Comparing Gifts to Cranial extraction is not really doable.  Sure they are both 4CC spells.
But they have completely different functionalities. Its like comparing a Mox Emerald to Urza's Bauble.

As for CE in late game, it can actually be more devastating late game than early game.
Yes, against some decks (oath, tendrils for example) if you resolve this turn 1-3, its game over.
But against a lot of other decks (CS, fish, MWS) casting this early simply acts as a disruption of sorts. It makes the deck more difficult to play, but your opponent can recover.
Playing it mid to late game is when it can be more crippling.

If you are playing mid to late game, your opponent has already burned through some threats. Some of their resources are already gone and used and you have the advantage of knowing which resources are missing.

Do they already have 2 welders on the board and 2 TFK in the gy? Then don't bother. Hit their counter base or one of their win conditions.   Or maybe its late game because they got a lot of early counters and stalled the game. 3 Fow are already gone and they've seen a mana drain already.  They are counter light and won't be able to protect themselves. Go for the welder.

Late game gives you the advantage of knowing the game state better.  In this respect, CE is a bad early game draw against some decks.

CE may not have quite the potential I'm giving it. But it certainly has more potential than most T1 players have given it.  But that is simply due to a misuse of the card and misreading its functionality. The basic most obvious level of play is: Get this cast early and remove 4 cards.
But that is not necessarily the best use.  When players realize that, maybe CE will get some decks.

Of course that brings up the biggest drawback. So many decks these days are game over on turn 1-3. Even if they don't win, they are set up to win. CE naming Oath of Druids when 1 Oath is already on the table is pointless.
It may work well as a splash card into a BBS deck (just a random thought).



......
Note: small edit to the 'they are both 4CC spells' from sorceries. Morganti's post about Gifts being an instant was correcting my brain fart. Thanks.

[Morganti]

Gifts is an instant, Cranial is a Sorcery
Cranial would be hawt, if jesters cap didn't exsist and do everything it did, + be weldable for reuseablity

i would consider CE to be a good sideboard card if your meta is slower than the overall picture, with lots of non high powered decks.

its also decent for legacy i think, but for high powered t1, cranial isn't good enough

~D~