Green/Black Beats

[AmbivalentDuck]

In my mind, R/G beatz fails to be tier a 1 deck because it isn't fast enough to race combo control, dies to Oath, and can't compete with other aggro.  Therefore, I'd like to try to open discussion on green/black beats.

To start discussion:

Mana:

4 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 ESG
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus

Disruption:

3 Null Rod
4 Root Maze
4 Withered Wretch (or Planar Void)
3 CoW
4 CotV (Mostly for 0 and 2, 2 almost solely against Oath)
3 Naturalize
1 Demonic Consultation (because we can)

Threats:
3 ???? (Maybe...just maybe Viridian Zealot, Hidden Herd is another strong option)
3 Flesh Reaver
2 CotH
4 River Boa

The deck is disruption heavy and highly proactive.  Root Maze, Null Rod, Planar Void, and Chalice can each SINGLY shut down several decks in the format.   Combined with a CoW/Waste lock to keep the opponenet from bouncing back, efficient creatures can steadily chip away at the opponents life. 

Card:                    Decks affected:
Root Maze             Oath, Dragon, anything storm based, Belcher, anything that uses fetches to fix its mana base.
Withered Wretch   Oath(/combo oath), Dragon, anything intending to cast Yawg Win, Welder based strategies,
Null Rod                Artifact mana sources...Belcher, Mindslaver...Most decks
CotV                    Everything if played intelligently

It's a start on a possible new archetype.  Criticism is most definitely welcomed.  I will note that some have argued that CoW and Planar Void don't combo well.  You have four dead cards (TOTAL) in your deck due to this interaction.  I don't think that's a problem.  I'd rather have high threat density and high threat diversity...

[crazedpenguinman]

Flesh reaver is bad, hyppie is good. Zealot is a strong choice, I think some sword of fire and ice would go well in here. Root maze seems a bit subpar

[ReAnimator]

I think this deck will end up looking a lot like chalice black (aka: mono black control) but just with a splash of green for artifact destruction. 
The problem with aggro control / budget control decks like this one are that they just straight up lose to raw card drawing, and there is no way they can keep up with the tier 1 blue decks no matter what, because even if you have all the tools to shut them down (chains of meph, chalice) it usually happens too late and Nights whispers isn't enough to keep up. 
 
Planar Void does absolutly nothing vs D4rgon and Drainslaver, so don't even bother. 
 
Cumbajj Witches could be a good sideboard/maindeck creature to run if you see lots of fish and Drain Slaver. 
 
Demonic Consult could be too risky if you are planing on strip locking your opp. Demonic and Vampiric are probably enough.

[Rancor1]

You're dead on. In addition:

Hippie is bad as well, it is way too slow. I'd still replace some of your threats, as they don't seem to do much other than attack (except for wretch, which I definitely like.) R/G has such threats as lavamancer and gorilla shaman, both more game-swinging than Flesh Reaver or Call.

The problem with your disruption is that any compotent player of any of the decks listed can play around these. You have no way to deal with a huge creature, so if the oath stays in play for one turn you lose. Oath tends to have plenty of counters, and many play with Cunning Wish for more answers. Same goes for Dragon; even with a Root Maze, they could just animate a V. Force. COW/Waste isn't as effective as it used to be, and Null Rod is even less effective. Most of the cards in your deck can defeat Belcher, that deck just wins too fast to have an impact.

I wonder why you did not include Duress/Therapy. The most useful thing that Flesh Reaver ever did in this format was get sacrificed to a therapy.

[Astro]

I agree with 100% with Rancor1.  This is quite random as I know the deck is but a rough draft, however I feel it would operate much better with CotV on the sb and main deck Duress.  Sinkhole has great synergy with Root Maze.  Flesh Reaver is just pain bad so are Hippies nowadays.  Wretch is a freakin house and I'm not sure splash green is all that much better than splashing Red.  With red you lose Root Maze but you get Gorilla Shaman and Grim Lavamancer.  I have more say but don't have the time so I'll continue later, heres a bit to chew on though. Mana base needs hella work.

4 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
4 ESG
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus

Disruption:
3x Null Rod
4x Root Maze
4x Sinkhole
2x CoW
4x Duress
4x Naturalize
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Necropotence

Beats:
4x Withered Wretch
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x River Boa

[AmbivalentDuck]

That's almost certainly the wrong direction to take the deck in.  Sinkhole requires investing a whole turn into setting your opponent back a turn...so in other words...it does essentially nothing.  Duress has the same problem...It works once. It's not a global threat, won't shut down archetypes (inconvenience them, yes), and isn't many-for one.  Conversely, a single Null Rod, CotV, Root Maze, or Withered Wretch will shut down many decks until they can remove it.  And Necropotence is not good in this format.  Combo decks kill through damage...Losing two life is equivalent to requiring one less storm to Tendrils.

We can't race or outcard the blue-based combo-control in the format.  We have to disrupt them.  Lavamancer just isn't good enough.  When will people get that through their heads.  If for no other reason: it has summoning sickness.  Gorilla Shaman is also yesterday's news.  U/r fish didn't even run them if I'm remember correctly.  Also note, U/r fish is now less than tier 1.

[jshields]

waaaaaay back in the day, I had a black/green aggro deck that did reasonably well.  I am not sure if you have all these cards, but the deck was designed primarily as a budget design


B/G Junk

~~~~~~~~Mana~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

~~~~Creatures~~~~~~
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Withered Wretch
2 Call of the Herd

~~~~Removal~~~~~~
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Mind Twist
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Diabolic Edict

~~~~~~Tools~~~~~~~~
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Regrowth


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Sideboard~~~~~~~
2 Woodripper
3 Ground Seal
3 Naturalize
2 Crucible
2 City of Solitude
3 Null Rod

[Freelancer]

That's almost certainly the wrong direction to take the deck in.  Sinkhole requires investing a whole turn into setting your opponent back a turn...so in other words...it does essentially nothing.  Duress has the same problem...It works once. It's not a global threat, won't shut down archetypes (inconvenience them, yes), and isn't many-for one.  Conversely, a single Null Rod, CotV, Root Maze, or Withered Wretch will shut down many decks until they can remove it.  And Necropotence is not good in this format.  Combo decks kill through damage...Losing two life is equivalent to requiring one less storm to Tendrils.

We can't race or outcard the blue-based combo-control in the format.  We have to disrupt them.  Lavamancer just isn't good enough.  When will people get that through their heads.  If for no other reason: it has summoning sickness.  Gorilla Shaman is also yesterday's news.  U/r fish didn't even run them if I'm remember correctly.  Also note, U/r fish is now less than tier 1.

First off; Necropotence is INSANE in almost all decks that can reliably cast them, if the opponent only needs 1 more storm to kill you than you have essentially lost (he casts the tendrills than has all the time off the world to find another one or a will). Besides those extra cards help you shorten the clock, get more disruption and generally make life easy for you (and hard for your opponent).

Lavamancer is still quite good in the current environment, welders are running rampant.

Sinkhole; I'm with you on this one, this is a card most decks can power right through and costs you a turn to cast (in the early game).

Duress is one off the best disruption cards in the format, you should definitley test this out its solid disruption.

U/r fish sometimes ran it as a one-off to support null rod. This hardly means its bad though, these are completely different decks anyway.

Now to your deck;
What adds black that red doesn't deal with? Graveyard hate is the only reason to splash black. While on the other hand R has the ability to deal with welder (one off the unrestricted cards that abuses the graveyard the most). Honorable mention to dark ritual, but really in a non-combo deck 8 one-shot acceleration spells is 3/4 to much.
What adds red that black doesn't deal with? 1) better artifact hate in gorilla shaman and artifact mutation 2) better creatures that kill faster and are cheaper than there B variants 3) can reliably deal with welder through grim lavamancer and gorilla shaman 4) it can capitalize much better on root maze because there beatz are much cheaper than the B equivalents. Honorable mention to REB its so good in the sideboard.

So I ask the feared question; Why is this better than regular R/G Beatz/tempo?


Ps. The cards you listed are merely speed bumps against most decks, since they have developed past the point where they would scoop to these cards.

Nitpicking; Combo decks kill through lifeloss with tendrills not damage.

[[supa_t(im)]]

First, go back and read Freelancer's post.  Its very true.

The deck needs to be able to disrupt tempo in a way similar to R/G.  R/G does this through root maze, wastelands, and gorilla shaman.  Also, with great support cards like grim lavamancer and naturalize.

Black needs to be able to offer similar disruption and support.

Withered wretch is awesome, as it stops yawgwin, welder activations, dragon, and other such graveyard frivolities.  His inclusion is necessary.  Much better than planar void.

Root maze is always good, as you've carried it over from R/G.

The deck is lacking on the artifact and enchantment removal, therefore I think 4 naturalize are a must in here as well.

Duress is a potent disruption card and I don't know why you don't use it.  It gets rid of combo pieces, or counter magic.  What is not to like.

A great creature that black offers is plague spitter.  It serves as a beatstick, and as welder removal.  Very good card.  Unfortunately, it makes it so river boa is unusable.  I think that in this case, boa must be dropped for better utility.

Nobody remembers the card that gives R/G its aggressiveness.  Rancor.  This card is needed to give the deck a quick enough clock to compete.  It should be in here as well.  Another reason why wretch is better than void.

This is what I propose:

28 Mana
2 Bayou
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
4 ESG
4 Dark Ritual

14 Creatures
4 Withered Wretch
4 Plague Spitter
4 Wild Mongrel
2 Call of the Herd

18 Spells
4 Rancor
4 Duress
4 Root Maze
4 Naturalize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence

Some explanations besides the ones above:
Dark ritual.  The deck has a higher mana curve than R/G therefore needs more mana acceleration.  This is great for a turn 1 spitter, or a turn 1 duress then wretch.  It also helps fuel wretch's grave hate.  It can be discarded to mongrel if needed.  It helps get out necropotence.  I think it deserves a slot.

ESG.  Not as good here as R/G, but again higher mana curve = more need for acceleration.  Also helps get out turn 1 mazes, get green mana for extra goodness.  Discards to mongrel.  Helps feed wretch.  And is a 2/2 (which is important with spitter) in a pinch.

4 Mongrels because they are extemely efficient beaters with their ability.  Also the 2 toughness makes them better than boa here.

CotH because the deck can't afford to run much more creatures, therefore it needs to run bigger creatures.  CotH grants card advantage, therefore it was better than alternatives such as troll ascetic.  Only 2 because of mana cost after playing.

Only 14 creatures because they tend to be bigger creatures with a quicker clock.

Tutor and necropotence.  Who in their right mind is against drawing cards and getting exactly what you want?  You have to be careful with necro + spitter, but if you are smart (which you should be) you should be fine.  Tutor gets you the card you need now, and that can be game breaking.

The SB can be more geared toward anti-combo cards like null rod.  Ground seal may work, but it may be redundant with wretch.  Possibly some more discard or chains and maybe some aggro hate like deed or edict.

my 2 cents.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Eh... I like the direction you're taking it in, but Null Rod is too good to lose.  It shuts down a few combos we can't touch otherwise.

28 Mana
4 Bayou
1 Wooded Foothills (Fetch + Root Maze = bad)
1 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
4 ESG
4 Dark Ritual

14 (18) Creatures
4 Withered Wretch
(Plague Spitter->SB, then changed to Engineered Plague)
4 Wild Mongrel
2 Call of the Herd
4 Duress->Mesmeric Fiend (Extended tech, look at 1st place finishes on starcity)
(4 ESG)

18 Spells
2 Diabolic Edict (or roll over and die to Oath)
4 Rancor
4 Duress->Mesmeric Fiend (Extended tech, look at 1st place finishes on starcity)
4 Root Maze
4 Naturalize
2 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague (Goblin, Pentavite, Merfolk, Wizard...)
1 Demonic Consultation (almost strictly better in this deck than demonic tutor)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence

[AmbivalentDuck]

Sorry to double post...but other interesting ideas:

Umezawa's Jitte (sp?) would be GOOD, kills welders and adds 4 damage per turn.
Cranial Extraction in the SB would be good.
Oath can't really deal with Engineered Plague (spirit) + Genju of the Cedars (on a basic forest)
This deck is almost ideal for Cabal Therapy...can we use it?

[Rancor1]

First off, you are so off base about Duress...It is the only thing that would probably keep you from just dying to combo. Like I said, combo decks can deal with Null Rod, CotV, and Extraction. The Jitte isn't really good, but Therapy seems really strong.

Don't forget, this isn't Macey Rock. Call, Mongrel, and Fiend are crap. I would much rather play 4 Boa, 4 Negator, and 4 Wretch.

Genju and Plague seem janky, I'd avoid a two-card combo that can be stopped.

Have you answered the question of why this is better than R/G?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Is Oath better than Gifts-Belcher?  It's kinda apples-oranges.  I'm trying to move away from aggro towards disruption without ending up as slow as mono-black.  Why is it "better?"  Because it doesn't roll over to combo that can work around Root Maze, it gets other disruption to back it up.  At the same time...it loses some non-continuous effect artifact destruction.  It's a metagame call, if everyone plays 7/10 or 5/3, don't play it.  Same as oath sucks in a pure monobrown control environment.

As far as Negator, you'd have to be insane to play it in a Workshop heavy environment. On extended tech not being valid...why?  Our combo runs faster, but their format is HEAVIER on the creature removal.  If Mesmeric Fiend works there...I'm certainly willing to try it here.  What's belcher going to do, swords it?

I'm REALLY liking the Jitte as a way to kill welders with a card that's not dead otherwise...  Remember, other decks use Sword of Fire and Ice to good effect.  I think Jitte is almost strictly better.  Boa is good.  Feel free to put it back in and post the change.

[ReAnimator]

Seriously try out Cuombajj witches, most people were probably too lazy to look them up so i'll post what they do, they are better than plague spitter and you dont need a second card to use them  (jitte) they are way less narrow than engineered plague maindeck (tho the plague should be in the sb most likley). you cant use mesmiric fiend or boa with them but what does boa do ?? If a creatue doesnt have utility it is usually not good enuff for Type 1 unless you have a good reason for running it. 
 
Cuombajj Witches  BB 
T: Deals 1 damage to any target, then opponent may deal 1 damage to any target.
1/3 
 common in AN, Chr,
 

[Rancor1]

@Duck:
I agree with your first paragraph. I'll agree with your point on Negator, but Mongrel, Boa, and other creatures that only put pressure on life totals just aren't going to cut it against many decks, especially if your meta includes a lot of Workshop. The problem with Fiend is that it's just a bit expensive for something that Therapy does more effectively, for less. The one point per turn isn't that relevant, although it is good with Rancor.

I don't have much experience with Jitte, but if you say so...

@ReAnimator: The Cuombajj Witches do seem pretty good.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I still like the spitter better.  It owns fish, goblins, welders, scrubs, and still beats for 2 in the same turn.  Last time I checked 3 damage a turn isn't too shaby.  Either way (spitter or witches) makes running boa a bit dicey, so he's gonna be out.  (BTW, boas utility comes from the fact that he is unblockable against most decks, and regenerates).

My reasoning for running bigger critters is to increase the clock of the deck without having to increase the threat density.  The deck runs a bit more protection than R/G and I think it can support the larger critters with proper accel.

Null rod should be in the SB, but I don't think it needs to be in the MD.  Of course, I haven't tested this particular deck, I'm just speaking from prior experience with the card.

4 fetchlands are probably the minimum I would go.  They help for mana fixing, which is especially important in this deck, and they thin the deck for more business spells.  Even with maze, 4 doesn't hurt at all.  Trust me on this, don't make me explain this again (just go read a previous R/G thread and you'll understand).

Naturalize and duress help against oath, but I agree, some removal MD would be nice.

[Astro]

Sinkhole might not need to to be in the deck, but let me defend my position on them.  I feel that you guys are severely underrating them.  Yes they do cause a turn to cast however aren't they almost as good as strip effects?  While you guys claim that Sinkhole slows your second turn, isn't this also the case with strip effects? 

Look at it this way:

The Sinkhole way:  Play a mana producing land say go, next turn drop a land play Sinkhole and blow up your opponents  land, third turn drop a land, you now have 3 lands.

The strip way:  Play a mana producing land say go, next turn drop a strip and blow up your opponents  land, third turn drop a land, you now only have two lands.

Claims that say it wrecks your tempo just aren't true.  I'm not saying its better than strips but in some case it is and in others it isn't. 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wiegh out the goods and bads of both cards.  They are actually pretty close to even.

Strip effects goods and bads:

The bad:
Strip effects can usually only blow up non basics
Strip effects cost a land drop

The good:
Strip effects are uncounterable
Strip effects can be tapped for mana

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sinkhole goods and bads:

The bad:
Sinkhole is Counterable
Sinkhole costs two black

The good:
Sinkhole is a large threat, excellent for fishing out counters
Sinkhole can target any land it wants
Sinkhole doesn't cost a land drop

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They can be very tight, especially with Root Maze on the table.  Imagine this:  First turn land Root Maze, next turn land Sinkhole your opponents tapped land (they never even got a turn), third turn land (your opponent doesn't have shit and you have 3 mana to play any way you want).

BigMac recently took a BW aggro control deck to a 1st place finish at a very large power European tourney packing four Sinkholes and his deck didn't even have half the synergy with Sinkhole as this deck does.  Play with them or not, I don't feel they should totally be ruled out.

Its that some of these cards that got played when Sui black was viable became junk to people after the deck took a nose dive.  And true, Hippy and Hymn to Tourach seriously don't pull thier wieght these days, but Sinkhole has always been good.

[Freelancer]

Is Oath better than Gifts-Belcher?  It's kinda apples-oranges.  I'm trying to move away from aggro towards disruption without ending up as slow as mono-black.  Why is it "better?"  Because it doesn't roll over to combo that can work around Root Maze, it gets other disruption to back it up.  At the same time...it loses some non-continuous effect artifact destruction.  It's a metagame call, if everyone plays 7/10 or 5/3, don't play it.  Same as oath sucks in a pure monobrown control environment.

Actually all you really gain in terms off disruption is discard (which you refuse to use) and graveyard hate, RG beatz can also use null rod to great effect or it can maindeck pyrostatic pillars (which are great in the current environment) or blood moons depending on the metagame. It has game 1 against combo; 4x root maze, 4x mox monkey you have game 1; 4x cotv, 4x wretch, 3x null rod. And cotv on 0 and 2 really isn't that great against TPS and most combo decks since they have all the time off the world to find bounce, also wretch is way to slow and gets on line turn 3 unless you get a ritual at which point it gets on line turn 2 (still to slow against decks like meandeck SX). Game 1 both deck have similar problems, although your deck has a slight advantage. Post board a regular build off RG beatz has: 3/4 red elemental blast (depends), 4x pillar, 2/3 null rod, 4x root maze, 4x mox monkey, you have post board: the same disruption. As you can see RG beatz has a clear advantage game 2/3 over your deck, since it sides in so much. There are always 4x pillar in the side and most off the time also null rods, although this is dependant on the build and metagame, but you noted that this is in a heavy combo meta so I just listed the cards RG beatz can and often will run.(REB and pillar are common, null rods with REB and pillar is very good in a combo heavy metagame)

Oh and RG beatz and GB beats are similar decks in that they have the same goal, they both want to disrupt than drop the beatz and kill. The only difference is color and the nature off disruption.

They can be very tight, especially with Root Maze on the table.  Imagine this:  First turn land Root Maze, next turn land Sinkhole your opponents tapped land (they never even got a turn), third turn land (your opponent doesn't have shit and you have 3 mana to play any way you want).

Your land also comes into play tapped.

Tempo decks need a low mana curve to maintain tempo, second turn wasteland means you can still use 1 mana to drop a thread or disruption piece on the table. With a sinkhole you lose ALL off the available mana, the difference between a land drop and 2 mana is huge in tempo decks. It also has a big drain me sign which in 9/10 cases is a to big off a tempo loss to overcome. While a waste + a 1 mana drop means you stall mana drain for another turn.