{New Deck} U/w aggro-control

[Freelancer]

Do you even listen to us? I told you 2 or 3 posts ago that the ratio between your creatures and creature enhancers is way off. And thus you need to either run less equipments or more creatures. You said that fish is just as reliant on its creatures as you, but that is just blatantly wrong.


You say you know how aggro/control works, remember this: Aggro/control is all about tempo, while at the same time beating down with creatures.
Yet you have a grand total of 14 (6x artifact acc. 4x mana drain, 4x force) tempo  cards while aggro/control is all about tempo. Now compare this to regular fish;

4x spiketail hatchling (relevant because of mana denial)
2x stifle
3x null rod
4x force of will
4x wasteland
1x strip mine
1x misdirection
2x daze
2x artifact acc.

They have 24 tempo cards, thats almost twice as much than you (Spiketail doesn't steal tempo without mana denial). All of that was replaced with cards that cost tempo effectively slowing you down. The cards I am talking about are obviously the equipments, they cost a initial investment of mana just to put them into play (doing nothing) and than even more mana to actually use them (mana=tempo so you are losing a lot of tempo here).
Aggro control needs to disrupt the opponent in the early game and gain tempo (either through speeding up your own deck, or slowing down the opponent) otherwise it simply loses to a superior win condition and draw engine.



On jitte VS. SoFI;

Advantages Jitte:
Kills critters
Clock speeds up with 4 damage each turn
Lifegain
Triggers on combat damage, not damage to player

Disadvantages Jitte:
Is completely shut down by null rod (equipped or not)
The 4 extra damage each turn is one turn delayed

Advantages SoFI:
Draws a card
Kills critters
4 extra damage a turn
Pro-blue and Pro-red, important in fish match up (pro-blue) because they can't block. Also makes removal harder (no burn).
Critters get +2/+2 immediately
Works under null rod when equipped

Disadvantages SoFI:
Needs to deal damage to the player
Can only kill critter when damage is dealed to opponent
Costs 1 mana more to play
Can only kill X/2 critters


The lifegain on jitte is hardly relevant in T1 because decks are often capable of killing you regardless of +10 life or not (exception to the rules: Doomsday, and even that can storm up for a lot and still kill you with tendrills of agony).

Blocking rarely happens, because the only creatures that can actually block a SoFI'ed creature in T1 are artifact creatures. And juggernaut can't block because it has to attack. The only creatures that can actually block a SoFI'ed creature are green and those usually don't fly (which yours do).

The only advantage jitte has is that its 1 mana less to cast, but it is a one turn slower clock (you won't be able to use the counters until the next time you attack and even than you have to go unblocked to deal extra damage).

So I think SoFI is the best equipment (between jitte and SoFI) in the current environment, if you don't believe so give reasons why.

[Dralock]

I guess thre real question of sword vs jitte comes down to if your opponent is running null rod, or if you are expecting to SEE many null rods wherever you are going. Considering the popularity of fish, I can see that happening. But it might not, considering the popularity of slaver and workshop as well.

So, it comes down to a question of your meta. I personally don't have to worry about null rod all that much, but if I was heading to a SCG event, or Gencon, or Origins etc, I would definitely be very weary of the rod.

When you consider the deck that jitte would be going in to, though, think about how it is no longer relying on a lockdown, and is being played BBS style with a bit of an aggro flair. This deck can't be thought of as a resilient tempo deck because it isn't. Its just a control deck that uses cheap creatures to draw cards and slowly take the opponents life total down to nothing. So a resolved null rod has no more of a devistating effect to this deck than it does to, say, belcher or memnarch.dec.

So I am going to have to say that null rod isn't that great of a point in the jitte vs SoFI argument. If they resolve it, you are kinda screwed anyway, and you should be treating null rod like you would playing belcher or memnarch.dec. Get rid of it as fast as you can or do NOT let it hit the table.

Moving on, we can address the other points of sword vs jitte:

Jitte advantages not already discussed:

No pro blue / works with curiosity
Welder removal a turn sooner than SoFI
You still add counters if you chump block
Good way to spend mana drain mana


Disadvantages not already discussed:

Doesn't give bonuses for equipping
Chalice for 2 wrecks you.


SoFI advantages not already discussed:

Good way to spend mana drain mana


SoFI disadvantages not already discussed:

Replaces curiosity
One turn slower than jitte


Jitte damage is not 4 a turn, its 2, just like SoFI. You always need to leave counters to destroy threats like juggernaut.

I run both of these bad boys MD on account of their usefullness. At first I bashed the jitte just like everyone else, then I played with it and it became clear the advantages jitte has to offer a vintage aggro or aggro/control deck for less mana than sword of fire and ice.

Ok, I will be strait with you, I just ran out of mental steam. I want to close with one other point though: Jitte and SoFI need to take up no more than 3 slots in your deck. I will say that dropping them to one and one will probably be the best configuration if you decide to run both.

Running swords to plowshares in conjunction with these cards is how to win games. They are not strong enough to just put out and go, but are expensive (mana) tools to help with the disruption game on your way to victory.

[mongrel12]

I'm going to settle this through a quote from AngryPheldagrif on SCG (I know he's banned, but this is actually some decent material)

I'm not advocating the outright dismissal of Jitte on the basis that Sword of F/I is better, I'm dismissing it on the basis that it is a worthless POS. Sword is only marginally better, and only playable at all because it's a colorless card drawing method.

So you drop Jitte turn 2, and swing on turn 3. Wow. You've just wasted two entire turns of tempo. In case you didn't notice, you're playing a tempo deck. Assuming you were able to drop a turn one Flying Men or Javilineer (because otherwise Jitte is ever less useful, as though such a thing were possible), you've just wasted the fundamental turn.

Let's go back to Magic 101 for a moment. Every deck has a 'fundamental turn'. That is the turn in which the deck's strategy unfolds. This is the turn the control deck gains control, or the combo deck wins. Fish is a tempo deck. Fish's fundamental turn is 2. Turn 2 is the turn you drop your Hatchling/Standstill/Null Rod/Meddling Mage/or whatever little lock component you're running, often with some counter backup. Now obviously Fish doesn't exactly win that turn, but that is when it needs to do something to set the pace for the game, or else it's going to fall behind against the decks that can out-control or out-aggro it, and rarely recovers.

Let's compare this to a second turn Jitte. What does that accomplish? Nothing. You tap your two land, precluding even the use of a simple Wasteland to buy time, to accomplish absolutely nothing. And then you equip on turn 3 and swing. Just having to equip the thing Time Walks you again effectively, and your net benefit is 2 charge counters. 2 whole charge counters. For 3 turns of effort. Ask any veteran Fish player what they want to have set up after 3 turns, and I doubt they'd tell you '2 charge counters'.

So, three turns into the game you have a Flying Man/Javilineer equipped with a 2 counter Jitte. Meanwhile, you opponent has Tinkered for Colossus, launched a 10 spell Tendrils, mowed the lawn, and pounded 3 rounds of Jagermeister with Kowal.

That or they're sitting on their Chalice for 2 and asking a judge why you're putting counters on something that cannot legally resolve.

I've already 2-0'ed my opponent and am watching your match with an air of boredom, sipping a Red Bull and munching trail mix while I wait for the round to end.

Good luck with it.

"Tempo loss of any kind results in losses for fish type decks. Jitte=tempo loss. Even if you have it MD for late game, what makes you think it will resolve against something like Oath?"'--This is lunar on SCG.

[Zeylon]

Normal fish is all about Tempo, bc. it really can't draw enough cards to keep up in the mid game otherwise.

Jitte does buy you tempo, it just takes a turn or two to do so but the tempo advantage you gain from detering the opponent from attacking and clearing the opponent's board of creatures is enormous. And you were never supposed to play it turn 2. You're best off doing it when you have the mana to cast and equip it the same turn, and preferly take down a creature that same turn as well. The same applies to all your equipment. You shouldn't waste two turns to cast it. You should be drawing two cards off Mask the same turn you play it, sort of like a mini skeletal scrying, but one that stick around to draw you more cards each and every turn after.

In terms of dealing with Aggro SOFI is severely limited in the types of aggro decks it can deal with. Toad said it best at SCG: Minishocks maybe good against mirror matchups and Welders, but they do jack against stuff like Workshop Aggro and Madness.

But this is an irrelevent discussion, if I said it once, I've said it a hundred times. This deck isn't fish. I even said that in my opening post. Dralock hit the nail on the head. This is a u/w control deck. This is the reason it runs Mana Drains/Mana Leaks/Jitte and such. What's the difference? Fish's strategy is mainly delay tactics, hence tempo. This deck instead wants to start drawing 3-6 cards each turn, well before control can Scrying or Intuition/AK so that it can reliably draw the countermagic to stop any key spells (such as Scrying and AK) from resolving and thus maintain control. Jitte is critical in letting it do that because a resolved Jitte can completely stop aggro in it's tracks and reduces the amount of time control has to resolve something significant past your coutner spells.

You want to play a tempo deck, that suits your playstyle more. Fine. Play something like this...

WuTang Redux

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Cloud Sprite - Flying Men were just so much better than Javenleers in most situations that I couldn't resist running 8. But Javenleers, Mother of Runes, and Weathered Wayfarer are all great utility creatures that work great in this deck based on your meta. So I recommend trying out all 4 here and seeing which works best in your meta. Mother's Advantages - Protects your curious flyers, your meddling mage lock, makes sure your ninjas can't be blocked - thus drawing you cards, and can ensure that your curiosu flyers and such can get past Akorma's and Exalted Angels so you can try and draw into a Swords. Wayfarer - Lets you draw into all 5 wastelands each game to really screw over your opponent's manabase. Javenleers - Great antiwelder and antifish tech. But that's about it. Cloud Sprite - Can be pitched to FoW late game unlike Suntail Hawk. Also more likely to have access to blue mana turn 1 than to white mana.
4 Meddling Mage
4 Flying Men
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Curiosity
3 Null Rod
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Island

SB:
1 Null Rod
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Seasinger
2 Orim's Chant
2 Arcane Lab
2 Energy Flux
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Stifle (If I was running Weather Wayfarer, I would swap these for something else).

If you're ready to try something new though, give the original decklist I posted a shot. Like I said, cut the Yawgie's Will and some other cards for 2-3 Ninja of Deep Shadow. If you insist, throw in some StP too, just don't cut Jitte to do it. The deck's a lot of fun, and once you get the hang of how to play it properly, you can do very well with it.

[Zeylon]

This is a tangent but I could see the below card finding a home in this deck...

Erayo, Soratami Ascendant 
Legendary Creature - Moonfolk Monk 
Flying
When four spells are played this turn flip Erayo, Soratami Ascendant. 
1/1
/// FLIP ///
Erayo's Essence
Legendary Enchanment
Counter the first spell each opponent plays each turn.
#35/165

This is all theory but...

This deck has the capacity to play 4 spells in one turn (thanks to cloud of faries, free spells like daze (you can fizzle it if you want), cheap spells like curiosity, all the cards it draws, the power/free moxen etc.).

If it does, then you have an incredible lock on your opponent most turns.

If it doesn't, you have a 1/1 flyer for the same cost as spiketail (which isn't as effective without the mana denial strategy anyways).

Obviously, this is all still early, but what do you guys think?