Slaver USA thread locked?

[Eandori]

Locking the thread because you are tired of hearing about the discussion?  Pretty weak man.

If the thread stays because people are posting on it, and the read count is going up because people are reading it, then why lock a thread?  It's not breaking any rules and it's an active topic that people were discussing.  I would appreciate it if you unlock the thread, thanks.

BTW, I had an idea about a possible change I was going to suggest to the deck.  Two concerns were definately not having the Time Walk main deck, and no draw spells that can be cunning wished for.  So last night I was thinking about switching the Time Walk with the Fact or Fiction in the sideboard.  I didn't have Time walk main deck before because I could not figure out what to remove for it, and since most of the time I only needed it mid-late game, that worked.

But the draw in my deck is much stronger after including the brainstorms, so maybe I could allow the ForF to go sideboard so I can wish for it, and Walk main deck.  I'll have to test that out.

Edwin (Eandori)

[silvernail]

that should be a stronger list if you change out the FoF for the walk because you've now essentially increased the FoF count by X - 1 were X = # of cunning wishes in your deck and you've increased the chance of drawing walk AND playing it the same turn whereas with the burning wish you might need to wait and that might be bad.

[crazynlazy]

Dude, dissing power for some type 2 card or abeyance isn't broken or very interesting IMO.

[Kowal]

You don't have to read the thread.

Locking it shouldn't have happened, even though I think the list was a pile of shit.

[Eandori]

Dude, dissing power for some type 2 card or abeyance isn't broken or very interesting IMO.

Well you sure spent a lot of time reading and posting on a thread that was not interesting to you. 

I explained my reasons for not having the Walk main deck many times before.  I needed to find something else that justified moving it back to main deck and moving that other card out.  Since I was able to get the walk when it was most powerfull, It was not a need that was dire.  After making all those changes to my deck, it just took me a while to realize which card would work well trading for the walk.

The ForF works well because just like what was mentioned before, having some draw in the sideboard that I can wish for helps alot and that was already something I was trying to figure out.

Locking it shouldn't have happened,

Agreed.

even though I think the list was a pile of shit.

So think many other people, about many other decks, until they start placing well.  I think it's cool that a couple of URW slaver decks have placed at big tournaments.  Remember, my theory on this deck from DAY ONE was a slaver deck with answers.  Perhaps my decklist is not as stong.  Perhaps my decklist IS just as strong.  But I think the placement in this tournament gives some proof that the theory had merit.

Check it out: 2 white Control Slaver decks in the top 8.

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=23614.0

Like I stated before, I have not yet played in a really big tournament since making my deck because we have not HAD ANY in my area.  Portland Oregon sucks for power tournaments.

[Mixing Mike]

Uhh...I do agree with Kowal.  I know Shay has said that he would sooner cut Ancestral then cut Yawg's Will.  Also, that's only two placings for this deck.  How does that prove it to be better than the more standard builds, which have won mutiple pieces of power by mutiple different people?

[Eandori]

Uhh...I do agree with Kowal.  I know Shay has said that he would sooner cut Ancestral then cut Yawg's Will.

Yawgmoth's Will and Ancestral Recall are both in my deck.  What deck are you referring to?

Also, that's only two placings for this deck.  How does that prove it to be better than the more standard builds, which have won mutiple pieces of power by mutiple different people?

You are hilarious man.  What kind of question is that? 

-Did I ever claim that this deck is definately superior?  Show me where I did.

-If one deck has existed for a year, another deck was created 2 months ago, which one has had more opportunity to place?

-Doesn't winning a major tournament give credit to a deck for being strong?  Was it a standard build that won?

Fact is, I never stated Slaver USA or (URW Slaver) to be better, or the best deck out there.  I stated that it was a strong deck and I stand by that.  I really don't know what the best deck out there is.  It changes all the time.  It's ENTIRELY possible that the "best deck" has never yet been discovered!  You can look over decklists and see what you like.  You can watch a deck in action, and give it your opinion.  You can look at what places results at tournaments.  Then you can make your opinion, nothing more then that.

Personally, I think you just can't stand it that a slaver deck with "answers" won anything.  That was exactly the type of slaver deck that many of you tried to tell me was not going anywhere.  Well...  it just did.    

[Mixing Mike]

Yawgmoth's Will and Ancestral Recall are both in my deck.  What deck are you referring to?

The very first list in the thread.  I'm happy to see you've smartened up a bit and put will in the deck like how everone suggested on page 1.

-Did I ever claim that this deck is definately superior?  Show me where I did.

On the very first page of the thread, because you decided to put effort and time into it.  If you didn't think it was worth while, then why waste your time?

-If one deck has existed for a year, another deck was created 2 months ago, which one has had more opportunity to place?

Suprise factor wins games.  Also note that it took the more standard builds of Control Slaver about 4 months of consistant wins with mutiple players in different areas before people started to look at it, even after a primer has been released on it.

-Doesn't winning a major tournament give credit to a deck for being strong?  Was it a standard build that won?

What about this deck?   Everyone blew this one off, and it won an event, and it was even Waterbury that it won too, quite possibly the hardest large event to win due to such a high density of good players that attend.

Personally, I think you just can't stand it that a slaver deck with "answers" won anything.  That was exactly the type of slaver deck that many of you tried to tell me was not going anywhere.  Well...  it just did.   

Personlly, you're wrong.  I run an Echoing Truth in my build, and am thinking about running a maindeck Cunning Wish over it.  I already told you in page one of that damn thread why reactive cards are'nt too hott.  Reactive cards are cards that are only good then they can be played.  Things like Swords and Disenchant.  They're a dead card in the real game of Magic until you're opponent gives you a worthy target.  In a real CS deck, they play pro-active threats.  Cards that are threats that also hep you answer your opponents threats.  Note, it took you a month to realize that Mirror Universe is useless trash.

[Moxlotus]

If you don't think a variant of a deck is better than the standard version, then why the hell would you play it.  You play decks you think are better than others of that type.  That's just common sense.  If I played Hival's "TPS" list over a standard TPS deck it would be because I thought Hival's list was better. 

[Eandori]

No, YOU GUYS play decks because you consider them better.  I play decks that I enjoy.  Winning is fun, but so is being creative.  So is innovating.  It's not about the 20 times you try something and fail, it's about the 1 time you succeed.  Thomas Edison had a very good quote in this subject.  He said "I haven't failed, I found 10,000 ways that don't work."

Nice try though.  No I never claimed that my deck was the best.  I stated exactly why I was making it and I was very clear about it to.  No matter how hard you try to prove otherwise.

If you don't think a variant of a deck is better than the standard version, then why the hell would you play it.

Because trying new stuff is fun.  Remember fun?  Has this game just become nothing more then a vehicle to prove yourself to the rest of the world?  Do you feel mad when you are proved wrong because your self worth is tied up how other magic players view you?  That's really too bad.  Because this is a game, and it's about enjoying yourself.  Make this a job, or a justification for why you have value, and you miss the whole point.

You guys are probably pretty cool people in person.  It's too bad you get so caught up in yourselves here on these boards.

Also note that it took the more standard builds of Control Slaver about 4 months of consistant wins with mutiple players in different areas before people started to look at it, even after a primer has been released on it.

I believe it.  And this is proof of what?

C'mon, you can do it.

What does that prove?

You are almost there......

That decks....  CAN be good.  Even if the "popular majority" does not realize it.

Good Job   

[Kowal]

Because this is a game, and it's about enjoying yourself.  Make this a job, or a justification for why you have value, and you miss the whole point.

I'd love to agree with you, but your statement is flawed.  In a tournament setting, your focus is winning.  Enjoying yourself is what casual is for, and unfortunately, that's where it belongs.  Until you can finally face up to that and play as well as possible with as solid a deck as possible, you will always be a tier two player.

I'm terribly sorry if this post offends anybody, but it's the truth.  Innovation is good, but so is realizing when something is just not as good as other options and moving on to a different idea.

[crazynlazy]

No, YOU GUYS  play decks because you consider them better.  I play decks that I enjoy.

Well no offense or anything but wouldn't it make more sense to have posted in casual? And I take it back about interesting, your thread was fine... just not broken.

[Rico Suave]

Make this a job, or a justification for why you have value, and you miss the whole point.

I know there are many people who do make Vintage their job, or at least one of them, and get quite a good income off it while still enjoying the game. 

Winning a piece of power, or multiples of them, is quite nice.  To be honest if I'm going to play in a tournament I'm going to play the deck that has the best chance of winning me the prize.  Unfortunately, you do not share this point of view because you think that "fun" and "competitive" cannot go hand in hand, yet what you don't realize is that you can have just as much fun playing a better version of the deck, or even more fun because now you are winning more games. 

Just because you copied somebody else's list and didn't change cards from it doesn't mean you are somehow a worse person.  I wish instead of trying to be original more people just netdecked instead because then Vintage would be a better format. 

Anyway, your thread didn't deserve to be locked, but that is neither here nor there.  I don't even see why people were still posting in it because trying to convince you to use cards like Time Walk and Yawgmoth's Will is like trying to convince dry paint to come off the wall.  I stopped posting in it because you were simply wasting my time, and if you don't understand why Time Walk should be in the deck then you SURELY are not going to understand the intricate deckbuilding structure of Slaver and why your other choices are off. 

At anyrate I have only one last thing to say: just because a Slaver deck with white in it placed well a couple times doesn't make it optimal.  People place too much emphasis on "OMG, this placed at a tournament!" when they should put more emphasis on "wait a minute, if that person had been playing a better deck they would have probably placed higher."  Just some food for thought.

[Demonic Attorney]

Locking it shouldn't have happened, even though I think the list was a pile of shit.

[Eandori]

I'd love to agree with you, but your statement is flawed.  In a tournament setting, your focus is winning.  Enjoying yourself is what casual is for, and unfortunately, that's where it belongs.  Until you can finally face up to that and play as well as possible with as solid a deck as possible, you will always be a tier two player.

Sorry, but I think your logic is flawed here.

If my goal is: To obtain power cards  Then I have a very different path.  I will take on more work, or save my money, or sell something I have, and eventually obtain power cards.  I play Magic because I enjoy it.  I don't want to make my favorite pasttime, my job.  Because it RUINS the game!  If I have cash, I can get power.  It's that simple.  As of right now, my entire slaver USA deck is real except 2 cards.  I have 4 mana drains, 1 library of alexandria, a beta sol ring, the 5 moxes, a lotus, twist, walk, and many of my less expensive cards are foil.  How many of those did I have 6 months ago??  None.  After selling my collection in 1999 I had moved away from MTG until sometime last year.

Now since I was not all caught up in just WINNING ALL THE TIME, I really enjoyed all my games.  Every time I lose, it's not "missing a shot at power."  Every tournament has less stress.  Would I like to win?  Sure.  Going home with power is great.  But if I have 40 hours to spend working to obtain a power card, I could rigorously work work work on my deck, trying to perfect every little bit of it and play in tournaments until I will eventually win.  The process of which has far more pressure and I would not have as much fun.  Or I could spend those 40 hours working for 8 to 30 an hour, earning myself $320 to $1200 and go buy it.

One way means I will spend all my free time "working" towards my goals via playing.  I may get it, I may not.  The other way I spend most likely LESS time working towards something I want.  But I KNOW I will get it.  Which really seems better?

When did I ever say "fun" and "compeditive" cannot go hand in hand?  Stop putting words in my mouth so you can refute them.  I have immense fun during tournaments and dispite anything you claim, I'm very compeditive at every one I'm at.  Look at the facts, in a tournament of 40 people, 1 will win and 39 will lose.  Odds are not with every person.  If you spent all your time getting ready and lost, what good was it?  I hope you enjoyed yourself.  Because had you just done some work for some money, you probably would have gotten your goal!

I stand by what I said.  I play this game for fun.  If I want financial advancement, or to increase my collection I'll go do it the old fashioned way.  I spent my 6 years in college getting my 2 degrees.  I can easily go out there and earn $30 an hour.  So I'm not wasting my fun time ruining my favorite hobby for less gains then my job.  If I can enjoy myself while creating a deck, and that deck ends up being compeditive and winning tournaments, GREAT!  I spent my free time well, and ended up winning after all.  If I lose, oh well, I had a good time doing it.

[Eandori]

Just because you copied somebody else's list and didn't change cards from it doesn't mean you are somehow a worse person.  I wish instead of trying to be original more people just netdecked instead because then Vintage would be a better format.

We CANNOT disagree more here.

What I love about this game is the 7800 different cards.  The nearly unlimited deck combinations.  The unknown strategies your opponent will throw at you.  I love building a new deck, playing a new deck.  I love new match up's and trying to think on my feet how I can work against what my opponent plays.  That is the main pull drafting formats have for me.  You show up, draft a bunch of cards, play the deck, and think on your feet.  Magic is a great game because it has this difference.

While net decking can have it's positives, it also comes with severe disadvantages in my eyes.

-People don't learn how to build decks.
-Everybody ends up playing the same decks (not fun for me.)
-Instead of having to think your way through a new and fresh situation, you end up robotically spitting out your responses, same as you did the last 50 games.
-Meta games become stagnant
-Creative players start dropping from the tournament scene, because the game gets boring for them.
-Only the cards used to build net-decks retain/gain value.  All others drop.
-Trading cards becomes stupid, people only trade for net-deck cards.
-Buying packs becomes stupid, all you care about is net deck cards.
-You drive away new players, because this game already has a steep learning curve and when every spot you see magic cards those players are all playing the strongest decks and new players have no chance.
-Net decking stifles creativity.
-Net decking stifles innovation.
-Net decking makes attempting to build and refine your own decks futile for MOST people.  If the best deck already exists and EVERYBODY plays it, creating your own deck is just committing yourself to lose.  Unless you are ALREADY a superb deck builder.  Most people are not "superb" deck builders.

You want this fabulous hobby that we love so much to grow?  I don't think Net Decking helps with that.  Sorry, but I don't.  If you look back in history, Wizards of the Coast feels the same way I do.

One more comment, Diablo 2 was a great game.  I loved playing it, until I hacked it.  After hacking it was fun playing my level 99 mage for only a few days.  The game lost all it's challenge.  In the end, it really was the journey, not the goal that I enjoyed.  Net deck does VERY similar things to the meta game in Magic.  Players completely lose the opportunity to discover cards and decks on their own.  All it takes is 1-3 people in an area to net deck, and now everybody is pushed to do the same.

Lame.  Very lame.

[Vegeta2711]

Locking it shouldn't have happened, even though I think the list was a pile of shit.

^correct

Everything Eandori said

Ah good, at least you made it very clear your just some random who hates netdecking because it's unfun and you believe it's bad for the game.

That pretty much explains everything. Go reread what Rico and Kowal said until it sinks in.

[Lunar]

I just dont get why people like this post in competitive tourney forums...

there IS a casual forum on TMD...

Not that I dont like innovation dont get me wrong, but if you cannot take critisism on your deck eandori, then dont post a thread where some of the top vintage TOURNEY players are going to critique it.

[Kowal]

There's a casual forum, but there's also a newbie forum.  For issues like whether or not to add black in a Yawgmoth's Will deck, or why you should run Time Walk--  that's a newbie thing, not a casual thing.

[Juggernaut GO]

This deck will win SCG chicago, without running black.

[Lunar]

yes kowal, but he has stated numerous times that he uses this deck for CASUAL play, and isnt into winning for the purpose of just winning...thats casual in my book...

[Eandori]

Since you are all jumping to conclusions on my status as a player, let me clarify it for you.  No more assumptions.

I'm forced into Casual catagories baesd on time, I cannot spend as much time on this stuff as many of you.  But I love tournaments, I love very compeditive play, and I DO think my deck IS a very tournament worthy compeditive deck.

Hopefully that clears up the speculations?

============================

On a different subject...

Yes, Net-decking has had a devastating impact on this game.  I played this game before the internet was packed with set lists, decklists and tons of how to's.  Had net decking been there from the start, I don't think Magic would have ever caught on like it did.  Half the fun was collecting the cards, seeing something you never saw before, and creating your own deck then upgrading it over time until it was solid.

============================

On a different subject again...

Drop the "he's asking if Yawgmoth's will and Time Walk are good" bullshit.  It's really getting annoying.  Those cards are NOT in every deck, because they don't always fit in every deck.  Time Walk has always been in my deck, The will got added shortly after creating this deck.  I have always known their good cards.  I was trying to see how the deck played in alternate forms.

I swear, the attitudes on these boards are so bad.  So many of you post comments like your God's gift to Magic.  This is the newbie forum, does coming here and putting down "newbies" make you feel tough?  No wonder this game is dying.

[Negator13]

Im pretty sure the thread was locked because it was basically 4+ pages of you deciding not to run Time Walk and then trying to find reasons why after the fact.

[lizzish]

The thread was getting ridiculous. Everyone was (and some still are) beating a dead horse.

Yes, he should probably be running Time Walk. Yes, he's got one of the dimmest views of theory I've ever encountered.
No, the thread probably should not have been closed.

What confounds me is why people are still trying to change his mind about his choices. He's made it clear that he's not going to change his Super Awesome Deck of Coolness, and he obviously doesn't have same brand of interest in competitive play that most of the people on this site have.

That being said, the "Magic is dying" thing just makes me sad. So many people say that because not everyone plays the game exactly the way they do. One of the best things about the game is its ability to support both competitive and casual players. WoTC clearly knows what it's doing, because the game isn't showing any signs of dying.

@ Eandori
Look, you asked for  advice on your deck and you got it. You then proceeded to tell everyone who suggested things that they clearly didn't know what they were talking about, and only when people patted you on the head and encouraged your "innovation" did you open up and start taking suggestions. So, stop whining. So what if everyone on TMD thinks your deck is terrible? If it makes you happy, play it, but don't go on and on (and on and on and on) about how you think it's competitive. If you think it's so competitive, paypal me an entry fee and I'll play it at the next Waterbury.

Personally, I thought it was the funniest thread on TMD.

[Joblin Velder]

Eandori,

I'm going to chime in here. My posts outside of the tournament announcement forum are generally pretty rare, but this topic felt like something I should have some input on.

I think you might have had some misconceptions about this forum. This is dedicated to tournament level, balls to the wall competetive, rock 'em sock 'em Vintage. No one says that can't be fun, but it's certainly a little different than your interpretation. While a certain deck may be more enjoyable or creative, the end goal of this community is efficiancy and effectiveness.

I have a lot of decks that I enjoy playing more than Rector Trix or 2 Land Belcher, yet these are two of the decks I take to tournaments most. Why? Because they are more likely to win than my Mana-Drain powered Pirate deck, despite the fact that neither run Piracy or Capsize (Get it? Pirates, boats? HAHAHAHA).

Anyways, I got a little distracted. What I'm really getting at is no one is saying you can't have fun, just realize that the more enjoyable but less efficient decks should probably be left for the casual forum and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Ian.

[Rico Suave]

-Net decking stifles innovation.

"Stifling innovation" is just a common euphemism for "I want to suck."  This phrase has been in circulation for years now, and trust me when I say you are not the first to say it. 

Sorry if this offends you, but you just aren't going to be a good player until you understand it.

[Kowal]

In terms of threads deserving lockdown, the old one didn't need it.  This one, however, has been ripe for it for a while.

[Juggernaut GO]

start throwing out some racial slurs and it will be GTG

[Eandori]

lol, yeah this thread has gone off track much more then the other one.

My intention on posting here was to get much of the input I did.  Due to my lack of large vintage tournament exposure I wanted the input of people who do attend more of them.  Much of the input I got was very appreciated.  Comments like this are just ducky...

"I don't see the logic in the choice of xxx card, why not play with yyy?"
"There is not much synergy in your xxx cards in your deck.  I would go a different route."
"I don't think your deck would fair very well against xxx deck."
"xxx was a decent idea.  Did you ever try yyy instead?"

Comments about the deck, or questions are just fine.  But when you just flippently insult the person posting, or you make no input to the thread but "this deck is a piece of shit"  What good is that?  Does that help the thread?  Does that help these boards?  Tell me how "Serious tournament players" benefit by reading the 19214th comment saying "this deck sucks ass."  I don't believe many of the comments made in my thread added to the thread at all.

"Innovation that is not synonomous with sucking, is done by people much better then you."

How does that help a thread?  Does anybody learn from that?  Did my deck get better from that?  Do you really think if I don't care to spend my time with comments like, it means I don't understand what this board is about?  If you REALLY think these boards are for very serious and compeditive play, then I suggest you back that up. 

I can take comments, and suggestions JUST FINE.  It's pointless insults and negativity that make me lose respect for these boards and don't benefit anybody in my opinion.

Anyways, I think it was worth discussing some of the opinions given.  General statements like "Threats are always better then answers" are wrong and deserve to be corrected.  Or "Darksteel citadel has no value in your deck without Crucible of worlds."  These comments beg to be responded to.

Was I totally against having Time Walk main deck?  No.  I stated clearly why it was Sideboard.  Because I can still get it in game one if needed, and I was not sure what card to switch for the walk.  Fact works just fine, but it took me time to locate that card as a switch.  While stating "Time Walk needs to go main deck" might be true, it does not hold the value of "Rotate the Walk and the Fact."  I didn't want to trade the Walk for Abeyance, because that card is central to the stategy of how I play my deck.

Anyways, hopefully the point I'm trying to make is clear.  If you want good discussion on these boards that really does benefit everybody here and encourages more people to post and learn, I suggest many people drop the insulting negative attitudes and address the topics in front of you.  Many of you did exactly that, and believe me it was appreciated.

[Jacob Orlove]

Here's a fun fact: whining about moderator decisions on the boards, instead of sending PMs, is against the rules. I'm not sure why no one closed this while I was taking my finals, but it's closed now.

Here's another fun fact: guess what you can do when a thread gets closed because it filled up with junk? You can start a new thread. The R/G beats thread in open t1 has been closed like three or four times, and each time they start over with the new lists and knowledge.

You could have done the same, but instead you wanted to whine about moderation action in the wrong place (there's nothing wrong with reasonable complaints, if they're through the proper channels), and you decided to go on absurd rants about casual versus competitive magic. TMD has one forum for casual, oddly enough, it's called the casual forum. Everywhere else, it's asumed that you're here to talk about how to win tournaments.