Knightling (err, the 2/2 for WW to end all. erghm.)

[Norm4eva]

The design space for white creatures is growing steadily more cramped, and the 2/2 for WW spot is pretty innundated with subpars and good-enoughs.  I mean, say what you want, I think Stoic Champion is a house, but...
So anyway, returning to a tired old skeleton.  The problem inherent in white creatures is, there's too many that do too many things.  Black Knights are grest (silver knights are better), Soltari Monks are dandy (Soltari Priest is better meh!) and Samurai of the Pale Curtain is always trying to peek around the corner saying "for the love of god put me in your sideboard not that pesky tormod's crypt"... So there's a weird kind of critical mass where everyone's good at something, but not everybody gets to come.  Design space is harder and harder to tinker with, both within card building and deck building.  So I propose a card that makes some bloody space in everybody's WW decklist.

WW
Knightling <--horrible name!
Creature - Human Knight

W: Choose one - -this- gains protection from red or from black UEOT; or -this- gains vigilance or first strike UEOT; or -this- gains flying or has "Whenever -this- deals damage you gain that much life" UEOT.  Play this ability only once per turn.

2/2

The idea isn't to make a monster card, but to workably consolidate a hopeless mass of 'efficient beaters' that invariably have to show up in cascades.  Doesn't completely obselete the other guys, either; dropped on the 2nd turn this guy's victim to a Shock as much as any other bear, and it'll never be as badass as a Silver Knight because of the 'once per turn' clause.  I wouldn't feel bad about changing the cost of the ability, as maybe W for all that craziness is asking too little, but the goal here is to kick those other 2/2s for WW out of the way so the critical creature mass is lowered and weenie.dec can play weird stuff like 'sorceries' and 'instants'.

[Norm4eva]

WW
Swiss Army Knight
Creature - Human Knight

W:  -This- gains your choice of protection from red, protection from black, vigilance, first strike, flying or has "Whenever -this- deals damage you gain that much life" until end of turn.  Play this ability only once per turn.

2/2

[Jacob Orlove]

Wait, so instead of being a great creature at a fair cost, it gets to be the white morphling? I don't think so. If you want to fix white's two drop problem, give it a 3-power flyer for WW.

[MrZuccinniHead]

the one per turn makes this not too bad, but the wording is horrible.  Why add all those until end of turn clauses when you only need one?

[asmoranomardicodais]

You do know that the red and black protections are worthless as it is:

Player 1: I shock your dude
Player 2: I give him Pro-Red
Player 1: I shock him again
Player 2: I give him pro-red
Player 1: Dude, you can only do that once per turn!
Player 2: Damn

His protection abilities will always be worse than the other knights.
On the other hand, this may be what you intended, so, meh

[Nibble]

You do know that the red and black protections are worthless as it is:

Paying W to counter a Shock is 'worthless'? I think it's quite good. Plus it's very useful elsewhere, such as making it unblockable vs. a monored or monoblack deck, or being able to singlehandedly stop any non-trampling red or black attacker.

I'm somewhat concerned about power here, but the fact that it has versatility but requires activation is probably okay. I don't see exactly how flying and the life-gaining fit flavor-wise, but maybe that's just me. (Quick rant: What's it going to take for Wizards to keyword the 'deal damage = you gain life' mechanic? It shows up often enough, it's a somewhat clunky wording, and everyone I know already calls it 'spirit link' anyway...)

[asmoranomardicodais]

I didn't mean it was worthless (although that is what I said, oh well), I just meant that it will never be as good as a straight protection ability.

I know that you wanted to fill WW casting cost space, but this might be in line with 1WW instead.

[Nibble]

Its pro-red won't be as good as a Silver Knight's, but sometimes it might be better to have the option of both protections, in case you don't know what your opponent is playing or they're playing both red and black. The older Knights are stronger, yes, but also more narrow.

I think if it had the option of pro-red, pro-black, first strike, and maybe vigilance, it could stand at WW. With all of those plus flying and spirit link, I'd have to lean towards 1WW.

[Norm4eva]

@orlove: Yeah, basically.  :/ :/ :/  Think about Legacy where Angel Stompy is actually a playable deck.  The creatures in there aren't chosen for their p/t.  MoR, Suntail, Soltari... evasion and tricks.  Silver Knight, pro red.  The only fat ass is Exalted, because she's a game winning sonofabitch.  Good builds don't even play Savannah Lions, because it's vanilla.  If I thought it'd behoove WW to print a 3/3 for WW, or a 3/1 flyer for WW, then I'd suggest such.  It's not warranted.  Plus the once per turn clause makes it a far cry from Morphling.  It won't untap, become untargetable, swing for 5 and block for 6 before your next untap phase.  The worst thing it'll probably end up doing is being vigilant one turn and pro r/b the next.

@asmor etc..: That's why I feel it's okay to cost this at WW.  You're absolutely right, any two burn spells will instantly make him inferior to Silver Knight.

@peeps who have doubts about the cc: Most of the 'better beaters' in the WW slot have 2 abilities anyway.  Soltari Monk/Priest, White/Silver Knight... the creatures you don't play Weenie without, basically.  They get two abilities that never 'turn off'.  This guy gets ONE A TURN.  I can see why it's a tad controversial, it's a swiss army knife, but look at our old friend Deftblade Elite.  Shouldn't he be completely nuts with all this Equipment running around?  Umezawa's Jitte + Deftblade = kill all your guys right the fuck now!  Plus he blocks huge guys later!  But he doesn't get any play at all.  He looks amazing... but he's crap.  My guy looks scary... but he's really not.  He's scared of StP and any two red/black removal spells.  Way more killable than a Silver Knight, even with MoR in play.  On the attack, he's probably tapped, because generally evasion > vigilance.  The Spirit Link thing is honestly sort of a placeholder but it's a very White ability, and I always sort of wondered when we'd see a 2/2 Spirit Linked guy anyway

I'm rewriting the text of the final version because I realized a much better way of wording it (see Death-Mask Duplicant, sort of).

[TheWellknownBrownie]

a) White doesn't have a two drop problem, aside from having too many good two drops. White needs three drops and fatter creatures in general. This doesn't fix any problems that actually exist.

b) This is inelegant as all Hell. You've got nearly as much text as a lot of bomb fattie rares, but without the mass to support it. Weenie shouldn't be this complicated. The card is fundamentally clumsy and unappealing.

[Norm4eva]

It's not in white to have midrange creatures.  Generally speaking you skip the 3/x range and head right into Serra Angel territory.  That's white's deal; little guys backed up by either big angels, big enchantments that tilt in their favor like Crusade/Ghostly Prison/Rule of Law etc, or big god spells like Geddon/Wrath etc.  The problem is, and it's been expressed on this board before, is that the 2/2 for WW thing is some kind of clumsy standard for WW.dec and so every creature that has the potential to be stunning invariably ends up in the same manacurve as guys that you already have to choose from and cut to make room.  If it were logistically feasible to run 8 Knights, 8 Soltaris, 4 Isamaru, 4 SotPC, 4 True Believers and 4 Lions then I'd do it, but the fact is a deck made of 30 creatures and probably 18-20 lands leaves no room for support spells.  Look at an Angel Stompy build for 1.5; they'll play somewhere between 19-24 creatures, 6-8 good Equipment cards, 4 StP, and some mixture of Tithe and Parallax Waves.  So maybe I'm being a jerk and making a card for a deck, but can you see how there's a clear issue regarding a cluttered 2-drop spot which could be remedied?  It's not that there's too many 2-drops, just too many good enoughs.  I'd just like to see some standard guy printed that without a doubt gets played, the same way U control would never be caught dead without FoW, the way Goblins will always play Piledrivers, so that the decklist isn't littered with the contention too many cooks in the kitchen.  I'm tired of seeing metagame WW cards, in other words.
As to being inelegant, I'd sort of hoped it was no worse than something like Ebony Charm or similar cards.  If yu can suggest a finer wording I'd appreciate it.

[Matt]

I'd rather just see a 3/3 for 1WW that had like two static good abilities (flying, vigilance would be possibly too good in comparison to Serra, but maybe not if you REALLY want to push this). That's much more useful to white decks - they need a 3/x that doesn't completely blow.

[Norm4eva]

The only qualm I have about printing a 3- power creature for white is the precedent for them is hodge-podgey and always awkward.  Usually they're bad Hill Giants or crap like Haunted Angel.  Honestly, the best one they ever got was probably Razor Golem :P  They never printed a solid one because there's not really supposed to be any midrange beaters in white.
I mean, if I had to throw out a few ideas they'd be like the suggested 3/x flying vigilant one for 1WW.  What's X though?  3 is really really good, and 2 seems counterproductive to the vigilance idea.

[Jacob Orlove]

Wait, so you're trying to fix the "problem" of too many perfectly playable creatures by obsoleting them all? That's stupid.

For the 3-power flyer, just remember that white recently got Skyhunter Skirmisher, so a good 3-power 3 drop isn't out of the question at all. Especially if it flies.

[Norm4eva]

It wasn't really an interest in obseleting them, more an interest in establishing a standard for the deck.. Most of the creatures in a given White Weenie build are meta choices - case in point the 8 pro-reds and 0 pro-blacks in AStompy.
People can't even come to a consensus on Savannah Lions; most people would rather play Tithe.  The decklist has no center, and I was hoping to realize one.  It doesn't have to be Knightling.  But I'd like there to be something that's in the echelons of Lackeys and Force of Wills, something that's just fundamentally a part of the deck.
For example, if this card were a reality;

Crazy Recruiter Guy
W
Creature - Human Guy

When -this- deals combat damage to a player, you may put a creature with power 3 or less from your hand into play.

1/2

..then it'd always go in the deck, meta or no.  And it doesn't have to BE this card either, I just want to set an example for a relative power level.  In a deck full of metagame cards I just want to see one that's uncontended.

[dandan]

As has already been pointed out, WW is a very crowded space. How about having a 2/2 for WW that could be a decent three drop (echoing Matt's suggestion)

Knightling
WW
Creature - Knight
First Strike
2/2
Kicker X (only White mana can be used to pay the Kicker cost)
If you pay the kicker cost this gets X +1/+1 counters

The White mana restriction allows this to be a lot stronger than would otherwise be allowable. I accept that a 6/6 First Striker for WWWWWW is probably a bit strong but it wouldn't happen too often.

[Matt]

Dandan, that is a REALLY good solution! However I don't think it needs the white-mana-only clause, you're already going to be base-white whenever you play it since it costs {W}.

[Norm4eva]

That guy's... really big.  O.o  I like the only white clause on the 'kicker'; because it'll always have first strike there's really not a lot of other colors who would support a 4/4 first striker for 4.  Plus using things like Ancient Tomb to speed towards larger and larger knights each turn is pretty huge.  It'll block and kill Arrogant Wurm on the third turn.
I'd almost like this post to be split up now, because it's going in different directions.  Dandan made a unique card in its execution and power level and I wouldn't want to keep it contained to this thread.
Is that guy 'the guy', though?  Does it become the auto 4-of backbone of a deck or is it just a good white beater?

[Ephraim]

It would have to be rare. {W}{W} or even {W}{W} for a 3/3 first striker is very powerful. Look at Benalish Lancer to see the power level of a similar card Wizards has already created. Maybe if the base creature were a 1/1 first striker for {W}, this would be a little more appropriate. {W}{W} for a 3/3 first striker seems more appropriate (if you think it's a little bit weak, remember that you're also paying for versatility!)

[Nazdakka]

It would have to be rare. {W}{W} or even {W}{W} for a 3/3 first striker is very powerful. Look at Benalish Lancer to see the power level of a similar card Wizards has already created. Maybe if the base creature were a 1/1 first striker for {W}, this would be a little more appropriate. {W}{W} for a 3/3 first striker seems more appropriate (if you think it's a little bit weak, remember that you're also paying for versatility!)

Dandan's card is pretty riduclous for any X>0, to be honest. White is not supposed to get dumb fat of that quality! Even WWW for a 3/3 first striker is very comparable with the best green has to offer (Troll Ascestic, Trained Armadon, etc.), and 3/3 seems to be where creatures stop being weenies and start being midrange, so moving into greens area of expertise. Maybe if Dandan's suggestion looked more like this:

Knightling
WW
Creature - Knight
Kicker: W
First Strike
If you paid the kicker cost, <this> comes into play with a +1/+1 counter.
2/1

I've limited the kicker because making a white fat creature that's better than those belonging to the green, the 'big creature colour' seems like a bad idea. Not that R&D pay too much attention to that rule of course, see modern T2 for green decks that have nearly everything they need in colour, with the exception of quality fat creatures, supposedly green's biggest strength. Most obviously, Arc Slogger is so much better than any green fat it's ridiculous.

<tangent> If we want a good white 3-drop though, would we be obseleting or breaking anything by simply making a vanilla 3/1 flyer for 1WW or WWW?</tangent>

[dandan]

It would have to be rare. {W}{W} or even {W}{W} for a 3/3 first striker is very powerful. Look at Benalish Lancer to see the power level of a similar card Wizards has already created. Maybe if the base creature were a 1/1 first striker for {W}, this would be a little more appropriate. {W}{W} for a 3/3 first striker seems more appropriate (if you think it's a little bit weak, remember that you're also paying for versatility!)

Dandan's card is pretty riduclous for any X>0, to be honest. White is not supposed to get dumb fat of that quality! Even WWW for a 3/3 first striker is very comparable with the best green has to offer (Troll Ascestic, Trained Armadon, etc.), and 3/3 seems to be where creatures stop being weenies and start being midrange, so moving into greens area of expertise. Maybe if Dandan's suggestion looked more like this:

Knightling
WW
Creature - Knight
Kicker: W
First Strike
If you paid the kicker cost, <this> comes into play with a +1/+1 counter.
2/1

I've limited the kicker because making a white fat creature that's better than those belonging to the green, the 'big creature colour' seems like a bad idea. Not that R&D pay too much attention to that rule of course, see modern T2 for green decks that have nearly everything they need in colour, with the exception of quality fat creatures, supposedly green's biggest strength. Most obviously, Arc Slogger is so much better than any green fat it's ridiculous.

<tangent> If we want a good white 3-drop though, would we be obseleting or breaking anything by simply making a vanilla 3/1 flyer for 1WW or WWW?</tangent>

Context, please remember context. Imagine you have are playing a WW deck. To make the cut at WW CC each creature needs to be pretty damned good. The card I proposed is actually too weak to make the cut for a CC of WW but it does improve as time goes by. A 3/3 First Striker for WWW is very good although WW is not that fond of cards that cost that much. In any case is it better than a 2/2 First striker with Prot Red and Prot Black? Maybe, maybe not, depends on what you are facing. I don't think that at X=1 you can say that this is too good. Good yes, too good no.
Now say you want to plan to use this guy with X=2 or more. A 6/6 First Striker is pretty damned good for WWWWWW (I sure hope you aren't planning on playing any other colours), isn't it? Is it better than a 5/5 flying dragon that locks up an opponent if they manage to kill it? Or a 4/5 Spirit Linked Flyer? Or Jareth? Those who play fat know that evasion is key to any good fattie. Is a 4/4 First Striker better than a Dawn Elemental? A non-evasive creature with no way of protecting itself is a poor finisher.

Benalish Lancer has proven itself to be too weak. That is not a reasonable benchmark for a CC of WW.
Green can get more than one 3/3 for 3 mana. Green gets 5/5 for 4 mana these days. Above that Green just Tooth and Nails and wins.

The Kicker MUST be all W mana. This is clearly pushing the limit of acceptability of power level.

This thread askes the question 'How do you make a creature for the WW slot that is versatile?' I think this is one way.

If the power level is considered to be too strong after serious discussion, I could understand the Kicker being made X+1 although I think that weakens this creature to the extent that it might not make the roster in a serious WW deck.

[Nova442]

It's too strong, Dandan.  At the 3 and 4 spots especially it's a beast.  Do you remember the tempo of Fallen Askari?  How a 2 mana creature could beat the common 3 mana creatures and trade with the 4 mana creatures?  That's what getting a 3/3 first striker for 3 on the play is like.  And being able to always fill in your curve puts it over the top.  We could make a 4/4 first strike for 4 on its own, but not with the option of fitting its size exactly to your mana curve.

Kicker X+1 with X as generic would be much better.  Then you get a 3/3 first strike for a hill giant's cost and have additional flexibility above and beyond that.  Alternatively, lowering the limit for the kicker or something  :shock:

[Matt]

Do you remember the tempo of Fallen Askari? How a 2 mana creature could beat the common 3 mana creatures and trade with the 4 mana creatures?

So we make it a rare. Problem solved for limited, and I would pity the constructed environment that had no answer for this.

[Nova442]

Still too strong to be printed by Wizards but at least it wouldn't make Limited bend over if you did that.

[dandan]

At WWW or WWWW it is hardly a star in most Limited games. And if you draft it you are pretty commited to White (as even a small splash cuts the power of this considerably) so even as a draft bomb it is not ideal.

In Constructed I agree it is right at the limit of 'doability', although is it better than Nantuko Shade? If you have WWWW for your superstar Knightling 4/4 FS, my BBBB allows me to bitchslap you with a 6/5 (and note that my Insect gets more powerful after I cast him too)

I'm not that fond of making the Kicker X+1 (although it is a viable option and almost certainly appeases everyone in terms of power level), anotheroption would be to make this a 2/1 FS for WW instead of a 2/2 FS. The point of toughness doesn't make a huge amount of difference in combat but makes the creature far more fragile to direct damage and pingers. I think I'd prefer to go that way if it is agreed that this needs watering down. In defence of this powerful effect for WWW, WWWW, etc lets hear from Wizards R&D
From Nate Heiss, Magic R&D Intern:
"Having many of the same color of mana in the casting cost encourages that the card is played in one particular color of deck. It also allows us to lower the overall mana cost of a card by increasing the color requirements.
"In essence, it is to preserve the balance of the game while allowing us to make very cool and splashy cards with nothing but upside. Without casting costs like that, we could never have enjoyed cards like Silvos, Rogue Elemental, Rorix Bladewing, Visara the Dreadful, or the ever-popular Serra Avatar."

[Jacob Orlove]

That creature is basically Ivy Elemental with first strike and +1/+1, at the cost of spending only white mana. That's actually very reasonable. Remember, creatures without evasion can be relatively big for their cost, since they don't just win the game.