[Article] Vintage Grab Bag

[Vegeta2711]

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9970.html

New article on loads of randomness. Gogogo.

[alban]

nice 
However, I think TPS is still viable, and worthy looking at.

[M]

Interesting read. A few comments,

-You mention the possibility of a workshop deck running Null Rod which is a novel idea, but you failed to convince me that its possible. Without moxen/lotus and other accel you are stuck with 4 random workshops, so I have to wonder what the deck's mana curve would look like?

-R/G Root Maze decks are played a lot in Denmark because it is one of the best unpowered decks available atm, right beside unpowered FCG and countless unpowered fish variants. But you don't seem to make any distinction between this metagame and the 5- or 10 proxied one. R/G is a true budget deck. It also plays very much like the Sligh decks of old, so including too many cards that don't deal damage (eg Null Rod, REB) might be counterproductive. It's true.

-On the comparison Oath/Orchard vs. Masknought combo,
Orchard and Mask are both useful on their own, but Oath is also useful on its own (Dreadnought isn't).
The Oath/Orchard combo effectively costs 1 mana (or else Oath combo takes up only 7-8 slots).

-Pithing Needle shuts down Bazaar of Baghdad. This is most unfortunate for Dragon decks because they rely heavily on the Bazaar engine. TPS is still the best combo deck, but long term the best combo deck will be the one with the best matchup against Fish.

[Kowal]

Oh, you were finished!  Well allow me to retort!  (Sorry, watching Pulp Fiction right now.)

the possibility of a workshop deck running Null Rod which is a novel idea, but you failed to convince me that its possible. Without moxen/lotus and other accel you are stuck with 4 random workshops, so I have to wonder what the deck's mana curve would look like?

Having seen and tested (briefly) with the concept, I have to say the mana curve sits pretty well at 3 or less.  You get to run lots of Ancient Tombs and nonsense too, and you don't have to avoid running ALL the moxes...  Just a few of them.  Even with 4 workshop, 4 ancient tomb, Lotus, and two moxes, you accelerate faster than the gifts decks, which maintain mana curves of 3-4 (or, in the case of scrying, a million)

-R/G Root Maze decks are played a lot in Denmark because it is one of the best unpowered decks available atm, right beside unpowered FCG and countless unpowered fish variants. But you don't seem to make any distinction between this metagame and the 5- or 10 proxied one. R/G is a true budget deck. It also plays very much like the Sligh decks of old, so including too many cards that don't deal damage (eg Null Rod, REB) might be counterproductive. It's true.

If you're planning on dealing damage, you either have to lock your opponent out of the game (a la 5/3 or fish) or kill them in two turns (a la madness with draw7s)  If you aren't doing either, you are playing a bad deck.  There's a reason the "sligh decks of old" died out.

-Pithing Needle shuts down Bazaar of Baghdad. This is most unfortunate for Dragon decks because they rely heavily on the Bazaar engine. TPS is still the best combo deck, but long term the best combo deck will be the one with the best matchup against Fish.

Pithing Needle is a shitty card that gives the illusion of being versatile by having a range of targets, but is in fact a terribly narrow effect that is only actually very good against Dragon (and other hate is better at hating dragon AND the field)  As such, it's irrelevant.  Also, claiming TPS is the best combo deck without any reasoning to back it up is silly.  TPS goes the same speed as the gifts decks (and actually a little slower than the list smmenen posted two days ago) but it craps out considerably more often. 


Veggies:

I thought this was a little bit more rushed than your usual stuff, but it was still a pretty solid read.  Looking forward to your next.

[M]

If you're planning on dealing damage, you either have to lock your opponent out of the game (a la 5/3 or fish) or kill them in two turns (a la madness with draw7s)  If you aren't doing either, you are playing a bad deck.  There's a reason the "sligh decks of old" died out.

You have to lock your opponent out for exactly long enough time to deal 20 damage. Sligh decks also did that (with Gorilla Shaman and Wasteland). The addition of Root Maze revitalizes and strengthens the game plan, but it is basically the same plan. Other than Gorilla Shaman, the creatures of R/G are chosen for their ability to deal fast damage, and nothing else. Pyrostatic Pillar probably also belongs maindeck for this reason, but adding more or less random disruption (in the form of REB, Naturalize, etc) weakens the deck's ability to consistently deal 20 damage by turn 4 (yes, it is very much "planning on dealing damage"). You don't want to trade cards 1 for 1 until the opponent's draw engine comes online. Fish can do that because Fish has a draw engine of its own.

R/G only wants to delay for 2-3 turns because that is all it needs.
That is what I mean when I say R/G plays like the Sligh decks of old.

[Kowal]

Doesn't change the fact that there are easily a handful of much, much better options than r/g beatz as a cheap aggro foil to the metagame.

[PipOC]

TPS goes the same speed as the gifts decks (and actually a little slower than the list smmenen posted two days ago) but it craps out considerably more often.

This is blatantly untrue.  Gifts decks will tinker for colossus at the same time as TPS will win with tendrils, but they are not the same speed.  Colossus kills 2-3 turns after TPS would be killing the opponent, leaving a large window for colossus to be removed.  No such window exists for TPS.

[carl]

Nice read, thanks.

I barely hear anyone speak of a Mishra's Workshop-based Null Rod deck.

Actually, Robert Vroman plays these card in his latest Uba Stax deck.
Check this thread.

Whatever happened to? Illusionary Mask + Phyrexian Dreadnought

They are doing fine
I managed 5-3-0 with Vengeur Masqué at the French Championships last month (had to drop for the last round).
See the report.

Another deck, GroMask, was never really explored either

Actually, it was played by Paul from Toronto, but with the restriction of Gush, it lost its punch.
Could Thirst for Knowledge be a suitable replacement?

[Polynomial P]

At one point vroman was playing null rod main with dampening matrix side and he has been using null rods for over a month. The deck is very good and difficult to play against. Maybe vroman can comment on it more, but the null rods rarely bother him whereas most other decks cannot handle them in addition to the crucible/waste and smokestacks components.

[Kowal]

This is blatantly untrue.  Gifts decks will tinker for colossus at the same time as TPS will win with tendrils, but they are not the same speed.  Colossus kills 2-3 turns after TPS would be killing the opponent, leaving a large window for colossus to be removed.  No such window exists for TPS.

Making your opponent unable to win is as good as winning as long as you can clean up before the clock runs out.  Gifts will do this on turn three in almost every game, and can often do so turn two if the hand has Black Lotus or Mana Crypt in it.  If you want to claim TPS goes off turn two with regularity, you're an idealist.  I played the deck for a long, long time and it has a tendency to kill turns 3-5 without an opening hand containing lotus or double ritual + bargain.

[Vegeta2711]

Interesting read. A few comments,

-You mention the possibility of a workshop deck running Null Rod which is a novel idea, but you failed to convince me that its possible. Without moxen/lotus and other accel you are stuck with 4 random workshops, so I have to wonder what the deck's mana curve would look like?

-R/G Root Maze decks are played a lot in Denmark because it is one of the best unpowered decks available atm, right beside unpowered FCG and countless unpowered fish variants. But you don't seem to make any distinction between this metagame and the 5- or 10 proxied one. R/G is a true budget deck. It also plays very much like the Sligh decks of old, so including too many cards that don't deal damage (eg Null Rod, REB) might be counterproductive. It's true.

A: The mana curve would mostly be 3/4 cost cards. As Kowal said, with Shops, Tomb and some Moxen you can easily power out Cathodian and Juggs at a quick rate. Plus you get to keep the disruption of the normal Shop decks with Null Rod as well. As long as you lower the mana curve a bit, you can still out-accelerate most of the decks in the format.

B: I don't make the distinction, because I honestly don't care. Sorry. I'm only intrested in how good R/G can be against good decks in a fully powered meta, not unpowered. The fact is if you're deck isn't Burninator, while acting like Sligh decks of old, it's pretty damn awful.

Kowal: Honestly? Yeah it was rushed. I was prepping for Regionals and was pissed off I had such a hard time editing my junk.

TPS goes the same speed as the gifts decks (and actually a little slower than the list smmenen posted two days ago) but it craps out considerably more often.

This is blatantly untrue. Gifts decks will tinker for colossus at the same time as TPS will win with tendrils, but they are not the same speed. Colossus kills 2-3 turns after TPS would be killing the opponent, leaving a large window for colossus to be removed. No such window exists for TPS.

This is blantantly untrue. Gifts decks typically lock up the game and 'win' on turn 4, turn 2/3 with a above average hand. If you don't think that matches the average TPS win rate, well then you either have some weird new list that's super double plus awesome and wins on turn 2 consistently or you haven't tested one of the decks enough. Typically if you lose after DSC has hit the table, you either couldn't win the game period or you randomly Tinkered it out early and got overwhelmed.

Nice read, thanks.

Thanks.

Actually, Robert Vroman plays these card in his latest Uba Stax deck.
Check this thread.

Neat. Didn't see that.

They are doing fine
I managed 5-3-0 with Vengeur Masqué at the French Championships last month (had to drop for the last round).
See the report.

It's nice to see some people using it, I think it's a very underrated and much ostracized combo for what it does.

Actually, it was played by Paul from Toronto, but with the restriction of Gush, it lost its punch.
Could Thirst for Knowledge be a suitable replacement?

Oh I know that, I meant more in the present day. So far my favorite card search / draw for the deck is 4 TFK, 4 Brainstom and 3 Sensei's Divining Top with the usual brokenness. Brainstorm + Top + 7 Fetches and tutors gives you an insane amount of quality in your draws and TFK is a solid way to actually gain card advantage every once in a while. Nothing can replace Gush, but by improving the cantrip quality, you can still cycle through the deck quickly.

[Cross]

Juggernautgo was using forces in his menarch.dec that he placed in the top 4 (i think) at the last waterbury. I also toyed around with them in some workshop aggro builds. They were randomly good but never consistent enough to warrant their inclusion.

[Anders Noer]

Also, claiming TPS is the best combo deck without any reasoning to back it up is silly.  TPS goes the same speed as the gifts decks (and actually a little slower than the list smmenen posted two days ago) but it craps out considerably more often.

If you look at results in Europe, it should be pretty clear that TPS has been THE dominating combo deck of the past year. It's ability to roll over Stax decks pre-Trinisphere restriction, made it one of the top choices in that meta.
The metagame has shifted since then, but TPS is still an amazingly consistant deck.
It shouldn't crap out if played correctly. I see TPS as a slower, more controllish combo deck than the rest - but with an incredible resliilence. It has very good disruption, maindeck bounce to handle hosers and will go off regularly in the opening turns. It's worst matchup is fish type decks, making it less valid at the moment, but it is still a very strong deck. Gifts is overrated to me, but time will tell if I'm wrong. Rector based combo seems just as good to me. But oh well...

[onelovemachine]

I have a lot of issues with this article.  Here I go:

   For example, I barely hear anyone speak of a Mishra's Workshop-based Null Rod deck.... You get to run the typical Workshop goodies like Smokestack, Chalice of the Void, and Tangle Wire, with more powerful creatures than other aggro and Null Rod.

This makes no sense to me whatsoever.  Workshop decks typically run upwards of 28 mana.  All shop decks run 4 shops, 5 moxes, lotus, crypt, sol ring, vault and petal.  Null rod obviously is anti-synergistic with these cards so the solution to this is obviously to cut mana artifacts.  How is that concept even remotely logical?  Let's cut out mana artifacts from shopfat.dec and still play challice of the void so we can make room for null rod.  What?  Seriously, what does null rod give us that challice of the void and gorilla shaman can't?  I say a headache from playing a bad list.  First turning a null rod costing two mana off a shop and turning off your moxen instead of playing the full compliment of mana artifacts and casting a first turn juggernaut off a shop and a mox and following with a challice of the void is just bad magic.  I also fail to see how your creatures get any better by not having access to the mana required to play the best artifact creatures in the game, or which creatures you would play that don't have activated abilities.

  On that note, a deck like Suicide could potentially be viable now 

Obviously there is no suicide list to be commenting on, but in truth I don't see how now is any better a time for mono black than any other time.  Right now fish does everything the cards listed in the article for mono black do but with force of will and better cards in general, and on paper it looks like black loses to fish although I would never embarass myself by claiming to have tested that matchup. 

Whatever happened to? Illusionary Mask + Phyrexian Dreadnought
Think about it for a moment kiddies:
Oath + Forbidden Orchard vs. Masknought combo
Both are two-card combos
Both produce two-turn clocks
Orchard and Mask are both useful on their own
The Oath combo costs 2, Masknought costs 3.
Masknought takes 8 slots and Oath Orchard takes up 11-12 slots
   

Hmmmm.  If we think about this for a moment we discover:  a complete lack of logic.  Both are two turn combos, both are two card combos.  Mask and orchard are useful on their own but the latter is much more useful in general.  However, phyrexian dreadnought as a card is not good.  You cannot make use of dreadnought on its own.  Oath of druids, on its own is an amazing card.  For a two mana investment, you smash teeth.  After that you activate your combo for zero mana.  In addition to being otherwise bad, masknought combo costs more mana, and although it may only be one more mana any good type one player knows how important and relevant that one mana is.

I won't comment on the metagame breakdown, because in my mind, there is no clear metagame at the moment.

[Vegeta2711]

This makes no sense to me whatsoever.  Workshop decks typically run upwards of 28 mana.  All shop decks run 4 shops, 5 moxes, lotus, crypt, sol ring, vault and petal.  Null rod obviously is anti-synergistic with these cards so the solution to this is obviously to cut mana artifacts.  How is that concept even remotely logical? 

*sigh* Yeah so you didn't read the thread, good job, cooke for you.

Here's what you would do. You reduce the curve from 4-6 cost creatures to something along the lines of 3-4 cost creatures. Cathodian for example, along with Juggernaut and such still. Then you add Ancient Tomb since you now have room in the mana-base to do so. As Kowal stated, you'll still out accelerate the majority of decks in the format.

Let's cut out mana artifacts from shopfat.dec and still play challice of the void so we can make room for null rod.  What?  Seriously, what does null rod give us that challice of the void and gorilla shaman can't?  I say a headache from playing a bad list.  First turning a null rod costing two mana off a shop and turning off your moxen instead of playing the full compliment of mana artifacts and casting a first turn juggernaut off a shop and a mox and following with a challice of the void is just bad magic.

Chalice is great and all, but you won't always be able to draw it or play it before your opponent can drop their own acceleration down. Other times it might actually be *gasp* countered or bounced! Having a solid back-up to this is not a bad thing. What does Null Rod give you? First off redundancy. Secondly it not only gives you an additional way to shut down Moxen, but Rod also shuts down: Aether Vial, Mindslaver, Pentavus, Triskellion, Umezawa's Jitte, Sensei's Divining Top among others...

Gorilla Shaman? Huh? None of the 5/3 lists I've seen lately have run it, nor has the most successful one thus far. (Brad's MWS Aggro deck) So that point is sure moot. But I'll indulge for a second, you need to waste your turn 1/2 play on Shaman (i.e. losing your land drop for a shitty turn 1 play) and costing you multiple early game mana to get working. We compare this to turn 1/2 Null Rod, which for a one time fee of 2 colorless automatically shuts down whatever the hell your opponent plays without getting to use it.

I also fail to see how your creatures get any better by not having access to the mana required to play the best artifact creatures in the game, or which creatures you would play that don't have activated abilities.

They get better because you have more time to beatdown. Have you even looked at shop lists lately? The only creature they run with activated abilites that are affected is Triskelion and possibly Karn. That's it. Razormane isn't affected, Titan isn't affected, Cathodian, Juggernaut and Su-Chi sure as hell aren't affected. Oh and look, 3-4 mana creatures that are generally considered pretty solid. Who knew?

So in reality you aren't really losing out on 'best artifact creatures' nor are you really shutting down much else that you would normally run.

Right now fish does everything the cards listed in the article for mono black do but with force of will and better cards in general

Riiight. Fish has tons of maindeck grave hate or cards that shut off the opponents draw engine entirely. Not to mention tutors and removal that doesn't cost 4 + an attack phase to start.  Suicide hits many of the same pressure points as Fish, but does it with more redunancy and in different ways. Plus they hit MORE pressure points in general thanks to the vareity of the disruption the deck can run. Gifts, CS and Oath are all very vunerable to a number of points at the moment. Obviously steps would need to be taken to effectively fight shop aggro, but nothing is perfect.

As for your other complaint.

I was comparing the two combos, never did I say the Masknought combo was BETTER than Oath - Orchard. Jeez.

In addition to being otherwise bad

Yeah because you clearly tested it from the points your bringing up. Just like the rest of your complaints. *rolleyes*

although it may only be one more mana any good type one player knows how important and relevant that one mana is.

Feel free to shut the hell up if you're going to insult me. In case you wonder why I'm responding with such condscension, this and the entire tone of your post is why.

[Jacob Orlove]

If people want to see decklists for modern day suicide, check out this "black fish" thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/index.php?topic=23374.0

Also, note that fish will have a hard time running that 2/1 invitational card that's basically a phyrexian arena.

[Mark_Story]

I think it's important to look ath the number of slots the oath combo consumes.  11-12 slots is quite a big chunk of your deck.  It leaves you a lot less room in your deck, and inherently makes your deck more susceptible to non-basic hate.  I'm not saying that mask-nought is a better combo, but it is far more flexible, in what kind of deck it can go into.  Whereas oath, necessitates a dedication to the oath win in most cases.

[absolute]

I think it's important to look ath the number of slots the oath combo consumes.  11-12 slots is quite a big chunk of your deck.  It leaves you a lot less room in your deck, and inherently makes your deck more susceptible to non-basic hate.  I'm not saying that mask-nought is a better combo, but it is far more flexible, in what kind of deck it can go into.  Whereas oath, necessitates a dedication to the oath win in most cases.

Oath only needs a deck that isn't creature heavy to be useful. 3-4 Oaths and 1-2 creatures is all the combo needs against fish/ws aggro/beats. Considering forbidden orchard takes up so much of a decks area, it may be worth it to build a deck with oath as a tool, and not the only gameplan....then it would not only be better than masknought, but just also more 'flexible'.

[vroman]

I play null rod in my workshop deck bc its top tier mana denial, and thats what stax is all about. sure it turns off my moxen too, but consider that trisphere makes my stuff cost more too, and Id run 4 if I could. the point is that even though it hurts both players, its unbalanced, bc I have workshop. we both get to make 1 land drop a turn, plus as many moxen as we want. w moxes, a nonworkshop deck can conceiably outproduce the workshop deck. eliminate the moxen, and then I have workshops and they have single mana lands, advantage me. further more it hoses so many utility cards and win conditions.
I play exactly the same amount of artifact acceleration as I would in a non n-rod deck. bc artifact mana lets me play a ton of threats and then drop n-rod to seal the deal. even if I draw them after the fact, w bazaars, having dead cards isnt that big a problem, bc you can always cash them in 3:2 for new cards.

[Draven]

I think it's important to look ath the number of slots the oath combo consumes.  11-12 slots is quite a big chunk of your deck.  It leaves you a lot less room in your deck, and inherently makes your deck more susceptible to non-basic hate.  I'm not saying that mask-nought is a better combo, but it is far more flexible, in what kind of deck it can go into.  Whereas oath, necessitates a dedication to the oath win in most cases.

First of all, my computer has been down for a few days, so sorry about bringing this up a little late.

The Oath combo doesn't actually consume 11-12 slots. I don't believe you can count the Orchards as "combo slots" becasue you are going to run those as your mana sources any how. There fore, Oath is only about a 7 card combo (4 Oath, 2 Fatties and a Blessing). That gives you about 25-30 cards for protection/tutor/draw! That is pretty hot IMO.

Persoanlly, I think the Oath is a better combo just becasue it relies on an enchantment vs an artifact. There is a considerable difference in the two right now. There is alot more artifact hate running around than enchantment hate.

I havn't played Oath yet, I am usually a 3-4 cc/Salvagers type player, but I am thinking of trying Oath next month. 

[Vegeta2711]

I think it's important to look ath the number of slots the oath combo consumes.  11-12 slots is quite a big chunk of your deck.  It leaves you a lot less room in your deck, and inherently makes your deck more susceptible to non-basic hate.  I'm not saying that mask-nought is a better combo, but it is far more flexible, in what kind of deck it can go into.  Whereas oath, necessitates a dedication to the oath win in most cases.

The Oath combo doesn't actually consume 11-12 slots. I don't believe you can count the Orchards as "combo slots" becasue you are going to run those as your mana sources any how.

Explain why few, if any, decks run Forbidden Orcahrd if they are only mana sources. The fact is as mana sources they are -worse- than the majority of lands you would play and the fact is Oath is dead in about half your matches without it. As such I count Orchard as part of the combo. You -could- build a version using Oath mainly as defense, but usually the only way to use it proactively is with Orchard.

[Draven]

Okay, I am sorry, I sorta mis-spoke. The Orchards are part of the combo. You do need them, I agree. What I ment is when you run them, you run them in leu of other mana sources, not in addtion to. If your oath deck requires 24 mana sources, you arn't going to run those 24 plus 4 Orchards, you are going to run 4 Orchards and 20 other mana sources. Sorry about the confusion.

Drav-