Anvil of Bogardan + Chains of Mephistopheles

[CrazyMongrel]

would this combo bring to a definitive lock of the game?
ANvil of bogardan+chains of mephistopheles: the first make you draw two cards, while the other says that for each card you draw except the first you have to discard instead but when you disacrd you must draw again and so on. so you empty your hand and no one will ever play anything anymore. or at least i interpret it in this way. i need confirm

thx

[rvs]

it depends on how you define locking the game. Assuming both effects are controlled by the same player, the end result is that nobody gets new cards in their hand (== more cards). There is one window though to play instants. When I'm more awake, I'll try to explain it in detail. (or unless someone else wants to take a stab )

[Toad]

A replacement effect will only affect each event once. This means the card you draw thanks to Chains of Mephistopheles will not trigger the Chains once again. There is no loop here.

419.6a - A replacement effect doesn't invoke itself repeatedly and gets only one opportunity for each event.
Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads "If a creature you control would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals double that damage to that creature or player instead." A creature that normally deals 2 damage will deal 8 damage-not just 4, and not an infinite amount. [CompRules 2003/07/01]

With Chains and Anvil on the board, you'll have your normal draw, then Chains will replace the Anvil draw effect making you discard a card then draw instead, then you'll have to discard a card to the Anvil. This means players can't increse their hand size with this combo on the board.

[Necrologia]

This means players can't increase their hand size with this combo on the board.

Minor nitpick, but that isn't necessarily true. Cards like Necropotence or Fact or Fiction that put cards in your hand, rather than causing a draw, can increase your hand size. That might actually be relevant if someone were to try putting the combo into a psuedo-competitive deck.

[Jacob Orlove]

Squee is also a common choice, and you can still draw one card normally--during your opponent's draw step.

[Fubar]

and you can still draw one card normally--during your opponent's draw step.

Wow, thanks for the chains tip.

[ChemEng]

So is this the right interpretation for a given scenario:

4 cards in hand
Chains and Anvil in play

Draw a card. Hand size goes up to 5.
Anvil's draw is replaced by Chains discard. Hand size goes to 4.
Anvil's forced discard is replaced by Chains. Hand size goes up to 5.

[Nibble]

So is this the right interpretation for a given scenario:

4 cards in hand
Chains and Anvil in play

Draw a card. Hand size goes up to 5.

Right.

Anvil's draw is replaced by Chains discard. Hand size goes to 4.

Not quite. The Chains effect basically turns any 'draw a card' into 'discard a card, then draw a card'. So you'll discard to 4, then draw back up to 5, as part of the same action.

Anvil's forced discard is replaced by Chains. Hand size goes up to 5.

Chains doesn't do a thing to touch discards. Anvil's discard happens as normal, bringing you back down to 4 cards.

[ChemEng]

I see where you get what you are saying. The problem Im having is this part of the card:

If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in a draw step, that player discards a card instead. If the player discards a card, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn’t discard a card, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

Is this part not a discard replacement effect? Why does it only work when the first part of the card triggers?

What about this scenario:

4 cards in hand with Chains in play.
You are targetted by Hymn to Tourach in your main phase.

Do I draw any cards from Chains? Or is the effect the same as it would be without Chains?

[Godot]

@ChemEng
No you do not draw any cards and would randomly discard 2 to Hymn as normal. 

Im gonna break the card up into parts to hopefully make this a little more clear.

Part A: If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in a draw step, that player discards a card instead.
Part B: If the player discards a card, he or she draws a card.
Part C:If the player doesn’t discard a card, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

Its not 2 separate replacement effects where one is for when you draw cards and one for when discard cards.  It works like this:

1) You cast Whispers of the Muse during your mainphase.
2) The draw is replaced b/c of CoM so you discard a card instead.  Part A
3a) If you discard a card b/c of Chains, i.e. if you have more than 0 cards in hand, then you draw a card after the discard.  Part B
3b) If you cant discard a card, i.e. if you have 0 cards in hand, then you mill the top card of your library.   Part C

Note that Part B is worded "If THE player discards..." and not "If A player would discard..." so CoM does nothing to replace discard effecs.

[Nibble]

I see where you get what you are saying. The problem Im having is this part of the card:

If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in a draw step, that player discards a card instead. If the player discards a card, he or she draws a card. If the player doesn’t discard a card, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

Is this part not a discard replacement effect? Why does it only work when the first part of the card triggers?

Yeah, I see where the confusion is coming from. That's correct, the highlighted part is not its own replacement effect, it's a continuation of the original replacement effect. The 'If the player discards a card' part is referencing whether or not they discarded in the first line ('...that player discards a card instead.'). It's there because if you had zero cards in hand, you can't discard a card, so they follow the first action with two clauses: 'If the player discards a card', and 'If the player doesn't discard a card'.

It might help to visualize it kind of sequentially, with two paths, like this:

Code:

If a player would draw a card except the first one he or she draws in a draw step, that player discards a card instead.
    -> If the player discards a card, he or she draws a card.
    -> If the player doesn't discard a card, he or she puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard.

It's all one big messy replacement effect, which only starts when a player draws a card.

What about this scenario:

4 cards in hand with Chains in play.
You are targetted by Hymn to Tourach in your main phase.

Do I draw any cards from Chains? Or is the effect the same as it would be without Chains?

The effect is the same, you discard two cards.


Godot beat me and explained it pretty well, but I'm proud of my work so I'm posting it anyhow. Nyah.

[ChemEng]

Gotcha! That clears up the confusion I was having... Thanks for the help...