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Author Topic: Tinker / Sphere of Resistence  (Read 2968 times)
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« on: August 14, 2005, 04:03:54 pm »

Is it possible to announce Tinker from the stack with a Sphere of Resistence in play, and then sacrifice the Sphere in order to not pay the extra one for the Sphere of Resistence?
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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2005, 04:20:45 pm »

Nope, sphere makes the cost to play tinker from your hand u3, you cannot play the spell from your hand until you allocate u3 for tinker.
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« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2005, 04:25:49 pm »

To add info:

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409.1f The player determines the total cost of the spell or ability. Usually this is just the mana cost (for spells) or activation cost (for abilities). Some cards list additional or alternative costs in their text, and some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost, activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases and minus all cost reductions. Once the total cost is determined, it becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.

409.1g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to play mana abilities (see rule 411, "Playing Mana Abilities"). Mana abilities must be played before costs are paid.

409.1h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed.
Example: You play Death Bomb, which costs {3}{B} and has an additional cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your black spells cost {1} less to play. Because a spell's total cost is "locked in" before payments are actually made, you pay {2}{B}, not {3}{B}, even though you're sacrificing the Familiar.

So before you actually sac the sphere, the mana cost is already determined at 3U.
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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2005, 04:34:38 pm »

Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me.
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« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2005, 05:10:18 pm »

Note, however, that you can sacrifice a Chalice 3 to Tinker, and have the Tinker resolve.
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« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2005, 08:08:41 am »

Note, however, that you can sacrifice a Chalice 3 to Tinker, and have the Tinker resolve.

That is true, but it has to do with the last step of playing spells or abilities (409.1i), where spells and abilities are considered played and any abilities that trigger on this will trigger at this point.  So, if a Chalice of the Void (with 3 counters on it) is in play at this point, then it will trigger and try to counter the Tinker.  If, however, it was sacrificed as part of the cost to play the Tinker (409.1h), then it will not be in play for its ability to trigger when it would trigger (409.1i).

I want to point that out now, as the rule hasn't been mentioned yet and given the context of the question being asked, this may prove confusing.
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« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2005, 06:23:24 pm »

Im gonna ask this in here since it seems to go along with these exact rulings...

At a tournament last weekend a little argument was brought up when a player attempted to play echoing truth off a lions eye diamond activation...

I know that this doesnt work..you have to discard as part of the cost of LEDs activation right.

Once we finally got the pseudo judge to look it up he conceded and went with the ruling that the echoing truth couldnt be played (correctly I believe)

While this was going on somebody brought up affinity and why he believed echoing truth could be played from the LED...

He mentioned that thoughtcast could be announced as a spell for just the blue cost with chromatic sphere out, then use sphere as the blue mana source to pay for the thoughtcast...what he was trying to get at was that when you announce a spell it is technically not in your hand any more and is considered on the stack, even before you pay for the mana cost of it...thus the LED thing would work...(am I making sense?)

His statement was that affinity can check for artifacts, then you can announce the spell, then tap the sphere to gain the blue mana to actually play the spell...it just seemed weird, and I dont quite get how this stack works out...

anybody following me on this one?
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« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2005, 06:29:48 pm »

LED's ability can only be played at instant speed. It cannot be used in the middle of casting a spell (which is when you can use pretty much all other mana sources).

The thoughcast example looks like this:

Announce thoughtcast.
Determine cost (say, 2U thanks to chromatic sphere and some other artifact)
Pay costs (you can sac sphere for U here, because it is a mana ability).
Thoughtcast goes on the stack.

LED cannot be used in the same way.
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« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2005, 06:38:46 pm »

okay but thoughtcast is still technically in hand until it is payed for all the way correct? The argument he was trying to use was that echoing truth was not in his hand when the discard effect happened since it was annouced before the cost was payed...
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« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2005, 06:47:15 pm »

Cards are in your hand until you put them on the stack, which you do after you've selected targets, paid costs, etc. Putting a card onto the stack is the very last step in announcing it.
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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2005, 06:50:16 pm »

k thanks (I love it when im right and sombody playing my teammate is wrong  Razz)
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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2005, 11:16:10 pm »

Actually, it goes on the stack right after you announce it.

Regardless, you can't use the LED to play spells in your hand due to its errata (as previously stated).
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« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2005, 03:56:59 pm »

so you are saying something is on the stack and out of your hand before you have to pay for it??? sorry, that last one confused me (most of this silly question is anyways..I know what the ruling is, its the why that is messing my brain up right now)

the thing that was being said was that you could annouce thoughtcast before paying for anything...the guy was using the argument that it was out of your hand as soon as you announced it BEFORE you paid any costs...

jacob says paying for it is part of the announcement, jebus is saying otherwise?

I know the end effect, which is important I guess...was just trying to clear up the why so I can explain it better next time.
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« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2005, 08:13:00 pm »

Fine, let's just go to the comp rules, with some bolding:

Quote
409. Playing Spells and Activated Abilities

409.1. Playing a spell or activated ability follows the steps listed below, in order.
If, at any point during the playing of a spell or ability, a player is unable to comply with any of the steps listed below, the spell was played illegally; the game returns to the moment before that spell or ability was played (see rule 422, "Handling Illegal Actions"). Announcements and payments can't be altered after they've been made.

409.1a The player announces that he or she is playing the spell or activated ability. It moves from the zone it's in to the stack and remains there until it's countered or resolves.
In the case of spells, the physical card goes onto the stack. In the case of activated abilities, the ability goes onto the stack without any card associated with it. Each spell has all the characteristics of the card associated with it. Each activated ability that's on the stack has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. The controller of a spell is the player who played the spell. The controller of an activated ability is the player who played the ability.

409.1b If the spell or ability is modal (uses the phrase "Choose one -" or "[specified player] chooses one -"), the player announces the mode choice. If the spell or ability has a variable mana cost (indicated by {X}) or some other variable cost, the player announces the value of that variable at this time. If the spell or ability has alternative, additional, or other special costs (such as buyback or kicker costs), the player announces his or her intentions to pay any or all of those costs (see rule 409.1f). You can't apply two alternative methods of playing or two alternative costs to a single spell or ability. Previously made choices (such as choosing to play a spell with flashback from his or her graveyard or choosing to play a creature with morph face down) may restrict the player's options when making these choices.

409.1c If the spell or ability requires any targets, the player first announces how many targets he or she will choose (if the spell or ability has a variable number of targets), then announces the targets themselves.
A spell or ability can't be played unless the required number of legal targets are chosen. The same target can't be chosen multiple times for any one instance of the word "target" on the spell or ability. If the spell or ability uses the word "target" in multiple places, the same object or player can be chosen once for each instance of the word "target" (as long as it fits the targeting criteria).
Example: If an ability reads "Tap two target creatures," then the same target can't be chosen twice; the ability requires two different legal targets. An ability that reads "Destroy target artifact and target land," however, can target the same artifact land twice because it uses the word "target" in multiple places.

409.1d If the spell or ability targets one or more targets only if an alternative, additional, or special cost (such as a buyback or kicker cost) is paid for it, or if a particular mode is chosen for it, its controller chooses those targets only if he or she announced the intention to pay that cost or chose that mode. Otherwise, the spell or ability is played as though it did not have those targets.

409.1e If the spell or ability affects several targets in different ways, the player announces how it will affect each target. If the spell or ability requires the player to divide or distribute an effect (such as damage or counters) among one or more targets, or any number of untargeted objects or players, the player announces the division. Each of these targets, objects, or players must receive at least one of whatever is being divided.

409.1f The player determines the total cost of the spell or ability.
Usually this is just the mana cost (for spells) or activation cost (for abilities). Some cards list additional or alternative costs in their text, and some effects may increase or reduce the cost to pay. Costs may include paying mana, tapping permanents, sacrificing permanents, discarding cards, and so on. The total cost is the mana cost, activation cost, or alternative cost, plus all cost increases and minus all cost reductions. Once the total cost is determined, it becomes "locked in." If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect.

409.1g If the total cost includes a mana payment, the player then has a chance to play mana abilities (see rule 411, "Playing Mana Abilities"). Mana abilities must be played before costs are paid.

409.1h The player pays the total cost in any order. Partial payments are not allowed.

Example: You play Death Bomb, which costs {3}{B} and has an additional cost of sacrificing a creature. You sacrifice Thunderscape Familiar, whose effect makes your black spells cost {1} less to play. Because a spell's total cost is "locked in" before payments are actually made, you pay {2}{B}, not {3}{B}, even though you're sacrificing the Familiar.

409.1i Once the steps described in 409.1a-409.1h are completed, the spell or ability becomes played. Any abilities that trigger on a spell or ability being played or put onto the stack trigger at this time. The spell or ability's controller gets priority.

409.2. Some spells and abilities specify that one of their controller's opponents does something the controller would normally do while it's being played, such as choose a mode, choose targets, or choose how the spell or ability will affect its targets. In these cases, the opponent does so when the spell or ability's controller normally would do so.

409.2a If there is more than one opponent who could make such a choice, the spell or ability's controller decides which of those opponents will make the choice.

409.2b If the spell or ability instructs its controller and another player to do something at the same time as the spell or ability is being played, the spell's controller goes first, then the other player. This is an exception to rule 103.4.

409.3. Playing a spell or ability that alters costs won't do anything to spells and abilities that are already on the stack.

409.4. A player can't begin to play a spell or activated ability that's prohibited from being played by an effect.
Ignore anything I said that contradicts the above, because what I quoted is current and 100% correct.
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« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2005, 08:19:06 pm »

*edit*Jacob posted the rules above while I was typing this out, so I'll edit my quote of the rules out.*/edit*

Now, you'll note that the first thing that happens after announcing the spell is that it moves straight to the stack (409.1a).

Determining the mana cost and paying for the spell isn't done until the very end (409.1f-409.1h).

Now, some people tend to add mana to their mana pool before even announcing the spell.  This is fine, but you also get a chance to do this in the middle of announcing the spell (409.1g).  This is one of the main reasons that mana abilities don't use the stack.  You can actually play them while you are announcing another spell or ability.

The reason you cannot use LED this way is because of the text "Play this ability only any time you could play an instant."  Since you cannot play an instant in the middle of announcing another spell or ability, you are unable to activate the LED in the middle of announcement.

This prevents you from using LED to pay for a spell in your hand.

So yes the spell is no longer in your hand by the time you pay for its cost, however LED's ability is unlike most other mana abilities and cannot be used while announcing a spell.

I hope that clears things up.
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« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2005, 03:42:22 pm »

yes very good thanks...

heh, what happens in the event that somebody just announces a spell and then cannot pay for it for some reason?  Does it just go back to where things were, or does something nasty happen to the player like the spell fizzles or he gets a warning from the judge??? (I cant think of any odd card interactions off the top of my head that would be involved, but lets just assume player A does X action and so player B announces some spell so its out of his hand, but then for some reason (say he added his mana wrong) cannot pay for it....what happens to that spell he announced..does it just revert back to his hand? or is it lost?)

I know im getting every last drop out of this one guys, thanks for being patient with me...
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« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2005, 04:07:33 pm »

If you would take an illegal action (e.g., try to play a spell without being able to pay the costs for it, playing a spell targeting an illegal/non-existant target, etc.) the game reverts back to the point just before that action.  So, you don't lose the spell or anything else, things just go back to the way they were before that point.

At a sanctioned event, you would probably receive a Warning or Caution for a Procedural Error of some kind.  Without being able to know specific circumstances with such a situation, it is impossible to say for certain one way or the other.
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